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Thread: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

  1. #21
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    The seer (me, and you) the organs of perception (our eyes, our senses, etc) and the object that is seen or experienced are all one thing.
    This famous assertion of Advaitic Unity of life and consciousness behind all manifestations is known to us only metaphysically and experienced mystically. Now that we are discussing the physical expression of Consciousness, can we check the validity of this truth?

    Here, I look at the golden bangle and know that whether form or substance, it is a metal. I look at a plant, at my puppy and then at myself or at a friend sitting opposite me. I wonder: how can they all be the same? Surely there is something nutty with metaphysics that asserts there is the same identical life force and consciousness present in all these--okay, manifestations.

    If you want me to carefully look at a golden bangle and ask me what exactly do I see, my obvious answer would be that it is a bangle first and then only gold. My physical sense of vision, my eyes do see the bangle and the gold in it, sure, but the form overwhelmingly hides the content. If you want me to perceive it as gold, I would need to have it flattened into no shape or form. All the while, though, I know that it is just gold, that the form is only superficial, but I don't realize the truth with conviction. I don't think I shall ever have such realization, unless I do something special (spiritual?) about it.

    Such being the case with me, the assertion that the bangle and the plant and the puppy and I are the same is bewildering to me. Unless I have physical and scientific proof, I would rather find it impossible to get convinced in the physical waking state, so that wherever I look, I would learn to look for the same life and consciousness. If some empirical proof at least to their fundamental similarity if not identity could be given it could go a long way for me.

    Is there any such empirical proof? There is.

    The first empirical proof is that the gold bangle and plant and puppy and I are identical at our atomic and sub-atomic levels. We are all made of the same bricks of matter.

    But what about life and consciousness? Am I not smarter than my puppy which is smarter than the plant which for its part is smarter than the glittering gold bangle, which is obviously is the dullest--though most glittering--of the lot? And is not smartness a measure of life and intelligence?

    Dr. Jagadish Chandra Bose, a famouse Indian scientist, developed an apparatus that he called Crescograph and conducted experiments on how the above four classes of existence (the mineral, vegetable, animal and humand kingdoms) react to stimuli. To the astonishment of the world, he found and proved that the reaction was very near identical with metal and plant and animal and man! Here are some quotes from his research papers he submitted to the scientific community, as presented in Annie Besant's book A Study in Consciousness:

    Tetanus, both complete and incomplete, due to repeated shocks, was caused, and similar results accrued, in mineral as in muscle.

    Fatigue was shown by metals, least of all by tin. Chemical re-agents, such as drugs, produced similar results on metals with those known to result with animals - exciting, depressing, and deadly. (By deadly is meant resulting in the destruction of the power of response.)

    A poison will kill a metal, inducing a condition of immobility, so that no response is obtainable. If the poisoned metal be taken in time, an antidote may save its life.

    A stimulant will increase response, and as large and small doses of a drug have been found to kill and stimulate respectively, so have they been found to act on metals. "Among such phenomena," asks Professor Bose, "how can we draw a line of demarcation and say: Here the physical process ends, and there the physiological begins? No such barriers exist."

    Professor Bose has carried on a similar series of experiments on plants, and has obtained similar results. A fresh piece of cabbage stalk, a fresh leaf, or other vegetable body, can be stimulated and will show similar curves; it can be fatigued, excited, depressed, poisoned. There is something rather pathetic in seeing the way in which the tiny spot of light, which records the pulses in the plant, travels, in ever weaker and weaker curves, when the plant is under the influence of poison, falls into a final despairing straight line, and - stops. The plant is dead. One feels as though a murder had been committed - as indeed it has.
    Professor Bose's experiments were followed up by other scientists.

    Mr. Marcus Reed has made microscopical observations which show the presence of consciousness in the vegetable kingdom. He has observed symptoms as of fright when tissue is injured, and further he has seen that male and female cells, floating in the sap, become aware of each other’s presence without contact; the circulation quickens, and they put out processes towards each other.

    More than three years after the publication of Professor Bose’s experiments, some interesting confirmation of his observations arose in the course of M. Jean Becquerel’s study of the N-rays, communicated by him to the Paris Academy of Sciences. Animals under chloroform cease to emit these rays, and they are never emitted by a corpse. Flowers normally emit them, but under chloroform the emanation ceases. Metals also emit them, and under chloroform the emanation again ceases. Thus animals, flowers, and metals alike give out these rays, and alike cease to emanate them under the action of chloroform.
    With such proven scientific experiments that seek to establish the fundamental unity and identity of life and consciousness between all that I have been taught hitherto as animate life and inanimate objects, I think that the next time I would be careful not to drop my metal tumbler when I pick it up to drink water. I would water my plants daily and be wary of over pruning them (the last time I did too much pruning to my hibiscus plant, it refused to blossom for a whole fortnight though it was blooming all over until the previous day!), treat my puppy with love and try to be less moody with myself and others.

