Why Shiva never worships anybody whereas Vishnu worships him in all his incarnations?

[SanatanDharmYogi]

Prosperous and Auspicious Maha Shivratri to all!



I am really curious to know why this is so that, Shiva never worships anybody whereas Vishnu worships him in all his incarnations? In this context the only thing I have ever come to know is that Shiva only chants Ram naam (but I thought Shiva chants AUM), and this is also reflected in his rudra avatar Hanuman serving Ram, besides that I have never come across any story that Shiva ever chanted any other name of Vishnu. Vishnu has worshiped Shiva in all his human incarnations - Parshuram, Ram and Krishna.



Parshuram worshipped Shiva and Shiva blessed him with his axe Parshu.



Ram worshiped Shiva and established Rameshwaram (Eshwar of Ram) before he crossed the Indian Ocean to get to Lanka, and Ram also worshiped Durga during the nine nights of battle with Ravan.When Ram wanted to do repentance (Paschaataap) after killing Ravan (a brahmin) he asked Hanuman to establish a Shivling where he worshiped Shiva again.



Krishna asked Arjun to worship Shiva before the battle of Kurukshetra and ask for his blessings and blessed him with Pashupastra. Also, Krishna asked Hanuman (Shiva's rudra avatar) to help them in the battle of Kurukshetra. If Krishna was all powerful why was there a need to do all this? Also, Krishna worshiped Shiva to have a son. (Krishna + Jambhvati = Samba)

Now I do not want the made up arguments born out of any sort of complex that Krishna did that to glorify Shiva, or that is his Leela (common and possibly the only two explanations from ISKCON-ites). There is no need for one glorifying the other, either way.



I love Krishna, Rama, Shiva equally, so I am looking for a reply from a more neutral perspective rather than from sectarians (Vaishnavas/ISKCON-ites/Shaivites), especially Vaishnavas, no thank you. All you'll do is relentlessy quote Bhagwad Puran and Bhagwad Geeta. And no, Bhagwad Puran is not superior to other Puranas, they are all superior for the practitioners of Bhakti Yog.



All that sectarians do is quote Puranas written by humans like us. Puranas are sectarian and I do not find them neutral from any angle. Puranas came much much later than Vedas and there are even several other scriptures in between.I may take a chance here and say Puranas are similar in concept (not same) as Bible. They are a doctrine where you do not seek, you just believe.Bhaav and Bhakti are the main ingredients in Puranas (nothing wrong though) so if I am looking at a deity with the prism of love and surrender then superiority complex is deemed to set in because, my daddy has to be the strongest otherwise why would I love/surrender unto him/her?

Rishis/Yogis (spiritual scientists/seekers) follow Vedas
Pundits/Bhaktas (believers) follow Puranas



I also have trouble accepting the all pervading, the all powerful is only a male. My mind does not accept Vishnu without Lakshmi, Ram without Sita, Shiva without Shakti, and so on. Krishna is even more confusing here, Rukmini and Krishna or Radha and Krishna? Bulb without electricity?



I have not read Vedas myself but I think the main deities (if I may say so) in them are the five elements and Shiv Shakti. The Shiva and Shakti in Vedsas are different from Shiva and Shakti in Puranas.



In Vedas they are not the ascetic Shiva, and Parvati is not the daughter of a mountain, but they are the energy fields/scientific concepts the one denoted by Shivalinga. Neutron, Proton, Electron, Quarks and so on.Vedas are non-sectarian. Vedas spiritually scientific. Vedas are what a real Sanatan Dharm Yogi will follow, and the others Hindus/Vaishnavas,ISKCON-ites, and so forth follow Puranas. That is my understanding.



I want to know Shiva Shakti as a scientific concept, as an energy field, the one they say has no beginning and no end, were never born and can never die.

[Indialover]

Namaste SanatanDharmYogi

You mix a lot together … I read it with interest and try the attempt to untangle it a little according to my knowledge. Be aware that the Indian scriptures are so vast and the matter is so complex that any of your thoughts would need a deep multi-page description.

To show what we are talking about
The Vedas (divided into 4 Vedas, 6 Vedangas, 4 Upavedas and each Veda is divided into another 4 parts), the Itihasas (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and the Puranas (18 Mahappuranas and 18 Upapuranas consisting of Panchalakshana – five characteristics) are differenct genres of scriptures, addressing different genres of readers. It is up to you what you choose.

The all pervading, the all powerful is not only a male. Brahman appears in the Upanishads as nirguna, without form. With form, male and female, Brahman appears in the Puranas. Brahman in Vedanta is neti neti - not this not that.

Krishna and Radha is a mystical connection. Radha is the soul, yearning for the union with the Lord. Krishna and Radha are not married, they live in the mystical land of Vraj. Krishna and Rukmini are puranic characters, they are married and live in Dwaraka. Two totally different connections, addressing two different kinds of Bhaktas.

