Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 97

Thread: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

  1. #1
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,


    Does any one wish to discuss the fabric of consciousness? As I read many posts we at HDF have a great desire to know the Divine, to know our Ishtadevata. We all have great respect for Isvara as far as I can see.

    So what does this have to do with this post? The Divine, in it final form is consiousness, awareness, pure awareness. We possess this and use it everyday, that is why we can experience the Divine, because we are mode of this.

    This is a very delicate state of awareness, very subtle. So if one wishes to know more about the Divine ( to the best of our human capacity) it mades sense to discuss this in an open forum.

    Now who says the Divine [Brahman] is consciousness? The Upanishads. Others? Vishisita. Is the Divine more then consciousness? Absolutey. Yet this is the fundamental, least common denominator of all that is, Consciousness.

    So I did not want to start the conversation unless others would find it of value.

    Let me know if this is worth the pursuit.


    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaskara Yajvan,

    Thanks for starting a good topic.

    Is there a thing called consciousness at all, or is there only a conscious entity? When we say consciousness, can we ever separate it from the entity which is conscious? If so, why do we always, without any exception, relate every feeling, every emotion, every thought (and whatever else there is within the field of consciousness) with a person?

    For instance, is there a thing called anger existing in isolation? No, that anger is always related to a person (who's angry). The same goes for everything else within consciousness. It doesn't exist in isolation, it's always centered on a person.

    Can we then conclude that whenever we speak of consciousness, whether it's ours or some higher levels including the highest which we call Brahman, there must be a person corresponding to it?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaskara Yajvan,

    Thanks for starting a good topic.

    Is there a thing called consciousness at all, or is there only a conscious entity? When we say consciousness, can we ever separate it from the entity which is conscious? If so, why do we always, without any exception, relate every feeling, every emotion, every thought (and whatever else there is within the field of consciousness) with a person?

    For instance, is there a thing called anger existing in isolation? No, that anger is always related to a person (who's angry). The same goes for everything else within consciousness. It doesn't exist in isolation, it's always centered on a person.

    Can we then conclude that whenever we speak of consciousness, whether it's ours or some higher levels including the highest which we call Brahman, there must be a person corresponding to it?
    Namaste Suresh,
    Your questions are reasonable and contributes to this idea. There is a notion you bring that is 'conscious of' something. I am conscious of typing this post, as you were, and of people reading this sentence.
    So we can apply consciousness to an act..in this case a stream of ideas put to typing and then reading... simple enough.

    Yet lets take a look at it another way, not different but another viewpoint. Consciousness is awareness. Being aware, or awake. Let me ask you and the reader to isolate this awareness just so we can all have the same experience...ok?

    If you can now take your awareness and bring it to your foot. Take your time... Bring your awareness down to your foot, the right one. Feel your total foot, ok? Now take that awareness and bring it to your left foot, now up to your knee.
    Last, take the awareness and bring it to the tip of your nose. Hold it there for a few seconds without any thoughts, just a few seconds. I will wait while you do this - - - - - - ( that was me waiting).

    Do you notice you can direct your attention to different parts of your body? There is an outward flow. Now , while you were doing this, if cookies were being baked in the kitchen and you had a sniff of this, the awareness would go to the cookie smell. Or if the phone rang, you would have been distracted ( not really, as the mind seeks out more pleasurable circumstances, happier things, more enjoyment), your mind, applying consciousness goes there.

    The point is , consciousness is applied. It is applied to the senses, to touch, feel, smell, taste as you mention. It could even be applied to anger as you mentioned. Yet, the bottom line, consciousness is ubiquitous, it is everywhere. And in the examples above they where applied in the outward direction.

    When we think, and experience, it is only with us, that is the ignorance we are experiencing. that consciousness is divided up into segments, and it is distributed to people ( and animals, they too are aware, yes? this is consciousness), parsed out, consciousness applied.

    This above is key point ... because the next part suggests that there is a vast reservoir consciousness, unending, without bounds, infinite, ananta.

    This is what the rishi's, swami's, muni's bath in, hail about, and ask us to experience. Before we can go to this level of the conversation, we need to get comfortable with the ideas above, ok? And for others, if they wish to participate.

    So lets ask those (and you) this wish to participate on this post to kick around, and poke around these ideas above. Consciousness applied / Awareness in use. We then can go a little further and offer up some more concepts and ideas.


