Let's kick into Ajapa Japa!

[Viraja]

Namaste Viraja,

You (and we all) can pray and wish whatever you want, you will get always what karma has foreseen. A prayer precedes what would have happened anyway.

To have the mindset, that a prayer helps is a gift of Bhakti. But it is also karma - you pray because you are destined to do.

Same with precautionary measures - you cannot change the predestined, but if it is your fate, you will take precautions and thus avert adversity.

Pranam

Namaste IndiaLover,

I am happy to read your thoughts as they are exactly in line with what I think on the subject, and I have been a searcher for long, my knowledge on spirituality related topics goes from intermediate to fairly advanced on many topics.

But I want to add another thought of mine to what you said, just because we are 'in it'.

The goal of free-will is to endow or enable the jeevan to transcend karmas. If karmas cannot be transcended and overly stringent view is adopted on role of destiny (or prayers too viewed as part of destiny), free-will has no role to play.

Therefore I view destiny and free-will as having their own rightful place and share.

How?

We all have Sanjitha, Prarabhtha, and Agami karmas. Sanjitha karma is a sum total of all past karmas. Prarabhdha is part of it assigned for this life, to be expended. Agami is the karma we make anew, fresh in this life.

Given the view, while Prarabhdha (or what we need to spend in this life, that which is already assigned), cannot be transcended. This will come under the department of destiny.

Whereas, the Agami and rest of Sanjitha (that which we have accumulated but not yet assigned to us), can be changed via free-will.

By regular sadhana, we modify our chakras, and our mental constitution. We can reach that goal-state where our psychological baggage are expended this way, without need for undergoing the pain or suffering to expend them.

However the above means of modifying our constitution needs regular and quite involving sadhana for a long time, perhaps an entire lifetime. But, nevertheless, having the potential to alter or modify the nature of our unassigned Sanjitha karmas to the extent we have the power and potential to shape our next lives.

Of course, I view that very strong evil committed in the past cannot be modified even this way.

^There are quite some facets to karma, to consider this way.

Nevertheless, the bottomline is, destiny and free-will each have their own share to the ultimate outcome of what we need to undergo, in this life and the upcoming ones.

*I am unaware how much or how much more you might know, but as I said, this is for the benefit of readers to pour in their thoughts, or use this in retrospect for their meditation. If you know this and have more thoughts to add on, you are most welcome.

Thanks and regards.

[Indialover]

As you know, Viraja, my lessons for daily life come from Mahabharata and the Puranas. Therefore I recommend the story of King Somakanta from Ganesha Purana, it deals with all the three Karmas – in better words the play of papa and punya - in detail. If you like puranic stories it will lift you up.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-ganesha-purana/d/doc116215.html

Somakanta was the best king ever … suddenly he suffered on lepra. Bhrigu told him that, when he died in previous life, Yama asked him: ‚Do you want to experience good or bad karma first in next life?’ Somakanta decided for good karma first. Good karma was used up now. Then Bhrigu mentioned the medicine: ‘Read Ganesha Purana.’

And most important regarding your topic, transcending karma: ‘One must have accumulated innumerable merits in order to enjoy this Purana. The person afflicted with past life crimes loses the negative consequences of the past seven years because of Ganesha's kindness. Only those who are firm in devotion to Ganesha should hear it.’

This closes the circle.

By the way … I would have answered Yama’s question different … I had taken bad karma first. But even here the question arises: Did he have the free will to answer the question or was ‘good karma first’ destined?

Regarding free will, there is so much written about by famous philosophers. I am the one who does not believe in much free will. I see myself as an actor on the stage of the cosmic lila, trying to play my role as good as possible. After having read Advaita I know it’s maya anyway.

Pranam

[Viraja]

As you know, Viraja, my lessons for daily life come from Mahabharata and the Puranas. Therefore I recommend the story of King Somakanta from Ganesha Purana, it deals with all the three Karmas – in better words the play of papa and punya - in detail. If you like puranic stories it will lift you up.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-ganesha-purana/d/doc116215.html

Somakanta was the best king ever … suddenly he suffered on lepra. Bhrigu told him that, when he died in previous life, Yama asked him: ‚Do you want to experience good or bad karma first in next life?’ Somakanta decided for good karma first. Good karma was used up now. Then Bhrigu mentioned the medicine: ‘Read Ganesha Purana.’

And most important regarding your topic, transcending karma: ‘One must have accumulated innumerable merits in order to enjoy this Purana. The person afflicted with past life crimes loses the negative consequences of the past seven years because of Ganesha's kindness. Only those who are firm in devotion to Ganesha should hear it.’

This closes the circle.

By the way … I would have answered Yama’s question different … I had taken bad karma first. But even here the question arises: Did he have the free will to answer the question or was ‘good karma first’ destined?

Regarding free will, there is so much written about by famous philosophers. I am the one who does not believe in much free will. I see myself as an actor on the stage of the cosmic lila, trying to play my role as good as possible. After having read Advaita I know it’s maya anyway.

Pranam

Namaste IndiaLover,

A lovely reply from you!

Jai Ganesha - I'm motivated to read Ganesha Purana and gain insights.

I think I too would have chosen bad karma first. Coming to think about it, bad karma would make us more good karma, because suffering has the merit of conferring increased and accelerated spiritual growth. Don't ask me why? I have first hand experience at it.

