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Thread: Demigods and Krishna

  1. #1
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    Demigods and Krishna

    Hare Krishna,

    I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

    I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

    Comments and direction are appreciated.

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    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste c.smith.
    Nice to see you posting ... Everyone's path is different. What does the wise say???
    If a worshipper of Devi does not see her in the images of Vishnu and Shankar etc. this would imply that he is doubting the omnipresence of his Adored One. Such a devotee who sees his Adored One partially remains imperfect.

    Dear c.smith , if this is how you see Krsna, then you have found home...
    Others see Siva, or Ram, or Devi in this manner.

    Recall in the gita, Krsna is called out as Kesava... it means one with beautiful hair. Yet, with a closer inspection of the name it's composed of
    Ka = Brahma + a = Visnu + isa =Siva. So we see Krsna as all 3 three.

    If you choose to debate who is superior and inferior and all that, the march to Brahman is only academic. What does your heart say?

    There is saguna Brahman or the expression of Brahman in this Manifest world, this can be Mother Divine, Devi, Ram, Krsna , no doubt, and Siva, and Ganesha, Hari.

    Yet Niguna Brahman is homogeneous, the Fullness, Bhuma, aksara or a= not + ksi= to destroy or perish. The Immutable, the Absolute, the Imperishable.

    I think you may know the answer? What one adores one becomes.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    namaste,
    Yajvan has already answered the post fully.

    If I may add a comment about the word 'demi'. This word 'Demi' implies inferiority and is not suitable to be used in my opinion. The correct word is 'Deva' or 'Devta'.

    Chapter 7 Verse 20

    kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah
    prapadyante 'nya-devatah
    tam tam niyamam asthaya
    prakrtya niyatah svaya

    The word clearly is ''nya-devatah' the ' in front of n is for 'a' so the actual word is pronouned as 'anya devatah'.

    There is no mention of the word 'demi'. Anya devatah does not imply inferiority, demi does and thus is distorting the meaning in my opinion.

    Lord says, 'those who worship anaya devta' not 'those who worship demi gods' !! Also, remember that Lord says that He himself is Rudra (shiva)! so where is the question of 'demi'?

    With respect to Shiva, he is not just a devta, He is MahaDeva! He is another aspect of the divine lord krishna. Please read chapter 10, verse 23.
    Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (shiva) make the trimurti, the three aspects of the divine. There is no 'pecking order' so to speak. This is my personal opinion.

    But I think Yajvan asks the best question. What does your heart say?

    For example, to a person whose heart is seeing divine as 'jesus' nothing else matters and for a person whose heart is experiencing divine as 'krishna' nothing else matters, similarly, to a person whose heart is set on 'shiva'...
    Last edited by satay; 04 July 2007 at 11:17 AM.
    satay

  4. #4

    Smile Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Quote Originally Posted by c.smith View Post
    Hare Krishna,

    I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

    I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

    Comments and direction are appreciated.
    Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
    Namaste C.Smith.
    The essence of all scriptures is that one needs to be guided by a spiritually evolved soul.ie; a GURU (Preceptor or Teacher)who is a self realised soul.
    If you are thirsty , you may ask for water(English), you may ask for Paani(Water in Hindi),you may ask for Theertham(Water in Tamil).You may drink this water calling it by any name.It is going to quench your thirst.
    Similarly call GOD by any name, Sri Ram,Sri Krishna,Jesus,Allah HE is sure to rescue and guide you at the required time .
    Technically speaking you may be right, because the age old scriptures mention the DASA AVATHAR(TEN Incarnations) of LORD HARI.
    They are : 1)Matsya 2)Koorma 3)Varaha 4)Narasimha 5)Vaman 6)Parasurama 7)Sri Ram 8)Sri Krishna 9)Balarama 10)Kalki.
    All these Avathar's are an Amsam or Spark of Lord Hari.
    But in the spiritual path it is only DEVOTION AND IMPLICIT OBEDIENCE TO OUR GURU that matters. Rest all is secondary.