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 July 2007 at 05:40 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    365

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Namaste Suresh,
    Your questions are reasonable and contributes to this idea. There is a notion you bring that is 'conscious of' something. I am conscious of typing this post, as you were, and of people reading this sentence.
    -----
    pranams,
    Excellently explained. Let 's see how it goes.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #5

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste yajvan, and all,

    A very interesting thread indeed, and good questions from Suresh.
    I hope others can participate and contribute as well.

    Yes, you mentioned that consciousness is applied. I most certainly agree with that.

    But the question is: who is it that applies this consciousness?

    Does this "who" refer to the "i"?

    If we looked and searched deeply, we cannot find an independent, permanent "i". We are not merely this collection of physical aggregates called the body.

    In the Bhagavad Gita and other scriptures, they speak of "the Self within the self", that "the Lord dwells in our hearts" etc.


    Therefore, if one cannot find the "i", and the Self is within the self, if one drops the self, then all that remains is Self.

    Another way of looking at it is:

    If I am not self, which "self" has consciousness, this very subtle consciousness...

    This is addressed to in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:


    IV-iv-5: That self is indeed Brahman, as also identified with the intellect, the Manas and the vital force, with the eyes and ears, with earth, water, air and the ether, with fire, and what is other than fire, with desire and the absence of desire, with anger and the absence of anger, with righteousness and unrighteousness, with everything -–identified, in fact, with this (what is perceived) and with that (what is inferred). As it does and acts, so it becomes; by doing good it becomes good, and by doing evil it becomes evil – it becomes virtuous through good acts and vicious through evil acts. Others, however, say, ‘The self is identified with desire alone. What it desires, it resolves; what it resolves, it works out; and what it works out, it attains.’


    As to the questions, what is "self", what is "consciousness", and most importantly, "who is it that applies this conciousness", "what is it that pervades this entire universe", the Upanishads again address these questions:

    "Brahman alone, the Greatest, is this whole universe." - Mundaka Upanishad II. 2. 11.
    Last edited by Kaos; 29 July 2007 at 04:15 PM.
    Om purnam adah, purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate; purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate.
    Om Santih! Santih! Santih!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    365

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Namaskara Yajvan,
    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    ------
    Can we then conclude that whenever we speak of consciousness, whether it's ours or some higher levels including the highest which we call Brahman, there must be a person corresponding to it?

    Namaskar Suresh

    I add my bit so that the matter may proceed with more questions.

    Suresh, leave alone Brahman, examine yourself.

    If you cared to investigate, you would find that ‘the person that you are’, is the consciousness having a notion that I am Suresh, born on that date. That perception has changed very frequently. "I am a school student", "I am an Engineer", "I am -----" etc. etc.

    Go ahead further and query this awareness of yours which makes you feel that you are Suresh. Why in that awareness you have solid bodies in the waking time, subtle bodies (sometimes elephants or full cities) during dream time, and nothing during deep sleep time?

    Where is that person, you are talking about, through these three states? You may (or may not easily) find that 'person you think you are' is a wave of concsiousness itself.

    Beneath that modified consciousness (wave) exists the real one.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    70
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1912

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste everyone.

    Annie Besant has written a book titled A Study in Consciousness that elaborately traces the nature and evolution of Consciousness in all its manifestations. Though I've had the printed book for over four years with me, I got around to look it up only now when this subject came up for discussion in these boards. Written in the light of Theosophy, the book presents the concepts from Hinduism as well as other religions. I plan to read the book in full shortly; here is a gist of what I looked up regarding the nature of Consciousness.

    Consciousness in Creation

    1. Consciousness, in its most abstract, unmanifested form is Brahman, the One God, the Absolute Consciousness. Once it manifests, it becomes inseparable with matter.

    2. Brahman manifests his Absolute Consciousness in the form of a Trinity, via his attributed counterpart, the Saguna Brahman, the Universal Consciousness. The Trinity represent the three aspects of the Universal Consciousness: Activity-Wisdom-Will: Sat-Chit-Ananda: Kriya-Jnana-Ichcha: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva.

    The Saguna Brahman, the Pratyag Atma (Inner Self) of the Hindus is the One (Personal) God of the Christians; Hormuzd of the Parsis; and the Allah of the Muslims.

    The Trinity Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, in that order, is represented in other religions as Holy Spirit-Son-Father in Christianity; and Chochmah-Binah-Kepher in Kabala/Cabala; the Third-Second-First Logos in Theosophy.

