Parrots and Monkeys

[willie]

So this traditions has a way to test these, so called holymen, well it the instructions are written down or passed along you can rest assured that those of evil intent have found ways around the tests. Is essence you have given your position away.

The one big problem with all the people you mentioned is that they are all human and therefore the will, some day, die. And someone else will take over and no matter how close this person followes those who proceeded him there will be changes.

I never thought much of this whole monestary , monk and nun thing in the first place. I think that a person has to live on the real world and face everyday problems not run off to some secluded spot and have holy thoughts. If and individual cannot have those holy thoughts in a city or town while dealing with a normal life then the person is not much of a spiritaul person to begin with.

[Vajradhara]

Namate willie,

thank you for the post.

So this traditions has a way to test these, so called holymen,

yes, though we don't call them holy men or women.

well it the instructions are written down or passed along you can rest assured that those of evil intent have found ways around the tests.

there is no "way" around the test since the tests are ones of Dharma.

Is essence you have given your position away.

The one big problem with all the people you mentioned is that they are all human and therefore the will, some day, die.

which beings have i mentioned? i cannot seem to find mention of any particular beings in this thread.

of course, all compounded things decay, this is the dharma of it.

And someone else will take over and no matter how close this person followes those who proceeded him there will be changes.

ah, you misunderstand.

beings are not our teachers, the Dharma is. for many beings just getting started, their only method to learn of the Dharma is from a teacher.

but, like all expedient means, once no longer required, they are put aside.

I never thought much of this whole monestary , monk and nun thing in the first place.

then i would heartily suggest you not join one!

I think that a person has to live on the real world and face everyday problems not run off to some secluded spot and have holy thoughts. If and individual cannot have those holy thoughts in a city or town while dealing with a normal life then the person is not much of a spiritaul person to begin with.

you are free to think whatever it is that you'd like to think.

metta,

~v

[willie]

The more I look at this dharma thing the more it looks like humans don't get an even break. Sort of like playing roulette, the wheel has all the places where the ball can land but the odds are always in the house's favor.

This dharma is lile the roulette wheel, no matter what the bet you don't get an even shot at the prize, you are always just a little at the disadvantage.

Then there is the main problem with dharma and the buddhist take on it. If the whole process is to work then something has to be making a decision. Something has to make the call that the person has advanced enough to get ba better reincarnation, and since there is no spiritual power in the decision making spot, that leaves the whole philosophy a bit lacking.

Then there is the whole problem of the why bother argruement. If there is nothing at the point of reincarnation not being required anymore, then why bother with the whole thing? It is not like you progress to a pure spiritual being, just the end of the line, so to speak. Well in that case it is not wonder that there are so many problems in the world as by comming back and causing problems the piece of spirit keeps its existence going, and the keeps others existences going also. Sort of a perpetual motin machine. Maybe the trouble makers and those who cause us to suffer are in actuality keep the rest of us in existence?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Willie,

thank you for the post.

let me say, up front, that this post, though in the Buddha Dharma forum, is actually a Tao teaching. however, this forum has nothing for Taoist teachings, and, since there is some commonality, it wound up here

The more I look at this dharma thing the more it looks like humans don't get an even break.

Dharma is concerned with more than humans, it is human hubris which makes humans feel as if the universe revolves around them. this sort of thing is oft found in the Abrahamic traditions, in my experience.

more to the point, perhaps, is that humans get the karma that they sow. just like the farmer reaps the fruits of his crops, so too the human reaps the fruit of their karma. should you not like the fruit, plant different seeds.

Sort of like playing roulette, the wheel has all the places where the ball can land but the odds are always in the house's favor.

gambling analogies are not very appropos here, as this is not a "gamble" nor chance. in the final analysis, however, every sentient being will be a "winner" in your analogy. though it may take more than one arising.

Then there is the main problem with dharma and the buddhist take on it.

are you a Dharma adherent at all?

If the whole process is to work then something has to be making a decision.

what makes the decision for an apple to fall from a tree?

Something has to make the call that the person has advanced enough to get ba better reincarnation, and since there is no spiritual power in the decision making spot, that leaves the whole philosophy a bit lacking.

you realize that there are 4 distinct and seperate schools of Buddhist philosophy, yes?

moreover, karma is a natural law and, as such, requires no lawgiver.

given your phrasing above, it would appear that you are not aware that Buddha Dharma does not teach reincarnation. we teach rebirth, and whilst they may seem the same, they actually are not.

karma follows a sentient being as ones shadow follows the physical form. nothing makes the shadow do this, it is its dharma.