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    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Namaste C.Smith,

    My position is somewhat similar to Satay’s. In Vaishnava mythology, Siva and all others take a subordinate position, and become devotees of Vishnu. In Saivite mythology, Vishnu/Krishna and all others take on a subordinate position and become devotees of Siva. Personally, I don’t think it is about true God, false God, semigod or demigod, but about the form of God that is our focus. Whichever is the image of our focus (Ishta Devata) becomes the highest and only form to us. Smartaism goes one step further and stresses that you must be able to see the same God in all forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by c.smith View Post
    I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.
    Yes, you may think of it that way. There are thousands of denominations in Christianity. However, all of them come together to some degree with regards to God, Jesus and Bible. In Hinduism, there are also many denominations, but the form in which we see God is different. For some it is Vishnu or Krishna, others it is Siva, and for others it is Divine Mother. Where the Hindu denominations come together is not in the form of God that is their focus of worship, but on certain core beliefs and texts that they all believe in and hold sacred. Those who have had a Christian upbringing, many times may find Vaishnavism the easiest to follow because there is more similarity between Vaishnava and Christian teachings than with other schools IMHO.

    OM Shanti,
    A.
    Last edited by Agnideva; 05 July 2007 at 02:02 PM.



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    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Thank-you all for your responses.

    My heart says that there are several ways to whatever you call "God", and without getting into whom may be superior or not, they may all lead to the same place. That said, I'm being taught that Krishna is the original form and that Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna. Doesn't set well with the classical teachings of Hinduism that I first learned. Perhaps it all doesn't matter, again because there are several paths that lead to (generic) God.

    Forgive me for my misgivings. Though I have settled on ISKCON as my path to enlightenment, I know that I still have very much to learn. Thank-you for giving me that opportunity and for being constructive with your comments and teachings. I appreciate you all.

    Guru? Perhaps one day I will be fortunate enough to meet the one that Krishna has in mind for me.

    Again, thank-you for your continued patience as I continue to learn and grow through your posts.

    Most humbly,

    Clayton

  7. #7

    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Dear C. Smith,
    Here is an older post of mine (not from this forum though), where certain Iskcon devotees were putting down Lord Shiva as a mere "Demi-God". This is a false perspective. Although I agree with the perspective that to each his favorite form of God. This was in reply to a ritvik devotee who projected Lord Shiva as an "associate" of "external energy" of God and "remaining absorbed in material quality of darkness" and in maya, but Vishnu above maya. This was the bhava projected by the devotee. Sadly a lot of these people try to get away with this sort of pseudo explanation of Lord Shiva's position and glory. If you want to know the real position, then go to the highest authority. One who has direct perception of Mahadeva. I post this post for your benefit. Regards and love.

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guruvani
    TRANSLATION
    "Lord Śiva is an associate of the external energy; therefore he is absorbed in the material quality of darkness. Lord Viṣṇu is transcendental to māyā and the qualities of māyā. Therefore He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

    - This is totally opposite to Shiv Purana and any other great Vedic literature. Even if you fail to recognize the importance of Shiva Purana through various cunning demarcations of vedanta jugglery, Cc is still no match for Shiva Mahapurana, cuz its a Purana. Cc is no purana, no Veda. Besides, nowhere do the Vedas represent Lord Shiva to be representing darkness and so called some kinda "external energy". This is HK folklore period.

    Now listen how Lord Krsna - the top most authority of HK philosophy speaks on seeing Lord Shiva to Yudhishthira. This is what Krsna himself says of Shiva and Shiva confirms that Krsna worshipped him in many lives. All this is told by Krsna to Yudhishthira. So before putting a false and laughable mistranslation like a "Demi-God" to Lord Shiva Maheswara, think about what Lord Krsna himself says about Shiva. He does not address him as a demiGod. If Prabhupada does, then its his prerogative, that we are not in any compulsion to agree with. You maybe! Cuz u feel bounded by his diksha.