    Sat lent to the matter becomes the Universal Mind, represented by Brahma, who starts the process of creation of forms with his Rajo Guna, using his Kriya Shakti. Vishnu pervades the forms, maintains and harmonizes them with his Satva Guna and remains as the Jnana Shakti in them. Shiva as the Ichcha Shakti dissolves the forms when their time is up and restores them to the state associated with the Tamo Guna, the Eternal Bliss or Ananda, until the next creation starts.

    Nature of Consciousness

    Since I can't summarize it without losing the key ideas, let me quote Annie Besant from now on:

    "To begin with a definition of terms consciousness and life are identical, two names for one thing as regarded from within and from without. There is no life without consciousness; there is no consciousness without life. When we vaguely separate them in thought and analyse what we have done, we find that we have called consciousness turned inward by the name of life, and life turned outwards by the name of consciousness. When our attention is fixed on unity we say life; when it is fixed upon multiplicity we say consciousness; and we forget that the multiplicity is due to, is the essence of, matter, the reflecting surface in which the One becomes the Many. When it is said that life is "more or less conscious", it is not the abstraction life that is thought of, but "a living thing" more or less aware of its surroundings. The more or less awareness depends on the thickness, the density, of the enwrapping veil which makes it a living thing, separate from its fellows. Annihilate in thought that veil and you annihilate in thought also life, and are in THAT into which all opposites are resolved, the ALL."

    "This leads us to our next point: the existence of consciousness implies a separation into two aspects of the fundamental all-underlying UNITY. The modern name of consciousness, "awareness", equally implies this. For you cannot hang up awareness in the void; awareness implies something of which it is aware, a duality at the least. Otherwise it exists not. In the highest abstraction of consciousness, of awareness, this duality is implied; consciousness ceases if the sense of limitation be withdrawn, is dependent on limitation for existence. Awareness is essentially awareness of limitation, and only secondarily awareness of others. Awareness of others comes into being with what we call Self-consciousness, Self-awareness. This abstract Twain-in-One, consciousness - limitation, spirit - matter, life - form, are ever inseparable, they appear and disappear together; they exist only in relation to each other; they resolve into a necessarily unmanifest Unity, the supreme synthesis."

    Consciousness as it Appears from the Forms Side

    "Consciousness and matter affect each other because they are the two constituents of one whole, both appearing as they draw apart, both disappearing as they unite, and as they draw apart a relation exists ever between them. (That relation is magnetic, but of magnetism of the subtlest kind, called Fohat, or Daiviprakriti, "The Light of the Logos". It is of Substance, and in it the essence of consciousness and essence of matter exist, polarised but not drawn apart.)"

    "There is no such thing as a conscious unit which does not consist of this inseparate duality, a magnet with two poles ever in relation to each other. We think of a separate something we call consciousness, and ask how it works on another separate something we call matter. There are no such two separate somethings, but only two drawn-apart but inseparate aspects of THAT which, without both, is unmanifest, which cannot manifest in the one or the other alone, and is equally in both."

    "They affect each other because inseparable parts of a unity, manifesting as a duality in space and time. The "gulf" appears when we think of a "spirit" wholly immaterial, and a "body" wholly material - i.e., of two things neither of which exists. There is no spirit which is not matter-enveloped: there is no matter which is not spirit-ensouled. The highest separated Self has its film of matter, and though such a Self is called "a spirit" because the consciousness aspect is so predominant, none the less is it true that it has its vibrating sheath of matter, and that from this sheath all impulses come forth, which affect all other denser material sheaths in succession. To say this is not to materialise consciousness, but only to recognise the fact that the two primary opposites, consciousness and matter, are straitly bound together, are never apart, not even in the highest Being. Matter is limitation, and without limitation consciousness is not. So far from materialising consciousness, it puts it as a concept in sharp antithesis to matter, but it recognises the fact that in an entity the one is not found without the other. The densest matter, the physical, has its core of consciousness; the gas, the stone, the metal, is living, conscious, aware. Thus oxygen becomes aware of hydrogen at a certain temperature, and rushes into combination with it."

    Consciousness as it Appears from Within

    "Consciousness is the one Reality, in the fullest sense of that much-used phrase; it follows from this that any reality found anywhere is drawn from consciousness. Hence, everything which is thought, is. That consciousness in which everything is, everything literally, "possible" as well as "actual" - actual being that which is thought of as existent by a separated consciousness in time and space, and possible all that which is not so being thought of at any period in time and any point in space - we call Absolute Consciousness."