About Shiva and Parvati the Puranas talk. Shiva Shakti is Tantra.

Your point ‚Krishna’s son‘.
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva as the Trimurti are the eternal cosmic cycle of ‚to create, to sustain, to annihilate‘. Shiva annihilates so that Brahma can create - ‚Die and Become‘.

Vishnu as the sustainer cannot annihilate, thus he had to ask Shiva for a son. The aim was to destroy Dwaraka and the Yadavas. The son’s name was Samba. Samba is also a name of Shiva. Same when Arjuna asked Shiva for Pashupata. Arjuna got the destroying energy from Him.

In Kalki Purana in Chapter III we learn that Parashurama will be the guru of Kalki. Kalki too will pray to Shiva.

A condensed version of Kalki Purana can be read here
https://www.astrojyoti.com/kalkipurana.htm

There is another interaction between Vishnu and Shiva - Mohini. Whenever Shiva needs help He asks Vishnu to appear as Mohini.

Bhasmasura was killed by Mohini.
Ayyappa is the son of Mohini and Shiva.
In Darukavana Mohini and Shiva teached the sages a lesson.
When Amrita was distributed Mohini tricked the demons.
Mohini was also involved in the creation of Hanuman. Shiva was fascinated by her dance and granted her a wish. She asked for his semen.

This all is the interaction of cosmic powers, the cosmic lila, a mystery that cannot be grasped by intellect.

Pranam

[Indialover]

Namaste

I found something new to me about the Puranas in connection with a work of Madhva. I am posting it here to point out the depth of the scriptures and that anyone who is not a member of Vedic culture should refrain from any assessment.

~ * ~

Never take the Puranas literally. Be ware of the 3 types of Languages, Puranas use 3 types of languages to convey their messages. As an example: The statements 7.1.29 to 7.1.32 from Srimad Bhagavat (Quoting the most famous below)
Gopyah Kaamaat Bhayaat Kamso
Dweshaat Chaityaadadayo Nripaah
Sambadad Vrishnyah Snehad
Yooyam Bhaktya Vayam Viboh

Gopis attained Krishna through Love, Kamsa through fear, while Shishupala, Paundraka etc through hatred.

This statement is used to justify God can be attained by hatred also.

However we need to remember that Puranas are written in Bhasha Traya (3 kinds of languages) - Samadhi, Darshana and Guhya.

Samadhi Bhasha means something is written as it is.

Darshana Bhasha means something is written as it appears (may not be actually as it is), and VedaVyasa wrote as it appeared to whoever was watching it (not necessarily Vyasa's point of view always)

Guhya Bhasha means something totally different is written whereas the meaning is entirely different.

Even though Vyasa wrote the Puranas, he used all the 3 languages. He knew things would get complicated and hence wrote Laxana Granthas. Unfortunately for us, all the Laxana Grantha meant for interpreting the Purana stories symbols and messages are lost.

Hence we have to interpret the Puranas now based on acceptable PramANas (Vedas[Shruti], PancharAtra, mUla rAmAyaNa, Smrtis in accordance with Shrutis) and nirNAyaka Brahma Sutra.

That's when this particular Shishupal incident described above becomes evident was written in Darshana Bhasha (i.e. as it appeared to few viewers of killing of Shishupal at Rajasuya that the atma inside him reached Krishna, whereas it is said that it is the Jaya in him reached Krishna and not the real Asura atma present in that body.

So after reading the Puranas in the context of pramANas, the Virodha Bhakti is not true.

~ * ~

I would appreciate if someone could tell me the meaning of ‚Jaya‘ in this context.

Source https://archive.org/stream/TatvavAda-Upload1/PuranasClassification_djvu.txt

Pranam

[anirvan]

beautiful post, pranam

[Viraja]

I am really curious to know why this is so that, Shiva never worships anybody whereas Vishnu worships him in all his incarnations? In this context the only thing I have ever come to know is that Shiva only chants Ram naam (but I thought Shiva chants AUM), and this is also reflected in his rudra avatar Hanuman serving Ram, besides that I have never come across any story that Shiva ever chanted any other name of Vishnu. Vishnu has worshiped Shiva in all his human incarnations - Parshuram, Ram and Krishna.

Namaste,

This thread has been around for so long, finally I'm motivated to also share my 2c.

Like the OP, I too ponder deeply about so many details and observations around the mythological tales. Rather, I have the habit of matching up this piece with that piece from a totally different tale and arrive at a conclusion, although I don't share this conclusion with anyone, it offers me some more understanding.

For example, Lord Varadaraja of Kanchi instructed Sri Thirukachi Nambi to teach 6 tenets of Srivaishnavism to Ramanujacharya. The foremost of them being 'Ahameva Para Tattwam' (as clarified by Lord Varadaraja/Vishnu himself) which means, "I am the supreme parabrahman".

In the tale of Bhikshatana, we see that Lord Shiva comes to the Daruka forest accompanied by Vishnu in the female form and how the rishi wives and sons were enamored by their beauty and all. Vishnu has not been a female only in this tale, in the famous tale of the Mohini avatara too, we see that Vishnu is the one who took the female form, as Mohini.

Astrologically, Vishnu is the adhi-devata for planet Mercury, the Eunuch. He is neither male nor female.

So going by the above 2 tales (Bikshatana and Mohini), I have personally concluded that Vishnu is the paramatma present in all living souls. This is confirmed by Lord Varadaraja's declaration.

But behold! I am not saying Shiva is any less. I just am trying to present the above information first before sharing what I think about all of it put together.

I think Shiva and Vishnu both have very unique responsibilities to share. Vishnu is the paratattwa, Shiva -- the ultimate sign-off authority for anything divine, perhaps? In the very same Bikshatana tale, we see that Shiva becomes a fiery tower of flame, thus being associated with power.

In the cosmic form of Nataraja, Shiva is said to dance in various ways to make different things happen on the cosmic level, including creation and destruction. This and many, many tales where Shiva subdues Yama, Vasuki the serpent king, Kama (Manmadha) and many others, we purely witness Shiva's level of power and authority.

Which finally means to me, whereas Vishnu plays the role of the silent witness (paramatma) inside all souls, Shiva is the sole authority for any incident at the cosmic level.

I am not sure if the above answers your question, but coming to the above conclusion, I think that all Vishnu avataras were perhaps aware of this and had the same understanding about Shiva, and thus prayed to him for protection and welfare!

(Also as a side note, I would like to mention, during puranic and vedic times, there might not have been pure Shaivism or Vaishnavism, so people loved both Shiva and Vishnu and saw them both as their own).

Hope this helps some readers!

[Indialover]

Namaste

Vishnu to Shiva in Madhva’s Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, Chapter 22, Verses 158 – 160

“O Shiva, the powerful one! I shall create scriptures that will cause illusion to those who are evil. You too compose such works. Get others to compose such works too. Convey things that don’t exist as if they do. Speak about things such that they convey a different meaning. Explain things as if you are the Supreme one. Do not reveal my greatness. In order to confuse the world I shall worship you. Otherwise, the Asuras cannot reach Tamas. Thus is my opinion”.

Pranam

[powerofmantra]

Lord Shiva Worship Lord Vishnu and Lord Vishnu Worship Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma worship Gayatri maa.

[oleg.goro]

Namaskar!
Ishvara-tattva of Bhagavan Shri Shiva is reflected in Shruti (Rig-Veda 1.43.4-5, 2.33.9, 6.49.10, 7.46.1-2; Krishna Yajur-Veda Taittiriya-samhita 4.5, 4.7; Satapatha-brahmana 9.1.1 , 6; Shvetashvatara Upanishad 1.7-12, 2.15-17, 3.1-21, 4.7-15, 4.21, 5.1-7, 6.1-12, 6.15-21). Bhagavan Shri Krishna, initiated into the Pashupati cult (Mahabharata 'Ganguli' 13.14.379-380, 13.15), claims that Bhagavan Shri Shiva is also Ishvara (Mahabharata 10.17.6-9, 13.14-18, 13.145-146). Bhagavan Sri Krishna gives us Sri Siva-sahasranama and other hymns for worship (Mahabharata 7.172-173, 13.15, 13.17.30-150), the benefits of which are beyond doubt (Mahabharata 3.38-41, 7.57, 8.24, 10.6-7, 12.343- 344; Garuda Purana 4.36). Bhagavan Shri Vishnu manifests himself as Bhagavan Shri Shiva (Narayana Upanishad 2; Bhagavad-gita 10.23, Mahabharata 3.187.3-7; Bhagavata Purana 4.30.23, 5.21-23, 8.7.29, 11.16.13, 11.16.20). In the thousand names of Bhagavan Shri Vishnu are the names of Bhagavan Shri Shiva (27 shivah, 38 shambhuh, 114 rudrah, 491 mahaadevah, 600 shivah). Bhagavan Shri Vishnu is identical with Bhagavan Shri Shiva (Mahabharata 12.328.19-24; Harivamsa 125.17-41).

[oleg.goro]

All Devas are one Brahman (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 3.9.1-9, Maitri Upanishad 4.5-6).

[SuryaVedanta754]

Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma are not three beings. They are One Being. They are different names for different aspects of the same One God.

in general, from the writings of Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda and Sri Chinmoy...

(In 2007, Sri Chinmoy was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Sri Chinmoy conducted meditations at the United Nations for about 30 years and at the US Congress for about 20 years.)