Demigods and Krishna

[c.smith]

Hare Krishna,

I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Comments and direction are appreciated.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste c.smith.
Nice to see you posting ... Everyone's path is different. What does the wise say???
If a worshipper of Devi does not see her in the images of Vishnu and Shankar etc. this would imply that he is doubting the omnipresence of his Adored One. Such a devotee who sees his Adored One partially remains imperfect.

Dear c.smith , if this is how you see Krsna, then you have found home...
Others see Siva, or Ram, or Devi in this manner.

Recall in the gita, Krsna is called out as Kesava... it means one with beautiful hair. Yet, with a closer inspection of the name it's composed of
Ka = Brahma + a = Visnu + isa =Siva. So we see Krsna as all 3 three.

If you choose to debate who is superior and inferior and all that, the march to Brahman is only academic. What does your heart say?

There is saguna Brahman or the expression of Brahman in this Manifest world, this can be Mother Divine, Devi, Ram, Krsna , no doubt, and Siva, and Ganesha, Hari.

Yet Niguna Brahman is homogeneous, the Fullness, Bhuma, aksara or a= not + ksi= to destroy or perish. The Immutable, the Absolute, the Imperishable.

I think you may know the answer? What one adores one becomes.

[satay]

namaste,
Yajvan has already answered the post fully.

If I may add a comment about the word 'demi'. This word 'Demi' implies inferiority and is not suitable to be used in my opinion. The correct word is 'Deva' or 'Devta'.

Chapter 7 Verse 20

kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah
prapadyante 'nya-devatah
tam tam niyamam asthaya
prakrtya niyatah svaya

The word clearly is ''nya-devatah' the ' in front of n is for 'a' so the actual word is pronouned as 'anya devatah'.

There is no mention of the word 'demi'. Anya devatah does not imply inferiority, demi does and thus is distorting the meaning in my opinion.

Lord says, 'those who worship anaya devta' not 'those who worship demi gods' !! Also, remember that Lord says that He himself is Rudra (shiva)! so where is the question of 'demi'?

With respect to Shiva, he is not just a devta, He is MahaDeva! He is another aspect of the divine lord krishna. Please read chapter 10, verse 23.
Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (shiva) make the trimurti, the three aspects of the divine. There is no 'pecking order' so to speak. This is my personal opinion.

But I think Yajvan asks the best question. What does your heart say?

For example, to a person whose heart is seeing divine as 'jesus' nothing else matters and for a person whose heart is experiencing divine as 'krishna' nothing else matters, similarly, to a person whose heart is set on 'shiva'...

[Atman]

namaste,
Yajvan has already answered the post fully.


With respect to Shiva, he is not just a devta, He is MahaDeva! He is another aspect of the divine lord krishna. Please read chapter 10, verse 23.
Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh (shiva) make the trimurti, the three aspects of the divine. There is no 'pecking order' so to speak. This is my personal opinion.

I must disagree here. Shiva is seen as a Mahayogi and other such titles like Mahadeva- those who live in the highest Casual world, beings composed of quantum light particles.
However- Krsna states in the Bhagavad Gita that those who worship the demigods go to the region of the demigods- but those who worship me- come to me. It is therefore clear that Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead- therefore is called 'supreme ishwara.' There is no reason therefore to take offense to the fact that Shiva and Brahma are also demigods in comparison.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I respect your views on this matter , yet my orientation is shaped differently.

If a worshipper of Devi does not see her in the images of Vishnu and Shankar etc. this would imply that he is doubting the omnipresence of his Adored One. Such a devotee who sees his Adored One partially remains imperfect. - Swami Brahmananda, Shankaracharaya of Jyotir Matt,

I mention this quote because it comes from one fully realized in Being, an exponent of Reality, totally conversant in the Veda. He is jnana cahsusah - one who has the eyes of knowledge. Why does he say this about the omnipresence of ones Adored One? Because he knows Brahman's Fullness of Being. When that Fullness (Bhuma) is found in Siva, Visnu, Devi, it is still fullness.
We cannot take Infinity (Krsna) and cut it into lesser parts... each one is full in itself. Each one offers the sadhu an orientation to know the Divine. This is His (Krsna's) Grace.

What is key is that one adores their view of the Lord as the All, Tad Ekam and that Bhuma is there. This is called out in Chapt 10 of the Gita as I see it. This is also called out in the Madhu vidya of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.


pranams,

[satay]

namast Atman,

I must disagree here. Shiva is seen as a Mahayogi and other such titles like Mahadeva- those who live in the highest Casual world, beings composed of quantum light particles.
However- Krsna states in the Bhagavad Gita that those who worship the demigods go to the region of the demigods- but those who worship me- come to me. It is therefore clear that Krsna is the supreme personality of Godhead- therefore is called 'supreme ishwara.' There is no reason therefore to take offense to the fact that Shiva and Brahma are also demigods in comparison.

yes, this is the ISKCON view, however, it doesn't apply to me since I am not an ISKCONite though I am a vaishnava.