    (As Absolute Consciousness) "It is the ALL, the ETERNAL, the INFINITE, the CHANGELESS. Consciousness, thinking time and space, and of all forms as existing in them in succession and in places, is the Universal Consciousness, the ONE, called by the Hindu the Saguna BRAHMAN - the ETERNAL with attributes - the PRATYAG-ATMA - the INNER SELF;"

    Annie Besant goes on to say that the manifestations are nothing more than thought forms of the associated deities. They exist so long as he maintains them and they have no Reality other than that given by the deity's thought.

    "Thus, as Spirits, we are inherently, indefensibly divine, with all the splendour and freedom implied in that word. But we are clothed in matter which is not ours, which is the thought-forms of the RULER of our system - controlled again by the RULERS of vaster systems in which ours is included - and we are only slowly learning to master and use it. When we realise our oneness with our RULER, then the matter shall have no longer power over us, and we shall see it as the unreality it is, dependent on His will, which then we shall know as also ours. Then we can “play” with it, as we cannot while it blinds us with its borrowed Reality."

    "A careful dwelling in mind on the distinctions above traced between Absolute Consciousness, Universal Consciousness, and Individual Consciousness, will prevent the student from asking the question so often heard: Why is there any universe? Why does All-Consciousness limit itself? Why should the Perfect become the imperfect, All-Power become the powerless, God become the mineral, the brute, the man? In this form the question is unanswerable, for it is founded on false premises."

    As further topics the book discusses: ch.6. Unity of Consciousness, ch.7. The Mechanism of Consciousness, ch.9. Consciousness and Self-Consciousness, ch.10. Human States of Consciousness, ch.12. The Nature of Memory. This is followed by a desire on Will, Desire and Emotion in Part 2 of the book, which can be read/downloaded at http://www.anandgholap.net/Study_In_...ousness-AB.htm

    A further reference on the subject could be the Pranava-Vada of Gargyayana, an ancient Sanskrit Text, translated in summary by the great Indian scholar (who was awarded Bharat Ratna) Bhagavan Das. This book could be read/download in pdf format at: http://www.makara.us/05ref/01books/p...ada/pv_toc.htm

  8. #8
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~~


    Namaste,

    I think these posts are great. I also think ( IMHO) that we went from 0 to 100 MPH in concepts and knowledge. All good , yet for some, our velocity may curtail the initial understanding of this simple and delicate fabric of consciousness. Again that is my assessment, no fault finding.

    We have many knowledgable people on this post, and I would perhaps suggest approaches to make it a bit simpler [initially] to comprehend and appreciate? What are my thoughts on this? Let me share with you... If I am off base let me know.

    We know consciousness precedes thought. It is so intimate and immediate, so close to us, that it does not become an object to inspect, to appreciate. So when talks of this most delicate quality people find it difficult at times to grasp it. It is not an apple we can hold to our face and look at its size , shape, but without this consciousness, this awareness, the apple can not be understood.

    So, if its okay, let me ( and anyone that wishes to help) try and form some concepts on clarifying the experience of this awareness. It will help us then with all the excellent posts of saidevo, Kaos, Atanu wish to bring.
    We then can look at this from these view points ( which are great), yet be grounded in some of the fundamentals.

    Examples are always good for a starting point, so perhaps here we can kick around a few notions. The one that seems to make sense to me is that of going to the movies. There are two examples.

    One goes to the movies and sits and watches the show. The light from the projector is clear and bright, it shines through the 35mm film a frame at a time. It does not care what is on the film, as it projects the image onto the screen and from their we pick up these images in our eyes, mind, emotions, feelings.
    How many movies has one gone to that an emotion was stirred-up? happy, sad, anger, etc. Yet when the movie is done we find that we were caught up in the moment. And what made that possible? That white pure light that projected the story through the plastic film. Like that in this simple analogy, that pure light is consciousness... It is applied to the movie/film [ our life, actions, karma, vasanas] and projects a 'reality' for that 2 hour movie [ or our life span] . It is consciousness, that light that allows this life to happen, to play out.

    Some like to use the white movie screen with the same idea. The white movie screen is consciousness, that is, reflecting the movie sequence [life] that is happening. Take away the movie and what do we have? a white clear screen. Now just extend that screen in every dimension and you have an example of consciousness, where all of the universe plays out.

    With this example, for us, for us humans, we never turn the movie off. It is episode after episode we watch day-in-and-day-out. What makes all the episodes available to us, that change all day and night, is the simple backdrop of the screen. The screen by itself is pure consciousness, pure awareness. This is the fabric of the SELF, this delicate, simple level of awareness that permeates this creation.

