Who Can Learn the Veda's

[Pretnath]

Namaste All

Thanks Atanu G for your post. I too think proper Guru is important.

I don't think without proper social strengeth, any mental strengeth can be gained or may be a proper Guru would able to do that.

But in this time when Govt. is supporting casteness vote-bank policy, there is hardly anything left for the disableds. And now Handicaps too wants Action and not words

[atanu]

Namaste All
I don't think without proper social strengeth, any mental strengeth can be gained or may be a proper Guru would able to do that.

But in this time when Govt. is supporting casteness vote-bank policy, there is hardly anything left for the disableds. And now Handicaps too wants Action and not words

Namaste Pretnath,

I understand otherwise. I understand that the greatest handicap is our leaving the full and perfect Existence-Knowledge-Bliss that is the Self and going to dig for troubles around --- and we find what we dig for.



Om

[Hiwaunis]

"Most individuals in the United States" are untouchables as well. Did you know that? What is your ancestry? Trace it far back and you will see that most of these people in the US have descended from the dregs of Europe; barbarians and murderers.

Secondly, you have no clue about the 'caste system' or Varnashrama Dharma. It is ONLY because of Varnashrama Dharma, which Gandhi (IMO) supported, that Hinduism still exists whereas ALL other ancient civilizations have vanished! It will NEVER be destroyed and it is the backbone of India.

Furthermore, to compare Varnashrama Dharma to the movement of the blacks in the US is blasphemous. VD is NOT based on skin color! If it was, Michael Jackson would be the greatest Aryan (noble person) on the planet! He is certainly not and neither is any westerner! I have mentioned several times that an Aryan is one of NOBLE qualities and background! 100% of westerners are untouchables! Did you know that? Too bad eurocentric idiots, I mean 'scholars' thought that the caste system arose through a fantasy they made up called Aryan Invasion Theory where fair-skinned people (hahah) subjugated dark-skinned people!

VD has been beaten to death at HDF so do some research before blabbering something!

And to the respected members of HDF (Yajvan, Atanu, Satay, Saidevo et al.) I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ).

Pranam,
This post started out being very pleasant and informative. Somewhere down the line it became a bit cruel and somewhat vulgar. Reading some of the post I begin to question myself. What am I? Untouchable, Asura, Brahmin? Do I fit into any caste?

My background: Grandparents both on Mother's side half breeds, African and Native American. On father's side Grandmother Native American, father Black. Myself: practice meditation, chant mantras, vegatarian and celibacy. About 21 years ago I was handed a book titled " The Nectar of Instruction" in an airport (I still have it), I read it and from that day on Christianity was out. Other than books about a certain profession I only read books on Hinduism; Rig Veda, The Upanishads, The Bhagavad Gita, Yoga Suturas just to name a few. I watch a little Tv maybe 1 hour every 3 or 4 months. No radio or funky music. I have invested in the Indian TV series CD sets, Om Namah Shivay (I have watched this every night for the last 2 years), Brahma Vishnu Mahesh, The MahaBharat, Vishnu Puran and the Life of the Buddha. I have bought so many CD's, sacred chants, beautiful Hindi songs (prayers and chalisa's). I live in a 1bdrm apartment which is dedicated to TriDev's and TriDevi's. I say all of this to make a point I am definately not your average Black, female, American. As a matter of fact the only people that I talk to is at work. I donot socialize at all. I consider the world outside of my apartment as hell.

I just wanted to let you know I am SICK & TIRED of these silly westerners coming on here and just slandering India and her civilization; past & present. It is time WE HINDUS unite and fight back (through education and dialogue ).

It is not wrong to oppose evil and correct ignorance, Namaste. I was in India is the 1993. A lot of the people I saw were poor. But I don't think that was something that they carry in there minds because they were always smiling. I'm not sure what they were saying to me but I think it was hello.

So anyway what is someone like me considered to be? A bigger question is why am I sooooo different from others?
Om Shanti

[MahaHrada]

So anyway what is someone like me considered to be? A bigger question is why am I sooooo different from others?
Om Shanti

Westerners are avarNa or chandala, that means without an association with any of the 4 varnas.

[saidevo]

Namaste Hawaunis.

The kind of spiritual life you lead is impressive. Please rest assured that most of us born Hindus are much more worldly, though Hiduism courses our blood. Perhaps familiarity breeds indifference. All the 'satsang' you have in solitude with your books and CD sets and TV series amounts to a large bank balance of meritorious karma and on top of that you practice meditation. With such personal glory, why should you worry about how you are classified in the rungs of varNa and caste? You have all the qualities of a 'laukIka brahmin' (brahmin who chooses worldly life, as distinguished from 'vaidIka brahmins') and may consider yourself as one in mind and action and this is what matters, IMO.

All the talk we have in HDF about caste and varNa which--more often than not gets emotional because of its sensitive nature--is certainly not meant to hurt the feelings of individual Western Hindus like you. It is more of a reaction to the inhuman, exclusive and adharmic practices of a large number of Western religious people of the Christian and Islamic religions who seek to destroy India and her civilization by slander and conversion.