    "The blessed Vishnu continued thus speaking to Yudhishthira, 'I then said unto him, O regenerate one, through thy grace, O great ascetic. I shall behold the lord of the deities, that grinder of multitudes of Diti's sons. Eight days, O Bharata, passed there like an hour, all of us being thus occupied with talk on Mahadeva. On the eighth day, I (Krishna) underwent the Diksha (initiation) according to due rites, at the hands of that Brahmana and received the staff from his hands. I underwent the prescribed shave. I took up a quantity of Kusa blades in my hand. I wore rags for my vestments. I rubbed my person with ghee. I encircled a cord of Munja grass round my loins. For one month I lived on fruits. The second month I subsisted upon water. The third, the fourth and the fifth months I passed, living upon air alone. I stood all the while, supporting myself upon one foot and with my arms also raised upwards, and foregoing sleep all the while.

    I then beheld, O Bharata, in the firmament an effulgence that seemed to be as dazzling as that of a thousand Suns combined together. Towards the centre of that effulgence, O son of Pandu, I saw a cloud looking like a mass of blue hills, adorned with rows of cranes, embellished with many a grand rainbow, with flashes of lightning and the thunder-fire looking like eyes set on it. 1 Within that cloud was the puissant Mahadeva. himself of dazzling splendour, accompanied by his spouse Uma.
    Verily, the great Deity seemed to shine with his penances, energy, beauty, effulgence, and his dear spouse by his side. The puissant Maheswara, with his spouse by his side, shone in the midst of that cloud.
    The appearance seemed to be like that of the Sun in the midst of racking clouds with the Moon by his side.
    The hair on my body, O son of Kunti, stood on its end, and my eyes expanded with wonder upon beholding Hara, the refuge of all the deities and the dispeller of all their griefs.
    Mahadeva was adorned with a diadem on his head. He was armed with his Sula. He was clad in a tiger-skin, had matted locks on his head, and bore the staff (of the Sanyasin) in one of his hands. He was armed, besides with his Pinaka and the thunderbolt. His teeth was sharp-pointed. He was decked with an excellent bracelet for the upper arm. His sacred thread was constituted by a snake. He wore an excellent garland of diversified colours on his bosom, that hung down to his toes. Verily, I beheld him like the exceedingly bright moon of an autumnal evening.

    Surrounded by diverse clans of spirits and ghosts, he looked like the autumnal Sun difficult of being gazed at for its dazzling brightness.

    Eleven hundred Rudras stood around that Deity of restrained soul and white deeds, then seated upon his bull. All of them were employed in hymning his praises. The Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Viswedevas, and the twin Aswins praised that Lord of the universe by uttering the hymns occurring in the scriptures.
    The puissant Indra and his brother Upendra, the two sons of Aditi, and the Grandsire Brahma, all uttered, in the presence of Bhava, the Rathantara Saman.
    Innumerable masters of Yoga, all the regenerate Rishis with their children, all the celestial Rishis, the goddess Earth, the Sky (between Earth and Heaven), the Constellations, the Planets, the Months, the Fortnights, the Seasons, Night, the Years, the Kshanas, the Muhurtas, the Nimeshas, the Yugas one after another, all the celestial Sciences and branches of knowledge, and all beings conversant with Truth, were seen bowing down unto that Supreme Preceptor, that great Father, that giver (or origin) of Yoga.
    Sanatkumara, the Vedas, the Histories, Marichi, Angiras, Atri, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, the seven Manus, Soma, the Atharvans, and Vrihaspati, Bhrigu, Daksha, Kasyapa, Vasishtha, Kasya, the Schandas, Diksha, the Sacrifices, Dakshina, the Sacrificial Fires, the Havis (clarified butter) poured in sacrifices, and all the requisites of the sacrifices, were beheld by me, O Yudhishthira, standing there in their embodied forms.
    All the guardians of the worlds, all the Rivers, all the snakes, the mountains, the celestial Mothers, all the spouses and daughters of the celestials, thousands upon thousands and millions of ascetics, were seen to bow down to that puissant Lord who is the soul of tranquillity. The Mountains, the Oceans, and the Points of the compass also did the same, the Gandharvas and the Apsaras highly skilled in music, in celestial strains, sang and hymned the praises of Bhava who is full of wonder. The Vidyadharas, the Danavas, the Guhyakas, the Rakshasas, and all created beings, mobile and immobile, adorned, in thought, word and deed, that puissant Lord. Before me, that Lord of all the gods viz., Sarva (Shiva), appeared seated in all his glory. Seeing that Isana had showed himself to me by being seated in glory before my eyes, the whole universe, with the Grandsire and Sakra, looked at me.
    I, however, had not the power to look at Mahadeva.