Then there is the whole problem of the why bother argruement. If there is nothing at the point of reincarnation not being required anymore, then why bother with the whole thing?

since reincarnation is not a teaching of ours, there isn't much for me to say here.

however, i shall address the query as much as possible.

why is spiritual practice only valuable after the physical form ceases? why does it have no value in ones current arising? by engaging in the practice of compassion and equanimity, beings can live peaceful and happy lives. that, in and of itself, seems worthwhile.

every moment of arising consciousness is a rebirth of consciousness, conditioned by the preceeding moment and karma. so, if you are not able to accept the rebirth of consciousness after the ceasing of the physical form, there is no worry.

It is not like you progress to a pure spiritual being, just the end of the line, so to speak.

especially since there is no "you" that does any progressing

Well in that case it is not wonder that there are so many problems in the world as by comming back and causing problems the piece of spirit keeps its existence going, and the keeps others existences going also.

of course, we don't teach that, either

the Sanskrit term you are looking for is "tanha", that is what drives this cycle. though, in truth, we can cut the 12 Linked Chain at any of the links.

metta,

~v

[willie]

So it is the old song and dance as more philosophys put out.

Well in the world we live in there is some law enforcement and generally that law enforcment is divided into 2 sections. The police , who enforce the law and the court system that does the judgement and hand out the punishment or a not guilty verdict.

Buddhism seem the come up with a police force and expects it to enforce this dharma, but I have yet to see any central figure acting as a judge or a jury. In this case the whole of enforcment is not of much value. The police of dharma can go around enforcing these laws but with out some entity of hand out a verdict there is little use in the enforcememt end.

Human laws have been hammered out over years and are teh force that keeps most inline, because they don't want to suffer the punishment of breaking the laws.


But with this dharma there seems to be no one there to hand out the judgement. So it leaves one wondering how the laws came into existance in the first place?

Apples usually fall off the tree when the sugar content is high and the fruit is ripe. So that hopefully some animal will eat the fruit and transport the seed to another location.

Other wise the apple fall from the tree is there is a problem and the seed is not developing correctly. This interupts the development and the fruits sugar supply is cut off. There is not use wasting resources on some seeds that are not going to mature.

Buddhism seems to be like the unmature seeds , it wants to have a system but with no one to judge who get in and who stays out. In christanity they say , they want the kingdom but without god in it . Well who would want a judge judging them but getting around that is going to be a problem. As it is hard to have a system of rules when no one is in charge of making the rules so in essence you really have no rules.

I say bring back the parrots and monkeys, the parrots can be trained to do tricks that people might pay to see and there by support their care givers. And the monkeys can be trained to work with organ grinders and support themselves and a person to care for them.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste willie,

thank you for the post and the condsention.

So it is the old song and dance as more philosophys put out.

you are aware that there are many, many different philosophical views to be found in the world, yes?

Well in the world we live in there is some law enforcement and generally that law enforcment is divided into 2 sections. The police , who enforce the law and the court system that does the judgement and hand out the punishment or a not guilty verdict.

i've seen Law and Order as well.

Buddhism seem the come up with a police force and expects it to enforce this dharma, but I have yet to see any central figure acting as a judge or a jury.

wow. you really have no idea what we are on about here.

there is no "police" and no "judge" and no "jury". this analogy is inaccurate and thus, invalid.

we don't have a "central authority figure who determines the correctness or falsness of our practice" that is something for the adharmic traditions to wrangle about.

the individual schools of Buddhism, however, do have their respective authority figures, to wit: His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.

In this case the whole of enforcment is not of much value. The police of dharma can go around enforcing these laws but with out some entity of hand out a verdict there is little use in the enforcememt end.

do you know what karma is? given the nature of your posts, i would presume that you do not.

Human laws have been hammered out over years and are teh force that keeps most inline, because they don't want to suffer the punishment of breaking the laws.

read my signature quote. eh, i'll post it here:

I have gained this from philosophy:
That i do, without being commanded, what others do only through fear of Law.

~ Aristotle

But with this dharma there seems to be no one there to hand out the judgement.

that is correct. no being that sits in judgement is to be found in either the Buddha Dharma or Tao.

