Care to Discuss this? Consciousness

[willie]

In the rem state I know a lot of people who have solved some tough problems while in that state. Maybe a lot of people have been to the 4th state and just don't remember it. These rishi's might just have been lucky enought to have remember being in it.

Hopefully there will be some pet scan to look at and perhaps some news of the recent german experiment in trying to decern if people are telling the truth or not. Now there is some cutting edge research.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~

In the rem state I know a lot of people who have solved some tough problems while in that state. Maybe a lot of people have been to the 4th state and just don't remember it. These rishi's might just have been lucky enough to have remember being in it.

Hello Willie,
a most excellent post... That is exactly right, many visit this 4th, not even aware of what it was. I know many that have done this using a different venue other then meditation e.g. music. They tell me of this experience and they like it, but not sure what it was, yet know it was good, wholesome, etc.

Now where is this experience found innocently?

• In samdhya, the gap or the in-between time. for many this samdhya is the 'in between time' found in the 24 hr periods. The time of dawn and then in the evening twilight, where its not all one quality of Day or all one quality night.
• Like that, there are these gaps also in consciousness, not all waking, not all sleep, not all sleep not all dream. These are the conscious gaps.
• In those gaps it is generally easier to experience ( best word I have as I type, but not accurate) this turiya at this time... that is way it has been 'classical' to have meditation times during these samdhya of the day. These gap times of day and night are more supportive for meditation and for the gap to shine through.
• How can this be assisted by the individual? By sama - or calmness, even-ness. This is the point of meditation , to calm the fluctuations of the mind to to give it an opportunity to experience this gap. There is noting one has to do ... it is just to allow the mind to settle down. This turiya is there, it does not have to be built.
  
  As Krsna says "calmness is said to be the means." (Chapt 6.3 Bhagavad Gita)

What the risi's suggest is this turiya is not foreign to us ... it is part and parcel part of Being. All that are human are welcomed to experience this. I am in hopes on this post we get to that level of discussion.

Thank you for the post as this definitely moves the conversation forward.

[Kaos]

Hopefully there will be some pet scan to look at and perhaps some news of the recent german experiment in trying to decern if people are telling the truth or not. Now there is some cutting edge research.

While all these cutting edge research sounds nice and fancy, scientists are basically going round and round in circles and ending up in same spot they began with.


Science talks of the relativeness, and yet does not say what is the absolute. The only absolute is brahman.


This is the nescience that scientists insists to be called science.

Scientists talk about trying to find proof, evidence. They don't even know what mind is, what is consciousness, let alone the Absolute.

Of course, scientists conducting all these research experiments because it uses up government funds, research grants and make them look like they know what they're doing.

[willie]

In the last few years brain research has moved lightyears forward. The brain work with electro chemical mechanisms. The beauty of the pet scan is that it works with and active brain and can tell which parts of the brain is active during a certain process. It is fast for a scan and is shows the readers the active brain, so when the thougths change the display changes in real time.

A down side is that it uses a short term radioactive material material attached to sugar. A lot of people don't like the radioactive idea at all. Then there is the cost, the radioactive material is not cheap and some scans can cost 6000 for the tracer alone.

If we could get someone who could get to this 4th state reliable then we could see what part of the brain was active and then find out how to make it active more and more. It seems that someone should have done this by now.

[sarabhanga]

Science talks of the relativeness, and yet does not say what is the absolute. The only absolute is brahman.

Scientists talk about trying to find proof, evidence. They don't even know what mind is, what is consciousness, let alone the Absolute.

In relativity, the one absolute is Light. All matter is ultimately created from photons (in various combinations), and these photons define space and time by their own existence. But from the perspective of free photons (electromagnetic radiation) or anything that moves at the same speed as light, there is no time and no space, and all possibilities are open. And attaining the speed of light is only possible by shedding all material nature and becoming one with light itself.

The break comes when science asks how and why this light (which has all been present since the first moment of creation) was originally produced. Was the �Big Bang� a spontaneous event (simply because �nature abhors a vacuum�), or was it caused (and in which case, what is the cause)? And from this point science understands that all is pure speculation and personal opinion.

In absolute singularity (or advaita) there is no reference for any normal relations or reactions, and empirical evidence or even the idea of observation is impossible, because such things (by their nature) require a framework of duality.

And God said �Let there be Light�.

No scientific hypothesis (apart from purely abstract mathematical or logical arguments) can ever be absolutely proven. Hypotheses may be disproved, but those still standing are known by all scientists to be our �best guess� at the present time.

I can see no particular division between true Religion and true Science, and I would say that spiritualists who scoff at all science are equally as misguided as scientists who scoff at all religion.

[atanu]

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I can see no particular division between true Religion and true Science, and I would say that spiritualists who scoff at all science are equally as misguided as scientists who scoff at all religion.

Nicely said. This is true, in general of most divisions.

Highest scientists have acknowledged that it is easier to examine the seen, but it rather impossible to examine the seer and his origin, with mind.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Good conversations by all.

As we look to these 4/4th's - waking, dreaming , sleep, and turiya, it is turiya that is next to spend some time on.

For many it is something that may be sensed but not experienced, for others, it may be an experience that is in-describable; for some, not even an idea of what this is - a foreign concept that is new to them and this may be the first time [on HDF posts] they have heard of this notion. And its all okay. Turiya exists with or without ones knowledge of it.

This turiya is unchangable and indescribable - so saying what it is outright challanges the english langage we use, as it limits or constricts the truth (satyam) of this 4th.

Patanjali-ji (author of Yoga Darsana or the Yoga sutras) may say , take away all the fluxuations of the the mind, this is where one starts to get to turiya.
What would we take away?
Distraught (ksipta) - perhaps envy and malice; anger
Stupefied (mudha) - obsession and infatuations; greed
Restlessness (viksipta) - the ceaseless fidgeting of the mind; one may go from a calm mind, back to agitated.

These states of mind keep the mind at the surface level , highly engaged with the world; with 'me and mine' concepts of living. It tightly couples action and reaction over and over again. ( more on this in a bit). Theses are the fluxations- the daily activities we cycle though.

Are there states of mind that are favorable?
One pointed mind (ekagra) - that is as one thought fades away, the same exact thought/idea arises anew; consistency of thought

Arrested (nirodhana) - all thoughts are arrested; that is the fluxuations of the mind , through practice, have been arrested, ceased.

The last two are fundamentally the 'technique' to calm the mind, and to expose turiya. Take away everything that the mind is not ( mind stuff as some call it) and what remains? turiya.

More as we practice ekaagra on this subject - to poke around on this matter of turiya a bit more. Lets see what others have to say on this and see if we can address questions , comments and ideas.

I am in hopes some that had or have this experience can comment on their experience to help others?

Let me humbly take a stab at it - I can only explain it with one word.
Clear - this is the only word I can think of that expresses the experience for me. Others may have a different notion; yet this world resonates the best.

Now, before anyone brings this up (and I know the creative folks on HDF will) this word is used in Scientology - I do not practice this and know little about it. Again, I do not want to use worlds (sanskrit) that only makes this experience esoteric ( we will get to the words for this) but lets be simple about it and keep the terms easy on the brain for now.

pranams,

[Kaos]

I can see no particular division between true Religion and true Science, and I would say that spiritualists who scoff at all science are equally as misguided as scientists who scoff at all religion.

Pardon me, but you yourself have made a division, in your mind, by stating "true Religion and true Science.", thereby making a distinction between a "true" and a "false".

Are you implying that Sarabhanga alone is privy to what is and what is not "true Religion" and "true Science", all the rest are misguided because Sarabhanga alone can see no particular division whatsoever.

When you have made your position clear, then we can proceed.

[saidevo]

In the last few years brain research has moved lightyears forward. The brain work with electro chemical mechanisms. The beauty of the pet scan is that it works with and active brain and can tell which parts of the brain is active during a certain process. It is fast for a scan and is shows the readers the active brain, so when the thougths change the display changes in real time.

Does this imply that science believes that human thoughts originate in the human brain, which science believes to be the human mind? Is thought nothing more than a chain of electro-neuro-chemical reactions that flow and activate the sense organs? If so, who/what originates those thought-processes and how? If thoughts are brainy reactions to sensual inputs from the world of observations and that dreams are interplay of the residual currents of those processes, the brain would be practically dead in its thinking areas in deep sleep! If it is, how does it 'wake up' to the normal state?

If science believes in a soul in human body though it can't prove it empirically, then it amounts to science admitting that it is the soul that drives the brain. Where does this soul reside in the body and why can't it originate thoughts being higher in status?

If brain is all there is to the human mind for storage and play out of its thoughts, then everything should be wiped clean at death of the physical body. But time and again stories of reincarnation crop up proving that the 'brain' lives between 'lives'. Not in all cases can these stories be dismissed as false?

Unless science does have some hypothesis about the human soul and mind as trans-physical entities, science would probably be groping in the gross grey matter of the brain for all that a human is.

[Kaos]

In the last few years brain research has moved lightyears forward. The brain work with electro chemical mechanisms. The beauty of the pet scan is that it works with and active brain and can tell which parts of the brain is active during a certain process. It is fast for a scan and is shows the readers the active brain, so when the thougths change the display changes in real time.

A typical post from these "scientists" wannabees in this forum.
You talk about "electro chemical mechanism", "pet scans" and such.

But what is the origin of these "electro chemical mechanisms" or the source of the intelligence that enables a pet scan to perfom these novel
feats?

When you have presented your scientific evidence, we can proceed the discussion.