    The great Deity then addressed me saying, 'Behold, O Krishna, and speak to me.
    Thou hast adorned me hundreds and thousands of times.
    There is no one in the three worlds that is dearer to me than thou.' After I had bowed unto him, his spouse, viz., the goddess Uma, became gratified with me. I (Krsna) then addressed in these words the great God whose praises are hymned by all the deities with the Grandsire Brahma at their head.'

    "The blessed Vishnu said, 'I saluted Mahadeva, saying,--Salutations to thee, O thou that art the eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that thou art Penance, thou art Sattwa, thou art Rajas, thou art Tamas, and thou art Truth. Thou art Brahman, thou art Rudra, thou art Varuna, thou art Agni, thou art Manu, thou art Bhava, thou art Dhatri, thou art Tashtri, thou art Vidhatri, thou art the puissant Master of all things, and thou art everywhere. All beings, mobile and immobile, have sprung from thee. This triple world with all its mobile and immobile entities, has been created by thee. The Rishis say that thou art superior to the senses, the mind, the vital breaths, the seven sacrificial fires, all others that have their refuge in the all-pervading Soul, and all the deities that are adored and worthy of adoration. Thou, O illustrious one, art the Vedas, the Sacrifices, Soma, Dakshina, Pavaka, Havi, and all other requisites of sacrifice. The merit obtained by sacrifices, gifts made to others, the study of the Vedas, vows, regulations in respect of restraint, Modesty, Fame, Prosperity, Splendour, Contentment, and Success, all exist for leading to thee. 1 Desire, Wrath, Fear, Cupidity, Pride, Stupefaction, and Malice, Pains and Diseases, are, O illustrious one, thy children. Thou art all acts that creatures do, thou art the joy and sorrow that flow from those acts, thou art the absence of joy and sorrow, thou art that Ignorance which is the indestructible seed of Desire, thou art the high origin of Mind, thou art Puissance, and thou art Eternity. 2 Thou art the Unmanifest, thou art Pavana, thou art inconceivable, thou art the thousand-rayed Sun, thou art the effulgent Chit, thou art the first of all the topics, and thou art the refuge of life. 3 The use of words like Mahat, Soul, Understanding, Brahman, Universe, Sambhu, and Self-born and other words occurring in succession (in the Vedas), show that thy nature has been judged (by persons conversant with the Vedas) as identical with Mahat and Soul. Verily, regarding thee as all this, the learned Brahmanas win over that ignorance which lies at the root of the world. Thou residest in the heart of all creatures, and thou art adored by the Rishis as Kshetrajna. Thy arms and feet extend to every place, and thy eyes, head, and face are everywhere. Thou hearest everywhere in the universe, and thou stayest, pervading all things. Of all acts that are performed in the Nimeshas and other divisions of time that spring in consequence of the puissance of the Sun, thou art the fruit. 1 Thou art the original effulgence (of the supreme Chit). Thou art Purusha, and thou residest in the hearts of all things. Thou art the various Yogic attributes of success, viz., Subtility and Grossness and Fruition and Supremacy and Effulgence and Immutability. 2 Understanding and intelligence and all the worlds rest upon thee. They that are devoted to meditation, that are always engaged in Yoga, that are devoted to or firm in Truth and that have subjugated their passions, seek thee and rest on thee. 3 They that know thee for one that is Immutable, or one that resides in all hearts, or one that is endued with supreme puissance, or one that is the ancient Purusha, or one that is pure Knowledge, or one that is the effulgent Chit, or one that is the highest refuge of all persons endued with intelligence, are certainly persons of great intelligence. Verily, such persons stay, transcending intelligence. 4 By understanding the seven subtile entities (viz., Mahat, Ego, and five subtile primal elements called Tanmatras), by comprehending thy six attributes (of Omniscience, Contentment of Fullness, Knowledge without beginning, Independence, Puissance that is not at fault at any time and that is infinite), and being conversant with Yoga that is freed from every false notion, the man of knowledge succeeds in entering into thy great self.--After I had said these words, O Partha, unto Bhava, that dispeller of grief and pain, the universe, both mobile and immobile, sent up a leonine shout (expressive of their approval of the correctness of my words). The innumerable Brahmanas there present, the deities and the Asuras, the Nagas, the Pisachas, the Pitris, the birds, diverse Rakshasas, diverse classes of ghosts and spirits, and all the great Rishis, then bowed down unto that great Deity. There then fell upon my head showers of celestial flowers possessed of great fragrance, and delicious winds blew on the spot. The puissant Sankara then, devoted to the good of the universe, looked at the goddess Uma and the lord of the celestials and myself also, and thus spoke unto me,--We know, O Krishna, that thou, O slayer of foes, art filled with the greatest devotion towards us. Do what is for thy good. My love and affection for thee is very great. Do thou ask for eight boons. I shall verily give them unto thee, O Krishna, O best of all persons, tell me what they are, O chief of the Yadavas. Name what thou wishest. However difficult of attainment they be, thou shalt have them still.'"