  2. #22
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste.

    With such proven scientific experiments that seek to establish the fundamental unity and identity of life and consciousness between all that I have been taught hitherto as animate life and inanimate objects,.
    Namste Saidevo,
    thank you for this great post. It is very rewarding to see that science can lend a helping hand. That this commonality is there. I see this too as the commonality of akasha. Science wonders at this, as when they look into matter or into the Universe its mostly akasha. Here's a common theme, as if there is no space , then there is no place for things to exist.
    Hence, akasha is the first fundamantal tattva. Even finer then this akasha is pure consciousness, yet lets hold on this.

    One thing that you mention is the commonality of things, of the tree, puppy, bangle, etc. This is the fundamental principle of the Madhu Brahmanana, found in the Brihadaranyaka. If others are interested we have posted this concept on HDF posts ( if one is interested):

    1. Post one on space in the universe: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1441
    2. Interconnectedness of everything: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...0629#post10629


    last point " The seer (me, and you) the organs of perception (our eyes, our senses, etc) and the object that is seen or experienced are all one thing" - this is the subject matter of Adi Shankara, called Drg-Drsya-Viveka, or the discrimination between the seer and the seen. This is offered if some care to look at this further. Ramakrsna Asram I think may still have this work.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 10 August 2007 at 08:41 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #23
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste

    "this is the subject matter of Adi Shankara, called Drg-Drsya-Viveka, or the discrimination between the seer and the seen. This is offered if some care to look at this further. Ramakrsna Asram I think may still have this work."



    I have this work i.e. Drg-Drsya-Viveka in Spanish. If some one is interested please E-mail me i will send you the book.

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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste Yajvan, Nuno Matos.

    HDF is fast becoming a source of self-contained reference for Hinduism. Here is a brief on the work dR^ig dR^ishya vivekaH posted by me here:

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1536

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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Still caught up on the ocean and the wave thing . Seems that most have not heard of being becalmed, where there are not waves at all and the ocean is as smooth as a piece of glass. It happens rarely and the navy use to send out boats from the main ship to photograph the ship when it happened. Quite an interesting picture.

    The there is the sun sending out waves of photons through a vacuum to keep all life on earth going. And the fire of the sun is burning up the periodic table not down it.

    If a person wants to talk about the ocean then brahman could be the moon. Sitting out in space affecting the ocean , as if by magic, causing the tides to rise and fall at timed intervals. And then look at the salinety of ocean water compared to the salinety of human blood. And while most would say the the moon cannot affect humans talk to the people who work in the emergency room and for the police about full moon nights.




  6. #26
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste.

    ----
    If you want me to carefully look at a golden bangle and ask me what exactly do I see, my obvious answer would be that it is a bangle first and then only gold. My physical sense of vision, my eyes do see the bangle and the gold in it, sure, but the form overwhelmingly hides the content. If you want me to perceive it as gold, I would need to have it flattened into no shape or form. All the while, though, I know that it is just gold, that the form is only superficial, but I don't realize the truth with conviction. I don't think I shall ever have such realization, unless I do something special (spiritual?) about it.

    ----
    Namaste Saidevoji,

    May be some day suddenly, like a flash, one will be convinced "Oh, the bangle is just a name of a shape in the collective consciousness".

    Then further, if one followed the prescriptions similar to Ramana Maharshi's, one would realise, ----- well one would see the connection between consciousness and its shapes and names. The names are known in the consciousness (and by the consciousness) and the shapes are known in the consciousness (and by the cosciousness). However, what is further illuminated in flashes is the link from Pragnya to Taijjassa to Vaisvanaro. I believe that these are the real three steps of Vishnu and in the dust of these three steps the whole Universe is gathered.


    The I awareness everywhere is subtle and intelligent but the objects do not have intrinsic awareness.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 02 August 2007 at 09:47 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  7. #27
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    Still caught up on the ocean and the wave thing . Seems that most have not heard of being becalmed, where there are not waves at all and the ocean is as smooth as a piece of glass. It happens rarely and the navy use to send out boats from the main ship to photograph the ship when it happened. Quite an interesting picture.

    The there is the sun sending out waves of photons through a vacuum to keep all life on earth going. And the fire of the sun is burning up the periodic table not down it.

