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Thread: Ignorance - an example

  1. #21
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam yajman

    Can there ever be a final analysis I wonder. I do not know how it was, if there was no distinction, why and how it came about.

    If I were to read your post correctly, what you are saying is we are to strive to become Brahman.

    Question is can we ever become some thing that we are not.
    If we were always Brahman but at present we are in ignorance then the question arises, how can sarvajyna the all knowing Brahman be deluded?
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Namaste Ganeshprasad,
    yes a reasonable observation... as with words, they seem to get in the way, yes? The 'strive' I wish to acknowledge is that of our intent, our will. This Brahman is svatasiddha, self proved. It is the SELF revealing itself to itSELF. So what of this word strive then? It is to make the resolve.

    Sa kratum kurvita, or one should make the resolve. What is this resolve for us to consider? To realize Brahman, that 'that this is so, not otherwise' That Brahman is our core value and our true nature. I have no doubt of this what so ever, for this I am blessed.

    It is not turn an apple into horse. It is for me to realized all along that I am That. And somehow I have found a way to forget this vidya. To this I have the resolve, to remember who I am.
    LIke a scuptor that chizels out a statue. They carve away everything that is not the satute, as it lives inside the rock.
    LIke that, these kosha's that surround atman, are the parts that need to be transcended to reveal the core of our Being, Brahman.

    Yet once this is done, even the shells or kosha's (pieces of rock) that are chipped away are also Brahman. This is even-ness ( sama) of seeing the world with a balanced mind. That a gold coin is the same (essentially) as a stone. How so? Essentially they are expressions of the same Brahman, of pure consciousness , pure intelligence, so say the wise. I am blessed to finally comprehend this and see this possibilty.


    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #22

    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Kaos


    I quote two verses that stands out as regards to jivas and gods apparent separateness from us.

    mamaivamso jiva-loke
    jiva-bhutah sanatanah
    manah-sasthanindriyani
    prakrti-sthani karsati

    The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind. (15.7)bg.

    na ca mat-sthani bhutani
    pasya me yogam aisvaram
    bhuta-bhrn na ca bhuta-stho
    mamatma bhuta-bhavanah


    And yet beings, in reality, do not remain in Me. Look at the power of My divine mystery. Though the sustainer and creator of all beings, I do not remain in them. (9.05)

    Jai Shree Krishna


    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    The jiva is Siva.
    A simple analogy would be a drop of water and the source, the ocean.

    The drop of water has the same essence as that of the ocean, yet the drop of water is not the ocean.

    Some say (monists) that at mahapralaya, all creation is withdrawn into Siva. He alone exists. Others, the pluralistic theists, contend that the world and souls (jivas) persists in seed form to re-emerge later.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  3. #23
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Namaste Ganeshprasad,
    yes a reasonable observation... as with words, they seem to get in the way, yes? The 'strive' I wish to acknowledge is that of our intent, our will. This Brahman is svatasiddha, self proved. It is the SELF revealing itself to itSELF. So what of this word strive then? It is to make the resolve.

    Sa kratum kurvita, or one should make the resolve. What is this resolve for us to consider? To realize Brahman, that 'that this is so, not otherwise' That Brahman is our core value and our true nature. I have no doubt of this what so ever, for this I am blessed.

    It is not turn an apple into horse. It is for me to realized all along that I am That. And somehow I have found a way to forget this vidya. To this I have the resolve, to remember who I am.
    LIke a scuptor that chizels out a statue. They carve away everything that is not the satute, as it lives inside the rock.
    LIke that, these kosha's that surround atman, are the parts that need to be transcended to reveal the core of our Being, Brahman.

    Yet once this is done, even the shells or kosha's (pieces of rock) that are chipped away are also Brahman. This is even-ness ( sama) of seeing the world with a balanced mind. That a gold coin is the same (essentially) as a stone. How so? Essentially they are expressions of the same Brahman, of pure consciousness , pure intelligence, so say the wise. I am blessed to finally comprehend this and see this possibilty.


    pranams,

    Beautifully put, yajvan.

    You are indeed blessed!



    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

  4. #24
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Kaos

    ----I quote two verses that stands out as regards to jivas and gods apparent separateness from us.

    mamaivamso jiva-loke
    jiva-bhutah sanatanah
    manah-sasthanindriyani
    prakrti-sthani karsati

    The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind. (15.7)bg.
    Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

    Sorry to be butting in late. Just wanted to point out a few things.