    - THIS WAS DESCRIBED BY LORD SHRI KRISHNA HIMSELF TO YUDHISHTHIRA OF HIS MEETING WITH SHRI SHIVA SHANKARA MAHADEVA. NOW ALL THE SHIVA BASHERS PROPAGATING SHIVA TO BE A MERE "DEMI-GOD" SEEK THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION. THEY CAN'T PLEASE NOR SHIVA, NEITHER KRSNA, BUT INVITE ONLY THEIR OWN DOOM BY THIS MAHA APARADHA!
    NAMA SHIVAYA!! NAMAH VASUDEVAYA!!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    One may worship Shiva or Vishnu (Krsna, Rama) as God or Supreme God and attain the highest aim of spiritual life. There should be no doubt about it. Namah Shivaya!

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    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Quote Originally Posted by c.smith View Post
    Thank-you all for your responses.

    My heart says that there are several ways to whatever you call "God", and without getting into whom may be superior or not, they may all lead to the same place. That said, I'm being taught that Krishna is the original form and that Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna. Doesn't set well with the classical teachings of Hinduism that I first learned. Perhaps it all doesn't matter, again because there are several paths that lead to (generic) God.

    Forgive me for my misgivings. Though I have settled on ISKCON as my path to enlightenment, I know that I still have very much to learn. Thank-you for giving me that opportunity and for being constructive with your comments and teachings. I appreciate you all.

    Guru? Perhaps one day I will be fortunate enough to meet the one that Krishna has in mind for me.

    Again, thank-you for your continued patience as I continue to learn and grow through your posts.

    Most humbly,

    Clayton
    Dear Clayton,

    You must be on a correct path, since even God is defined by His humbleness.

    Lord Krishna says in Gita: Those know who know me as unborn Mahesvara.


    Now I ask, those who equate Shri Krishna's form with another, do they know the unborn Krishna who is Mahesvara? Probably not as they know only the born (form) and they swear by the form alone?

    If you contemplate on the above, you will realise that Mahesvara and Krishna are not different. And once you realise that you will do good service to ISKCONites.

    Regards

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    For information of Clayon

    Yajur Veda i. 8. 6. d Rudra alone yieldeth to no second.



    The above Vaidic statement proves false all hoarse claims that Rudra-Shiva is a demi God.

    Shiva represents the Self that everyone aspires to unite with and also Sarvesvara Lord whom all worship for fulfillment of the aspiration.




    What is not Vedic is not true.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #10

    Re: Demigods and Krishna

    Quote Originally Posted by c.smith View Post
    Hare Krishna,

    I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

    I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

    Comments and direction are appreciated.

    I agree vaishnavas is the path I am walking on however I do not associate with ISKCON. I have a few issues with them as a group and im not really into those kind of groups.

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