You are in the correct forum though on HDF to say this.

[Atman]

Well as a Vaishnava- I'd have thought you'd put Krsna/Narayana as on a different plane from other devas/mahadevas.
From what I've read on Creation- Lord Brahma himself underwent a penance lasting 1000 divine years- to understand Krsna and his spiritual world. If the creator himself was confused- yet his comprehension is much greater than humans/celestials, this shows these great souls cannot be on the same plane of Krsna/Narayana- in fact, even Mahavisnu himself cannot describe Krsna or his supra glorious realm of Navidapa fully.

[Arvind Sivaraman]

Hare Krishna,

I've been reading lately that Siva and all other Gods are only Demigods - that Krishna is the original God. It once again changes my perspective and is leading me to the Vaishnavas, especially back to the Hare Krishna movement. For those of you who know me by my posts, I've been all over the board when it comes to chosing an Ishta Devata, but it seems that Krishna is the true God, far superior to the others.

I still have some issues with ISKCON, but as I'm "maturing" spiritually, I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Comments and direction are appreciated.

Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
Namaste C.Smith.
The essence of all scriptures is that one needs to be guided by a spiritually evolved soul.ie; a GURU (Preceptor or Teacher)who is a self realised soul.
If you are thirsty , you may ask for water(English), you may ask for Paani(Water in Hindi),you may ask for Theertham(Water in Tamil).You may drink this water calling it by any name.It is going to quench your thirst.
Similarly call GOD by any name, Sri Ram,Sri Krishna,Jesus,Allah HE is sure to rescue and guide you at the required time .
Technically speaking you may be right, because the age old scriptures mention the DASA AVATHAR(TEN Incarnations) of LORD HARI.
They are : 1)Matsya 2)Koorma 3)Varaha 4)Narasimha 5)Vaman 6)Parasurama 7)Sri Ram 8)Sri Krishna 9)Balarama 10)Kalki.
All these Avathar's are an Amsam or Spark of Lord Hari.
But in the spiritual path it is only DEVOTION AND IMPLICIT OBEDIENCE TO OUR GURU that matters. Rest all is secondary.

[Agnideva]

Namaste C.Smith,

My position is somewhat similar to Satay’s. In Vaishnava mythology, Siva and all others take a subordinate position, and become devotees of Vishnu. In Saivite mythology, Vishnu/Krishna and all others take on a subordinate position and become devotees of Siva. Personally, I don’t think it is about true God, false God, semigod or demigod, but about the form of God that is our focus. Whichever is the image of our focus (Ishta Devata) becomes the highest and only form to us. Smartaism goes one step further and stresses that you must be able to see the same God in all forms.

I'm finding more and more of their practices and thinking acceptable. I liken it to my upbringing in a Christian church. Many denominations but only one true God. The same can be said for all religion in my opinion.

Yes, you may think of it that way. There are thousands of denominations in Christianity. However, all of them come together to some degree with regards to God, Jesus and Bible. In Hinduism, there are also many denominations, but the form in which we see God is different. For some it is Vishnu or Krishna, others it is Siva, and for others it is Divine Mother. Where the Hindu denominations come together is not in the form of God that is their focus of worship, but on certain core beliefs and texts that they all believe in and hold sacred. Those who have had a Christian upbringing, many times may find Vaishnavism the easiest to follow because there is more similarity between Vaishnava and Christian teachings than with other schools IMHO.

OM Shanti,
A.

[c.smith]

Thank-you all for your responses.

My heart says that there are several ways to whatever you call "God", and without getting into whom may be superior or not, they may all lead to the same place. That said, I'm being taught that Krishna is the original form and that Vishnu is an incarnation of Krishna. Doesn't set well with the classical teachings of Hinduism that I first learned. Perhaps it all doesn't matter, again because there are several paths that lead to (generic) God.

Forgive me for my misgivings. Though I have settled on ISKCON as my path to enlightenment, I know that I still have very much to learn. Thank-you for giving me that opportunity and for being constructive with your comments and teachings. I appreciate you all.

Guru? Perhaps one day I will be fortunate enough to meet the one that Krishna has in mind for me.

Again, thank-you for your continued patience as I continue to learn and grow through your posts.

Most humbly,

Clayton