    "mamaivamso jiva-loke". So, the so-called fragmentation is in Jiva loke. Does this mean something new? Of course the jiva lok bodies are parts of what is eternal. On the other hand, compare the above verse with the one below:

    Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
    Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

    13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

    So, division is apparent, since He is indivisible.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    And yet beings, in reality, do not remain in Me. Look at the power of My divine mystery. Though the sustainer and creator of all beings, I do not remain in them. (9.05)

    Jai Shree Krishna

    Now, I think this must be a bit clearer that the so called beings (fragmentation) is not in Lord, who is Turiya. Fragmentation appears in Jagrat and Svapna but not in Pragnya or Turiya. Thus it is also said "--yuktatma yogis see Me in everyone and everyone in me." I think, this does not leave scope for any other real entity besides Lord.

    Me in you and you in me --- and sarvatra.

    More. Lord says that the truth is known in Samadhi.

    Jnaana vijnaana triptaatmaa kootastho vijitendriyah;
    Yuktah ityuchyate yogee samaloshtaashmakaanchanah.

    The Yogi who is satisfied with the knowledge and the wisdom (of the Self), who has conquered the senses, and to whom a clod of earth, a piece of stone and gold are the same, is said to be harmonised

    Finally,

    Shrutivipratipannaa te yadaa sthaasyati nishchalaa;
    Samaadhaavachalaa buddhistadaa yogam avaapsyasi.

    When thy intellect, perplexed by what thou hast heard, shall stand immovable and steady in the Self, then thou shalt attain Self-realisation.

    So, let us strive for that at least, without bothering much before hand. How does it matter whether we are particles and thus fragments or we are waves and thus pervasive. We may check out our own awareness to find out.


    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 24 July 2007 at 10:04 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #25
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Pranam yajvan

    yes a reasonable observation... as with words, they seem to get in the way, yes? The 'strive' I wish to acknowledge is that of our intent, our will. This Brahman is svatasiddha, self proved. It is the SELF revealing itself to itSELF. So what of this word strive then? It is to make the resolve.

    Yes you are right the word will always fall short of actual realisation, as the saying goes the proof is in the pudding.
    I am not here to rock the boat and I realize, most on this forum follow advaita, please do let me know if I irritate any one, then I would stop.
    If I may continue with your permission and ask, what need is there for self to reveal to the self since the supreme self would always be aware of it self.

    Sa kratum kurvita, or one should make the resolve. What is this resolve for us to consider? To realize Brahman, that 'that this is so, not otherwise' That Brahman is our core value and our true nature. I have no doubt of this what so ever, for this I am blessed.
    I agree Atatho Brahm Jigyasa. of course our nature is of Brahman because we are part of it.
    And I like this bhajan as composed by one of the recent Sankrachrya I believe. one line goes like this Mujme tujme bas bhed yahi me nar hu tum Narayan ho.

    It is not turn an apple into horse. It is for me to realized all along that I am That. And somehow I have found a way to forget this vidya. To this I have the resolve, to remember who I am.
    LIke a scuptor that chizels out a statue. They carve away everything that is not the satute, as it lives inside the rock.
    LIke that, these kosha's that surround atman, are the parts that need to be transcended to reveal the core of our Being, Brahman.
    Again I agree that this covering of material body is to be transcended and thus our true nature will be revealed. As I stated before Brahman has no possibility to forget, it is always sat chit and ananda

    So I ask again who is forgotten how did I forgot this vidya who am I?

    Yet once this is done, even the shells or kosha's (pieces of rock) that are chipped away are also Brahman. This is even-ness ( sama) of seeing the world with a balanced mind. That a gold coin is the same (essentially) as a stone. How so? Essentially they are expressions of the same Brahman, of pure consciousness , pure intelligence, so say the wise. I am blessed to finally comprehend this and see this possibilty.
    Again, I can not but agree, as Lord Narsingh dev proved and makes his appearance from a pillar.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  6. #26
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaos View Post
    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    The jiva is Siva.
    A simple analogy would be a drop of water and the source, the ocean.

    The drop of water has the same essence as that of the ocean, yet the drop of water is not the ocean.

    Some say (monists) that at mahapralaya, all creation is withdrawn into Siva. He alone exists. Others, the pluralistic theists, contend that the world and souls (jivas) persists in seed form to re-emerge later.
    Pranam Kaos

    Yes I can relate to what you say. Sivo ahem sivo ahem, that is not to say I am shiva the great god.
    Manvantar after manvantar the jivas those who have not librated, keep coming back,
    Sarg and visarga goes on for eternity.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  7. #27

    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Kaos

    Yes I can relate to what you say. Sivo ahem sivo ahem, that is not to say I am shiva the great god.
    Manvantar after manvantar the jivas those who have not librated, keep coming back,
    Sarg and visarga goes on for eternity.

    Jai Shree Krishna

    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, in the introduction part of his translation of the Bhagavad Gita, explains it well, as thus:

    The position of God is supreme consciousness.
    The entities, (souls, jivas) being part and parcel are also consciousness.

    The entity is prakrti, or nature, and so also is material energy; but the living entities are conscious, and matter is not.

    Therefore, the living entity is called the higher energy. But the living being is never supremely conscious at any stage.

    The supreme consciousness, explained in Bhagavad-gita as the Lord, is conscious, and the living beings are conscious; the entity of his limited body, and the Lord infinitely.

    The Lord lives in the heart of every being.
    Therefore, He has consciousness of all living beings.


    Hare Krishna!
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  8. #28

    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    Pranam Kaos

    Yes I can relate to what you say. Sivo ahem sivo ahem, that is not to say I am shiva the great god.

    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    I am not sure if I am addressing your post properly, but in Saivite Hinduism, God is Siva, both Creator and creation. The world is a manifest expression of Siva Himself.

    That a direct and personal experience that God to be both immanent (within) and transcendent, on seeing God everywhere and in everyone, on knowing God within oneself, achieved through non-intellectual spiritual disciples - sadhana. This is the view of the Nandinatha Sampradaya tradition of Saivite Hinduism
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  9. #29
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Pranam Atanu ji

    You are always welcome to but in.

    Yes I have compared the two verses unfortunately I do not see it the way you do.
    Verse 15.7 takes about jivas and it condition while the verse you quote is about the Parmatma the super soul within each beings.

    Now, I think this must be a bit clearer that the so called beings (fragmentation) is not in Lord, who is Turiya. Fragmentation appears in Jagrat and Svapna but not in Pragnya or Turiya. Thus it is also said "--yuktatma yogis see Me in everyone and everyone in me." I think, this does not leave scope for any other real entity besides Lord.

    Me in you and you in me --- and sarvatra.
    As clear as one want its to be. I can accept the lord is indivisible but yet its his creation and therefore I am part of him, but because we can not exist apart from him therefore we are within him. Yogis see the parmatma in all and then in turn he sees all in that undividable parmatma, this does not negate other entity within this brahman.
    He clearly says that
    na tv evaham jatu nasam
    na tvam neme janadhipah
    na caiva na bhavisyamah
    sarve vayam atah param
    Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. 2.12.


    More. Lord says that the truth is known in Samadhi.

    Jnaana vijnaana triptaatmaa kootastho vijitendriyah;
    Yuktah ityuchyate yogee samaloshtaashmakaanchanah.

    The Yogi who is satisfied with the knowledge and the wisdom (of the Self), who has conquered the senses, and to whom a clod of earth, a piece of stone and gold are the same, is said to be harmonised

    Finally,

    Shrutivipratipannaa te yadaa sthaasyati nishchalaa;
    Samaadhaavachalaa buddhistadaa yogam avaapsyasi.

    When thy intellect, perplexed by what thou hast heard, shall stand immovable and steady in the Self, then thou shalt attain Self-realisation.
    I agree

    So, let us strive for that at least, without bothering much before hand. How does it matter whether we are particles and thus fragments or we are waves and thus pervasive. We may check out our own awareness to find out.

    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    My friend for the first time, I detect frustration in you, for that I am sorry.
    I absolutely agree it does not matter one iota, important thing is to strive for self realisation

    yat sankhyaih prapyate sthanam
    tad yogair api gamyate
    ekam sankhyam ca yogam ca
    yah pasyati sa pasyati

    Whatever goal a Samnyasi reaches, a Karma-yogi also reaches the same goal. One who sees the path of renunciation and the path of work as the same, really sees. (See also 6.01 and 6.02) (5.05)

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  10. #30
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    Re: Ignorance - an example

    Pranam Kaos

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaos View Post
    Namaste Ganeshprasad,

    I am not sure if I am addressing your post properly, but in Saivite Hinduism, God is Siva, both Creator and creation. The world is a manifest expression of Siva Himself.

    That a direct and personal experience that God to be both immanent (within) and transcendent, on seeing God everywhere and in everyone, on knowing God within oneself, achieved through non-intellectual spiritual disciples - sadhana. This is the view of the Nandinatha Sampradaya tradition of Saivite Hinduism
    even if you have not answered my query directly your contribution is welcome. i have not heard of Nandinatha Sampradaya tradition of Saivite Hinduism i will look in to this. i like to make clear here i do not belong to any sampradaya.

    Hare Krishna

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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