So it leaves one wondering how the laws came into existance in the first place?

do you often wonder how gravity came into existence?

karma is a natural law, like gravity and thus, requires no law giver to be operative. it is, essentially, the moral equilivent to natural law of cause and effect.

Buddhism seems to be like the unmature seeds , it wants to have a system but with no one to judge who get in and who stays out.

then i would heartily suggest that you not adopt the Buddhist paradigm, especially if you require a being to judge you you will be very disappointed with the lack of judgement in Buddha Dharma.

In christanity they say , they want the kingdom but without god in it .

what are you talking about?

Well who would want a judge judging them but getting around that is going to be a problem.

based on your comments, it seems like it is you that wants a judge to judge them.

As it is hard to have a system of rules when no one is in charge of making the rules so in essence you really have no rules.

since, gravity is a natural law, it really doesn't operate within a known guidelines.

honestly, if this is your argumentation, you would be well served to become more cognizant of the Buddha Dharma and the methods in which we use to teach it.

I say bring back the parrots and monkeys, the parrots can be trained to do tricks that people might pay to see and there by support their care givers. And the monkeys can be trained to work with organ grinders and support themselves and a person to care for them.

you have really misunderstood the intent of this post.

however, your misunderstanding points out *precisely* the point of the OP in point of fact, i could not have demonstrated the premis of the OP in as successful a manner as you have done on this thread. for that, i do offer you my thanks.

metta,

~v

[satay]

world traditions.

Parrots and Monkeys:

Liu-I Ming (1737 C.E. - ? )

metta,

meant to ask you about the book. How is 'Awakening of the Tao'? I have read OSHO's discourses on Tao and Tao is something that is very intriguing to me to say the least...difficulty of course...teacher can not be found easily (according to osho)...

[willie]

The natural law of gravity has to do with physical mass. And in the case of people the larger and heavier a perons is the more gravity they have. The earth has a lot of gravity according to its mass and so attracts people to its surface and the persons gravity attracts the earth to them.

But in spiritual area where there is no mass. this will not work and so something has to cause the person spiritual essence take on another body. However, is this did work then the person's spiritual essence would fall into the first receptacle body that was resent, assuming all were of equal value. Like a ball on a roulette wheel, it has as equal chance of falling into any of the slots. all slots being equal. But if a person actions on earth change its size then it would only fit into certain bodies. Due to a size or shape change. Now being in a nonphysical world this size of shape change would be interesting to observe.

So if in a nonphysical area the size of shape of the object could be modified by actions in the physical area then that is very interesting. If the size of shape of the object, in the nonphysical world, cannot be changed by the physical world then all bodies have an equal chance of recieving the object.


Now I thing is the time to get into how actions in the physical world modify the nonphysical object. Otherwise the nonphysical object will fall into the first physical body, no matter what the previous body's actions were . Unless some other force is responsible for determining where each of the nonphysical go, based on the previous bodies actions.

[Vajradhara]

meant to ask you about the book. How is 'Awakening of the Tao'? I have read OSHO's discourses on Tao and Tao is something that is very intriguing to me to say the least...difficulty of course...teacher can not be found easily (according to osho)...

Namaste Satay,

thank you for the post.

it is a fantastic book, very concise and too the point. it does, naturally, require a being to have some understanding of Taoist praxis, especially in the Northern or Southern Complete Reality traditions.

however, if there were one book on Tao to read other than the Tao Te Ching, i would have to say that it is the Secret of the Golden Flower.

it is difficult to find Taoist teachers especially if one lives someplace other than China! of course, that doesn't mean that they don't exist other places, but you see my meaning.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Namaste willie,

thank you for the post.

The natural law of gravity has to do with physical mass.

if this is so, then you should have no problem explaning how gravity works on the Quantum scale.

and if you can do that, you will be awared the Noble Prize in physics, since noboby has yet figured out how this works.

And in the case of people the larger and heavier a perons is the more gravity they have. The earth has a lot of gravity according to its mass and so attracts people to its surface and the persons gravity attracts the earth to them.

so you are saying that Marlon Brando, for instance, has a greater gravitational pull than Charlie Sheen?

why is gravity the weakest of the four fundamental forces yet applies to much greater distances?

something has to cause the person spiritual essence take on another body.

tanha is the cause. however, it is not related to spiritual essence since my tradition holds no such view.

metta,

~v