Hindu Dharma Shastras have the provision of a caste called 'sAmAnya' for other religious people who come into the fold of Hinduism. If you want to be formal about being fitted into a caste and varNa, you might as well approach a respect Hindu Institution in your area and have your name changed into a Hindu name as well. But then as everyone knows, even among the born Hindus in today's circumstances, the caste and varNa are highly mixed up and the sacred provisions of varNa dharma are getting diluted because of such factors as inter-caste, inter-religious marriages and brahmins neglecting their dharma.

Your Hindu spiritual life certainly sets you apart from many Hindu commons and notables and in this sense you are 'sooooo different' from them. You need not worry about external identifications such as caste and varNa, IMHO.

[MahaHrada]

If you want to be formal about being fitted into a caste and varNa, you might as well approach a respect Hindu Institution in your area and have your name changed into a Hindu name as well.

I have some experience both with Indian and with western society and i think it is not possible and also not advisable for a westerner to try to fit into the Hindu social system of varnas. Besides the practical impossibility of such an assimilation, what should be the reason for such a wish? I do not understand the advantage of pretending to belong to a varna, why one should not simply try to be accepted and respected for being that, what one actually is, a westerner without a Varna?

[reflections]

Namaste All,

This is excerpt from an article by Swami Sivananda:

In a broad sense, a Sattvic man, who is pious and virtuous and leads the divine life, is a Brahmana, a Rajasic man with heroic quality is a Kshatriya, a Rajasic man with business tendencies is a Vaisya and a Tamasic man is a Sudra. Hitler and Mussolini were Kshatriyas. Ford was a Vaisya.

The full article can be read at following link.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/...duism/id/23077


From this, article I do not think that all the Westeners are avarna. Westerners can not fit in 'Jati' system of India certainly. Like, in case of Hiwaunis, his Jati will depend on his roots from Africa and Native America. But, I guess, depending upon guna (attitude/characteristics) and karma (action), it might be possible to find Varna for any new comers to Hindu dharma.

[MahaHrada]

From this, article I do not think that all the Westeners are avarna. Westerners can not fit in 'Jati' system of India certainly. Like, in case of Hiwaunis, his Jati will depend on his roots from Africa and Native America. But, I guess, depending upon guna (attitude/characteristics) and karma (action), it might be possible to find Varna for any new comers to Hindu dharma.

Yes maybe, i know that some Gurus , especially neo-hindu, argue that Varna is independt of jati, i doubt this, but even if it is, for what purpose needs a westerner to belong to any Varna? Especially one who is not even living in India?
A westerner has not received any of the samskaras, he does have no idea about the svadharma of the respective varna, in short he will shurely fail to fulfill the required duties, of any of the varnas, this will only be the cause of accumulation of negative karma.
When a westerner attracted to bharata dharma remains what he is, without any offical varna this will be an advantage for him, while pretending to belong to a varna will only be causing obstacles, both when interacting with western culture and when interacting with Indian society and culture, that is what i am firmly convinced off.
I am a westerner and i have started practicing yoga already when i was six years old and was in india and nepal and the hindu island bali for several times and i never encountered any disrespect or had any disadvantage because of my birth or being an avarna. Even while i have been practicing Yoga for all my life and feeling closer to hindu culture than western, i never felt the need to care about association of my self with any Varna. I never felt there is any disadvantage in being avarna, and never was i mistreated because of my birth,on the contrary i always was respected and treated kindly by Hindus from all social backgrounds and walks of life and that even beyond my expectations.
Isn´t spiritual attainment exactly about being what one is, not of attachment to any outward appearance? Why then the desire of some westerners to enter into a varna? When i think that some westerners belive that they can become Hindus by owning a piece of paper signed by some Arya samaj or other offical, what a joke. A Hindu License Something like a driver license haha. And what Varna do you think the average egotistical new age western convert to Hinduism would like to see printed in his "Hindu License" ? Of course he wants nothing less than the best, this is the typical mentality of such people, and now all off a suden we have some "licensed and certified western brahmins"..... really all this "westerners have a varna" is make belive and in real life practically impossible and will cause only obstacles.

[satay]

Namaskar,

I also don't see a need for westerners to belong to a varna and/or jati except in the case where the western hindu might want to perform any sort of yagna or hindu marriage or any other ritual.

My experience is that the if you are performing these rituals or activities then the presiding pundit will ask you your 'Gotra' (which is some how part of jati or varna?).

What would/should the western hindu answer in these cases?

Just a thought.

[MahaHrada]

Namaskar,

I also don't see a need for westerners to belong to a varna and/or jati except in the case where the western hindu might want to perform any sort of yagna or hindu marriage or any other ritual.

My experience is that the if you are performing these rituals or activities then the presiding pundit will ask you your 'Gotra' (which is some how part of jati or varna?).

What would/should the western hindu answer in these cases?

Just a thought.

A western hindu could use the gotra of his Guru, since a Guru is ones´s spiritual father and one therefore belongs to his spiritual family.
For me this is not a problem because all nath yogis are descendants from shiva and it is said we belong to shiva gotra.
Now if a westerner has no guru he obviously is asking for trouble he has no gotra and must find someone willing to risk to be inventive and modify the samkalpa excluding the gotra or maybe exchanging it with the name of the backward tribal area where the westerners family came from, something like Michiganian gotra or Newyorkian, Londinian ?