Have a lovely day!

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste Viraja,

You (and we all) can pray and wish whatever you want, you will get always what karma has foreseen. A prayer precedes what would have happened anyway.

To have the mindset, that a prayer helps is a gift of Bhakti. But it is also karma - you pray because you are destined to do.

Same with precautionary measures - you cannot change the predestined, but if it is your fate, you will take precautions and thus avert adversity.

Pranam

Hare Krsna Indialover,

This is not a challenge to you, as its something that is commonly accepted within modern publicised advaita Vedanta, and in another post you said you read in Advaita there is no free will, i have noticed over the past couple of years that quite a few people attach no free will to vedanta, the ramana maharshi follows, especially Roberts Adams, Rupert Spira and other contemporary Vedanta teachings also claim the same things , which you could then attach the quoted words of karma and fate as predestined with the theory of no free will.

Personally i dont accept this as either the teaching of Vedanta nor can see it within my own experience. I'm just wondering why this is becoming more popular especially on we have no free will and the old belief that everyone's destiny is fixed before birth and one plays out their karma, how do they arrive at this conclusion according to Vedanta.

Maybe this is not the right thread, if Viraj allows i would like to understand more about this, as i forget which post you said about no free will as coming from something you read in Advaita Vedanta. You can also skip answering if you wish.

My take on this is that at Birth a person is in Tabula Rasa, which means unconditioned, a blank slate, but through genetics they may carry certain things which cant be changed, like in a seed only one type of plant will grow, but is everything predestined within that seed as it manifests into a tree or plant, obviously a pomegranate seed is not going to produce oranges, but the taste, shape and destiny of these fruits is that also predestined before ripening. The living entity is conditioned by its surrounding, which can take on infinite states of being, all dependant on causes and conditions, this shapes the person, the views the attitudes the beliefs and so on. This state as known as nitya bhada, or eternally conditioned by the modes with no chance of escaping the influence of those condition's as its self perpetuating, in this way, the unawaken being controlled by the modes of nature has no free will, up to this point i can accept as they proclaim in psychology and other sciences that there is no free will, this is only part of our being so its only a partial truth thats within a limited identity.

As you say about prayer, a person will pray for something if it is inbuilt within the persons destiny and karma, if its not then they wont do it.

What this says to me is a partial understanding of our being which has no free will because its programmed either by genetics and environments is considered the whole Truth about our being, its not that free will or no free will does not exists within a certain paradigm of consciousness but its a partial truth, not Absolute.


Its not just you im questioning, but the whole theory of free will and how it is related to Vedanta and what the basis of free will and no free will is and where Vedanta supports this.

This subject seems to be in vogue, i think if its discussed and understood in the right way it brings one closer to understanding what is meant by Mukti or liberation and transcendence, what it means to be free and what it means to be bound, what are the causes for bondage and what are the causes for liberation, to be infinite and not held back by conditions that force the living entity in action, and what that actually means in the effect and experience of being a liberated or awakened person, it will help in the future also to know how to get and receive and accept or reject teachings and make sure that they are valid, which then makes them effective.

Hare Krsna

[Indialover]

I had already wondered that this post didn’t annoy you, Markandeya 108 dasa. I only overflew the effusion.

I read the ancient scriptures of India and of the Greek scriptures those of the stoics. I read Sri Aurobindo’s Savitri, Goethe’s Faust and West-Est Divan, Nietzsche’s Zarathustra, just to mention some. May be your heard about them - I never heard about the great minds you refer to.

My view of things developed out of all that reading. I make no claim that it is correct.
Free will has nothing to do with Advaita, I mentioned Advaita in connection with Maya.

All old mystics see man as part of the cosmic play. The West and the so-called modernity have demystified the world, want to explain everything rationally, want to describe what cannot be described with words, want to describe what is neti neti, not this, not that.

I have experienced in my life that things work out for the best if I don't intervene, if I let it flow.

Since I am reading German books, only two quotes I quickly found in proper English about free will, that inspire me. There is not any need that they inspire you.

The Greek philosopher Cleanthes
Conduct me, Zeus, and thou, destiny, wherever thy decree has fixed my lot. I follow willingly; and, did I not, wicked and wretched would I follow still.

Whoe'er yields properly to Fate is deemed wise among men, and knows the laws of Heaven.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3Achapter%3D53

And finally Duryodhana – the first in heaven after war! – in Pandava Gita verse 57/58

I know what is right but I am not able to practice it; I know what is wrong and I am not able to keep away from it. I act as I am directed to by some mysterious power that is seated in my heart. I am but a machine, Oh Madhusudana! As I am a machine, so you are the one who runs this machine. Please forgive the faults of this machine! Please do not blame me for what I do! (I do not like the term ‘machine’, I would change it to marionette or string puppet.)

Krishna in Bhagavad Gita III.27 - a little different - according to the Sankhya philosophy

All activities are carried out by the three modes of material nature. But in ignorance, the soul, deluded by false identification with the body, thinks itself to be the doer.

If we could leave it at that, please. I want to stay with my view of things, as I admit this to you. Holding a court after every post is a waste of time. Please do not start a new riot.

Pranam