    This screen or projecting light can be experienced, and it is of the greatest mental health one can bring to ones self, that of the 'reality' of life; to experience just the screen, just the brilliant projecting light.

    Let me stop there, as we can add to this... that is, if we get comfortable with this, we can take it further. How to better understand this pure awareness, this consciousness that we use...applied consciousness that is being conscious and aware of life; using the 'raw material' of consciousness. Now how to experience just the raw materials once we have a better appreciation of what this can be in a future post, but lets poke around with this first, if that's ok.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 29 July 2007 at 06:34 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #9
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    70
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1912

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste.

    In the analogy of the movie, there are four elements: the projector with its source of light, the film with its dormant impressions, the white movie screen onto which the impressions are projected, and the audience who watch the movie.

    It might be helpful to consider these elements as follows:

    The projector is the Atman, the human soul, who is a spark from Brahman. The film and its dormant impressions are the seeds of Karma that fructify on the screen. The white screen is the Akasha or space in which the Life and World manifest in time. The audience are the Jivas, who not only watch but partake the action of the movie. And the light that issues out of the projector through the film onto the screen is Consciousness.

    This analogy cannot be stretched too far, because in reality the projector, the film and the light are all within the Jivas, whereas the white screen or the Life and World seem to be outside them. In the normal waking state, Jivas focus the light of Consciousness on the Canvas of Life and World and see the lives of their own and others are played out in action.

    The awareness created by Consciousness is largely external for most of us. We are aware of our physical selves and of the external world we live in. We are predominantly aware of our own actions and thoughts and also of the actions of other Jivas around us when they affect us. We are also aware of the resources and comforts of the world and seek them mostly for personal benefits.

    Thus we use our Individual Consciousness largely to focus on our external selves and circumstances. Once we start to focus it within, we will find that it makes a large difference.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste.

    In the analogy of the movie, there are four elements: the projector with its source of light, the film with its dormant impressions, the white movie screen onto which the impressions are projected, and the audience who watch the movie.

    It might be helpful to consider these elements as follows:

    The projector is the Atman, the human soul, who is a spark from Brahman. The film and its dormant impressions are the seeds of Karma that fructify on the screen. The white screen is the Akasha or space in which the Life and World manifest in time. The audience are the Jivas, who not only watch but partake the action of the movie. And the light that issues out of the projector through the film onto the screen is Consciousness.

    This analogy cannot be stretched too far, because in reality the projector, the film and the light are all within the Jivas, whereas the white screen or the Life and World seem to be outside them. In the normal waking state, Jivas focus the light of Consciousness on the Canvas of Life and World and see the lives of their own and others are played out in action.

    The awareness created by Consciousness is largely external for most of us. We are aware of our physical selves and of the external world we live in. We are predominantly aware of our own actions and thoughts and also of the actions of other Jivas around us when they affect us. We are also aware of the resources and comforts of the world and seek them mostly for personal benefits.

    Thus we use our Individual Consciousness largely to focus on our external selves and circumstances. Once we start to focus it within, we will find that it makes a large difference.
    Namaste Saidevo,
    A most excellent post for one to grasp this concept. Most of us have the 'flood' of consciousness pour out of our eyes, ears, mouth, etc. an outward movement of this Consciousness/awareness.

    My one friend said it reminded him of a pumpkin. In the USA there is a holiday , Halloween, in which pumpkins are used. The insides of the punpkin is removed and made hollow. Then eyes, ears, mouth, etc are cut out. Inside the pumpkin is placed a candle. The candle's light shines out all of the holes, a flood of light.

    Like that, this consciousness comes out of us. The candle, in this example, is the 'flame in a still place, unflickering' as the Upanishads say. It is that consciousness/awareness that allows the eyes to see, the ears, to hear, etc. in our body (purusha) a city, puri, of 9 gates [ 2 eyes + 2 ears + 2 nostril openings +1 mouth + 2 openings for excretion = 9 gates]

    What is interesting, as we will get here latter in the conversation, as we wish to go slowly in the beginning, is this consciousness 'fuels' the 3 states of awareness we all share: Waking, Dreaming and Sleep. Just like the candle, supports these 3 levels as the come and go, wax and wane for an entire life.

    The opportunity to be able to look behind these 3 states some call prajna, taijasa and visva [wake, dream and sleep] and be aware of the candle. This is the cornerstone of higher states of consciousness is all about, about regaining this 'candle consciousness'...

    We will talk more of this - I am in hopes people can poke around your most excellent analogy so there can be more discussion here then we can move forward and extend the discussion.

    pranams
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •