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Thread: Surrender, its approach and implications

  1. #1
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    Surrender, its approach and implications

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kaos
    Namaste yajvan and all, Why seek the how outside of ourselves.

    Namaste Kaos, (et al.)
    If it is ok with you, I thought to lift this out of the current folder of
    Abrahamic Religions and God Realization conversation. The string there has a different purpose. So with your insights , and the HDF Members, I would like to address this... perhaps there are golden nuggets in this conversation.
    • Painted cakes to do not satisfy hunger, say the wise. To talk of the cake, yet not showing the hungry how to obtain the cake leaves one still in need. There is no doubt that 'seeking' is inside of us, as that is where the SELF resides.
    • Yet for many on this forum, we look for the practical instuction , or discussion, on how to do this. You have been kind enough to tell is about the cake e.g. 'all living entities should surrender to His control and that surrender will make them happy' - Please now help HDF on the how; we know it is INSIDE us, now what does one do to unfold this?
    • If you asked an HDF member, please tell me how to walk... they would instruct, pick up one foot, place it forward, shift your weight and as you go forward, bring the other foot forward, and your locomotion will send you walking...The instruction is practical, I have a meausre of progress i.e. I have moved forward, yes? I can see I am making progress by the meters or inches I have progressed.
    Like that Kaos, if you can, and have the skills of this, lets us know how to surrender. The practical method, the measure one should look for - for moving forward.
    If this is not within your skillset, that too is fine. If you have surrendered, and are making progress, then the stars rejoice in your progress. Perhaps you are lost for words as this is a subtle matter.

    We on HDF are simple people and open minded - so as one gives suggestions, we also look for the 'blue print' a hint, a direction , on how to achieve ones suggestions.

    If you do not know how to accomplish this, then you can ask others on the forum, this is where one leaves their ego at the door.

    Let noble thoughts come to us from every side - Rig-Veda, 1-89-i
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Namaste yajvan and all.

    Thank you yajvan for moving this topic to a separate thread.
    Yes, the Lord is the Supreme Controller and is giving directions as He desires. Therefore, we, prakrti are controlled. Realizing that is the kind of surrender that will make us happy.

    In the Bhagavad Gita (7-5), Krishna says:

    "Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, consisting of all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."


    In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4

    ekasyaiva mamamsasya
    jivasyaiva maha-mate
    bandho 'syavidyayanadir
    vidyayaca tathetarah

    The living entity jiva is part and parcel of the Supreme. But due to ignorance, the living entity has been suffering from material bondage from time immemorial. By knowledge, however, the living entity can be liberated.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  3. #3
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    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaos View Post
    Namaste yajvan and all.

    Thank you yajvan for moving this topic to a separate thread.
    Yes, the Lord is the Supreme Controller and is giving directions as He desires. Therefore, we, prakrti are controlled. Realizing that is the kind of surrender that will make us happy.

    In the Bhagavad Gita (7-5), Krishna says:

    "Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, consisting of all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."


    In the Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4

    ekasyaiva mamamsasya
    jivasyaiva maha-mate
    bandho 'syavidyayanadir
    vidyayaca tathetarah

    The living entity jiva is part and parcel of the Supreme. But due to ignorance, the living entity has been suffering from material bondage from time immemorial. By knowledge, however, the living entity can be liberated.

    Namaste Kaos,
    All wonderful quotes, thank you...yet I fail to grasp how these assist the seeker to surrender, the 'how to'. I have read these quotes and am still lacking putting 2+2 together to = surrender and the instructions thereof. My dear Kaos, let me be bold in saying, you are missing the point.

    The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first. As I see you are using Srila Prabupada's veribage from the Gita, a recommedation may perhaps would be to take a look at his commentary of Chapt 9, sutra 2 and 3, Here you will find the beginning of the answer given by Srila.

    If we revert back to Chapters 2 and 3 this is the foundation for surrender being laid there. One must have the level of Being established. Sri Krsna , Jagadguru, the Most Wise , lays this out systematically in the Gita.
    Surrender is not a 'mood making'. One day I really 'feel' close to Him, the next day, I am not much interested in this and have other things to pursue. I am not suggesting these are your words or intent; it is the example of going from mood to mood, provoked by the graha's , the 3 gunas. Life tosses us here and there in this world. We Stop being tossed when we become established in the SELF; we are now capable to surrender, and this surrender will now be fruitful to pursue.

    Surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord. We can do the best we can before this experience of turiya, of Brahman, but its based upon the mind and thinking, not the depth of Being. One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of what you have rightfully pointed to , that of prakriti, or the 3 gunas.

    Kesava says be without the 3 guna's back in Chapt 2. This is the foundation for surrender, for service (if one wishes to serve). One needs to surrender from the level of the SELF, then one is capable of this , a proper way of surrendering. Before this, it is mood-making like a ship with no rudder; Surrendering without confirmation from HIM, that a relationship has taken place. It is the state of transcendental consciousness that is needed for the beginning of this surrender to unfold.

    Thanks for listening - I ask other HDF Members to bring thier skills and knowledge to this converdsation and take it further...there is much more we can comment on, if desired.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first.

    That's right, the surrender must come from the Self, as He desires.

    And yes, surrender does not come by mere intellectual learning...
    Thank you for re-iterating that.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  5. #5

    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    An analogy would be like that of the arm that cannot function properly without the nutrition provided by the stomach.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  6. #6
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    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaos View Post
    An analogy would be like that of the arm that cannot function properly without the nutrition provided by the stomach.
    hummm...
    Last edited by yajvan; 18 June 2007 at 09:47 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7

    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Namaste Kaos,
    All wonderful quotes, thank you...yet I fail to grasp how these assist the seeker to surrender, the 'how to'. I have read these quotes and am still lacking putting 2+2 together to = surrender and the instructions thereof. My dear Kaos, let me be bold in saying, you are missing the point.

    The way to surrender must come from the SELF, establishd in the SELF first. As I see you are using Srila Prabupada's veribage from the Gita, a recommedation may perhaps would be to take a look at his commentary of Chapt 9, sutra 2 and 3, Here you will find the beginning of the answer given by Srila.

    If we revert back to Chapters 2 and 3 this is the foundation for surrender being laid there. One must have the level of Being established. Sri Krsna , Jagadguru, the Most Wise , lays this out systematically in the Gita.
    Surrender is not a 'mood making'. One day I really 'feel' close to Him, the next day, I am not much interested in this and have other things to pursue. I am not suggesting these are your words or intent; it is the example of going from mood to mood, provoked by the graha's , the 3 gunas. Life tosses us here and there in this world. We Stop being tossed when we become established in the SELF; we are now capable to surrender, and this surrender will now be fruitful to pursue.

    Surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord. We can do the best we can before this experience of turiya, of Brahman, but its based upon the mind and thinking, not the depth of Being. One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of what you have rightfully pointed to , that of prakriti, or the 3 gunas.

    Kesava says be without the 3 guna's back in Chapt 2. This is the foundation for surrender, for service (if one wishes to serve). One needs to surrender from the level of the SELF, then one is capable of this , a proper way of surrendering. Before this, it is mood-making like a ship with no rudder; Surrendering without confirmation from HIM, that a relationship has taken place. It is the state of transcendental consciousness that is needed for the beginning of this surrender to unfold.

    Thanks for listening - I ask other HDF Members to bring thier skills and knowledge to this converdsation and take it further...there is much more we can comment on, if desired.

    pranams,
    Namaste Yajvan,
    Thank you for the post, and for inviting Members to bring their skills and knowledge. I have little of either but if you would humor me on comments?
    I like your questions, and I notice that sometimes more can be learned from questions than from any other mode. At least it's so in my own case.

    When you say that surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord, I think the converse may be also true that devotion can just as well bring surrender; in other words repeatedly performing acts of devotion to the Lord can bring one to the point of surrender. Would you agree?
    Because although I also agree with you that as you say, One needs to be established in ones own SELF, outside of prakriti, the very acts of selfless devotion performed over a period of time will gradually lead one to focus less on sense organs and increasingly toward a higher mindfulness or awareness, bringing it outside of prakriti and the 3 gunas. Perhaps mood-making, while not a permanent transformation of course. A ship with no rudder might not take you across the sea, but could it perhaps keep you afloat until you encounter one that will? So mightn't it be a step toward selflessness? And selflessness must surely be a step toward surrender.
    Would you correct me if You disagree?

    I realize the scope of your conversation with Kaos is on a deeper philosophical plane than these points, but its where I am.
    There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.


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    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    namaste Kaos,
    We are asking for the 'practical steps' on how to do 'surrender' to the Lord.

    Yajvan, perhaps our friend nirotu may join this conversation. From his posts on HDF, it seems that he is the only one that knows how to hold the hand of the Lord.

    I even asked this question earlier in another thread but no one replied. Let's hope that we get some practical steps here. I am very interested to know how to surrender.
    satay

  9. #9

    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    I feel that surrender and para bhakti or true devotion comes at the end of the stick of knowledge. That is what Gita indicates too in my mind.

    Though devotion is a great tool available for humans in the path of self-knowledge, but devotion without quest for jnana can border on melodrama and have been overemphasized in the declining periods of dharma.

    And finally the only practical way to surrender which is essentially God realization is surrendering at the feet of the Guru. I don't believe there is any other way in Sanatana Dharma. Whatever we practice before the preceptor arrives is just ground work and preparation.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Surrender, its approach and implications

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by mirabai View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,
    I like your questions, and I notice that sometimes more can be learned from questions than from any other mode. At least it's so in my own case.

    When you say that surrender brings one to devotion of the Lord, I think the converse may be also true that devotion can just as well bring surrender; in other words repeatedly performing acts of devotion to the Lord can bring one to the point of surrender. Would you agree? I realize the scope of your conversation with Kaos is on a deeper philosophical plane than these points, but its where I am.
    Namaste mirabai, sm78 and satay (et.al),
    First let me say mirabai, your observation is brilliant! And satay, your request for a 'practical approach' is the cornerstone of spiritual progress and our desire on this HDF to be simple, practical people. We should be relentless on this question when one posts - that is 'what does that mean? how does one apply this to my (Our) sadhana?' . Like that. And satay you accomplish this with your posts regularly, thank you.
    Even Krsna teaches that in the final analysis, our spiritual development is a practical thing, it is 'skill in action' that one receives when we choose to develop our full potential, because we live in an a action ( karma-kriya) world. He says, Yoga is Skill in Action ( Bhagavad Gita 2.50)

    We quote scriptures often which is a boon for all that read them, yet it's the insight that comes with this. Even if we are unsure of its total meaning, trying to offer a view, as we are now doing from many who post on HDF is the grooming of the unfoldment process, a study in learning, and no effort is ever lost.

    Devotion and Surrender
    So mirabai, this devotion and surrender is two sides of the same coin. This devotion , this bhakti, is to be one pointed, focused , must come from the true bhakta ( from bkaj ' to revere, worship, love').

    If one is not established in his/her true SELF, then his/her devotion will be covered by foreign elements - things that are not universally Me - likes & dislikes, invalid emotions that come and go, inspired, then not inspired; the winds of time and graha's acting upon us that influence the kosha's (or those things that surround our true SELF). It's the sheaths ( the kosha's) that prevent the direct contact with the Lord. In other words one needs to be on the same wavelength as the Lord to surrender, to give devotion. Before this is admirable and we do the best we can, and this is ok, but lacking - let me explain.

    So bare with me here on this next part... if one is not established in the SELF, this universal, cosmic (just meaning Brahman level, all pervading) level of being, then one's surrender or devotion may be something like this: I am doing this action for the sake of the Lord, but actually I am not doing it, as it is the 3 guna's; I have no desire for its fruits because I am non-attached, like the scriptures say I should be, and I do not care about its fruits. Here lord, here are my actions. This is the mood making I alluded to , pretending, yet well intended and with absence of malice.

    When one is naishkararmyam, freedom from binding influence of action, one lives in the SELF. Actions are done by the right owners, the gunas. I am capable of offering something that is pure to the Lord, the SELF. This is SELF Surrender, that blossoms to devotional states in God Consciousness.

    Why is it God Consciousness? because one has a relationship with Him/Her..it's not pretending. One see's, smells, touches Her creation. One is established in Brahman, Bhuma ( this fullness) what incentive does desires have ( sankalpha) for the native? All desires are here to fill some lack. In Brahamn, there is no lack, no want, and hence, devotion in its true sense, can be offered (surrendered) because it is done without ulterior motive. It is done from a level of fullness and joy - thus this level of SELF, this is the passport.

    Getting there
    Now, satay must ask, how does one get there?

    There are 3 levels of silence that brings one to this fullness of Being.
    Krsna says in Chapt 5 of the Gita, calmness is said to be the means. This is a most excellent guide. Restful alertness as my teacher calls it... this is the experience of pure consciousness, groomed and cultivated by transcending in meditation, regularly.

    - Transcendental consciousness ( some may say turiya, without distinction or distraction; this puts you in contact with the 4th, turiya); This is the foundation, the starting point to groom this silence, this calmness Kesava suggests. We experience it or may know it as samadhi.
    - Cosmic consciousness - this is transcendental consciousness established and one lives the SELF 7x24x365 - all the time, it does not come and go. That is SELF awareness co-exists with activity.
    Some call this turiyatit chetana. One experiences the distinction of activity ( on the outside) and the silence of the SELF as the subjective experience on the inside.
    - God Consciousness or bhagavat chetana. One experiences the world as His/Her creation on the level of the senses, but within freedom. No attachments, binding influence, no karma that binds, as we are outside the 3 gunas.

    Some Concluding remarks
    My dear friends, these levels of ones development is not only for the muni residing in a cave, it is not just for the sanyasi. His grace shines on everyone the same, Brahman is not pigeon-holed in India. It is there, behind, through and permeating every level of creation - within us and without us. It is our choice to begin to unfold this. This is why we speak of this on HDF, what one puts their attention on grows stronger in their life, yes? The saints say, what one adores, one becomes. I cannot adore Brahman/Fullness of Being, until I understand it more, personally experience it... so Knowledge ( the Upanishads) + Experience (meditation, sadhana, etc) is the formula that is practical. One can be a householder and do this, or one can choose to be the sanyas. Both can achieve this , albeit different routines apply to both.

    Om Hareer vida-dhyaan mama sarva rakshaam
    May the Lord Sri Hari protect you on all sides - Narayana Kavacham, Srimad Bhagavatam Mahapurna
    Last edited by yajvan; 19 June 2007 at 11:11 AM. Reason: corrections to me addressing mirabai, sm78, satay
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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