    If a person wants to talk about the ocean then brahman could be the moon. Sitting out in space affecting the ocean , as if by magic, causing the tides to rise and fall at timed intervals. And then look at the salinety of ocean water compared to the salinety of human blood. And while most would say the the moon cannot affect humans talk to the people who work in the emergency room and for the police about full moon nights.


    Dear Willie , thank you for your assessment here:
    • sun sending out waves of photons - concur
    • ocean is as smooth as a piece of glass - yep, happens
    • brahman could be the moon - yes, as Brahman is everything, even you and me, Willie
    • emergency room and for the police about full moon nights - yes, the moon influences manas - a key point in Jyotish
    Yet , Willie, these analogies, the ocean , we are headed to explain a subtle idea of consciousness. We are using these metaphors to help the mind get a grasp on something that is not discussed on a daily basis. It's really is not about the ocean, or the projector, or the candle, really.... its about the fabric of consciousness.

    Wanted to let you know because we are now moving on, the ocean has served its purpose. If you care to talk about protons, and the billions of neutrino's that pass though ones finger each milli-second, an pi-mesons , bosons, fliptons, etc. we can, yet, let me recommend we continue over on the Science folder of HDF and we can have a lively discussion there. As for now , we are taking this chitta idea to the next conversation platform.
    .

    Thanks ,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #28
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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Namaste Atanu ji.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee View Post
    May be some day suddenly, like a flash, one will be convinced "Oh, the bangle is just a name of a shape in the collective consciousness".
    I have always appreciated in my mind your spiritual progress in Advaita to the extent that you are able to prioritize the underlying unity in your thoughts, feelings and emotions. You are the bedrock of Advaita in HDF against which dvaitic and adharmic wave currents break and get weakened.

    I feel that you have perhaps mistaken my words on your analogy of the gold bangle, specially the words "which is obviously is the dullest--though most glittering--of the lot?", and think that I have found fault with your idea. I need to explain myself.

    Yajvan ji has sought our help to explain the nature, expression and role of Consciousness in simple terms to a neophyte seeker. So the 'I' of my post is not me but a neophyte, as you would have surely understood. (I suppose myself to have slightly more travelled than the neophyte on the road to Advaita, which is my path). Here we try to explain the physical expression of Consciousness drawing analogies that suit our purposes. Since the manifestation of life and consciousness in the physical world is in the four kingdoms (mineral, vegetable, animal and human), I chose an example from each.

    You would have noticed that the neophyte seeker when he/she learns about the backing of science he/she feels more convinced and comfortable to contemplate on the metaphysics behind the concepts. As a first step he/she ends up learning more and more to look at the fundamental unity and identity in physical manifestation seen in the waking state.

    When the discussion progresses to the trans-physical states, it would be more appropriate to introduce the concepts of Taijasa, Prajna and Turiya and how Consciousness expresses itself in those level, displaying the unity of things more and more.

    I hope you have understood that it will never be intention to doubt the Advaita behind manifestation, though in practice it is easier and necessary to get well grounded in the Karma and Bhakti Yoga paths.

  9. #29
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    Wink Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post

    This famous assertion of Advaitic Unity of life and consciousness behind all manifestations is known to us only metaphysically and experienced mystically.

    Is there any such empirical proof? There is.

    ... N-rays ...

    With such proven scientific experiments ...
    Namaste Saidevo,

    I completely agree with the thesis of universal consciousness, but the existence of N-rays was disproved 100 years ago!

    N-rays are merely an artefact of wishful thinking, and certainly not scientific proof of anything (except poor experimental design).

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    Re: Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Atanu ji.

    -----
    I feel that you have perhaps mistaken my words on your analogy of the gold bangle, specially the words "which is obviously is the dullest--though most glittering--of the lot?", and think that I have found fault with your idea. I need to explain myself.

    -----
    I hope you have understood that it will never be intention to doubt the Advaita behind manifestation, though in practice it is easier and necessary to get well grounded in the Karma and Bhakti Yoga paths.
    Namaste Saidevoji,

    Actually, I thought that your post in question shows positively the effect of enquiring what a bangle is. Towards that end, I tried to re-inforce the need of a subtle thinking/appreciation, by repeating the analogies. The point is that these intuitional flashes and realisation of the verities of Upanishadic teachings will not dawn till one is subtle.

    Your point is very well taken. It is true that Bhakti and selfless Karma are the basic requirements, but contemplation leads to intuitional flashes --- that I personally associate with Lord Indra. Bhakti and Karma, without jnana, may have the effect of stabilizing one in duality forever.

    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 03 August 2007 at 10:43 AM. Reason: To correct a source of possible ambiguity
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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