Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 48

Thread: Brahman has no guna?

  1. #1

    Brahman has no guna?

    Does the nirguna of advaita mean "devoid of all gunas"? If so, is Brahman without any guna at all? Wouldn't this make brahman similar to the buddhist idea of sunya?

    OTOH, if nirguna means "devoid of triguna", does it mean Brahman has qualities which we're not capable of grasping? In that case, advaita will be no different from other schools like dvaita, VA, because they also hold similar views.

    Which one of the following is true?

    *Brahman empty of all guna

    or

    *Brahman full of gunas but empty of triguna?

    Hope learned members can help.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    Does the nirguna of advaita mean "devoid of all gunas"? If so, is Brahman without any guna at all? Wouldn't this make brahman similar to the buddhist idea of sunya?

    OTOH, if nirguna means "devoid of triguna", does it mean Brahman has qualities which we're not capable of grasping? In that case, advaita will be no different from other schools like dvaita, VA, because they also hold similar views.

    Which one of the following is true?

    *Brahman empty of all guna

    or

    *Brahman full of gunas but empty of triguna?

    Hope learned members can help.
    Namaste Suresh,

    What does empty of trigunas mean?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Sahasrarkadyutirmatha
    Posts
    1,802
    Rep Power
    191

    Post Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Namaste Suresh,

    Nirguna Brahman is without guna (quality) ~ not entirely lacking or void, but rather in the sense of being beyond any particular qualification, condition, or attribute. Nirguna Brahman is the absolute, unqualified Brahman ~ without quality but providing the substrate for all qualities. Saguna Brahman can say “I am this, and this” (ad infinitum), but Nirguna Brahman only says “I am”.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1915

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Namaste Suresh.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    1 & 2. Nirguna Brahman is without guna (quality) ~ not entirely lacking or void, but rather in the sense of being beyond any particular qualification, condition, or attribute.

    3. Nirguna Brahman is the absolute, unqualified Brahman ~ without quality but providing the substrate for all qualities.

    4. Saguna Brahman can say “I am this, and this” (ad infinitum), but Nirguna Brahman only says “I am”.
    This analogy may perhaps be helpful in understanding the ideas presented above: deep sleep (suSupti) that we go into every night.

    1. Deep sleep is not entirely lacking or void: there is a break in consciousness, the physical and dream worlds vanish, the mind withdraws into Atma, we are aware of nothing. Yet we remain the very same person when we wake up the next morning, all our vAsanAs (impressions) intact.

    2. Deep sleep is beyond any particular qualification, condition, or attribute: there is no light or color yet it is not darkness, no atmosphere yet it is not void, no ideation yet it is not death. Everything is still, inert and frozen and the Self does not see it, or at least remember seeing it. Only the Self is there immersed in the Unity around.

    3. Deep sleep is the absolute, unqualified ~ without quality but providing the substrate for all qualities: In our existence as a human being we pass through the cycle of three states every day: wakefulness, dreamful sleep, deep sleep. The worlds we see and create in the first two states are unreal in the sense they change every moment at their elementary levels. The 'world' that exists in deep sleep is the only Reality on which the other states are built and projected.

    This absolute state reflects the SatChitAnanda state of Brahman. It is Sat--the absolute Reality, Chit--absolute Consciousness and Ananda--absolute Bliss. Again these Sat, Chit, Ananda are not attributes or qualities because they don't exist or expressed independently in that Infinity/Eternity. In deep sleep our Self gets beyond manifestation and touches this state of SatChitAnanda, yet with all its impressions intact.

    4. Since there is only the Self in deep sleep, it is the existence 'I am'. This Atma manifests as Jiva from the Sat with its impressions that lie dormant in the Chit of deep sleep. Once this manifestation takes place the existence 'I am' changes to 'I am this' and the Ananda is lost, albeit temporarily.

    "Death is like falling asleep,
    and birth is like waking from that sleep." -- TiruvaLLuvar

    It is the break in consciousness that gives us only a iota of remembrance and the feeling 'I slept well last night.' Unable to express the Ananda of the deep sleep state, we translate it into the feeling of a good sleep. If we can have the continuity of consciousness in all the three states, then we can start having the Bliss in all those states and have a taste of Self-Realization.

    The English terms 'falling into sleep', and 'fast asleep' are expressive. Just as a wave falls back into the ocean we fall into sleep. Just as the shutters are made fast to lull the flow of water into stillness, we are fast asleep.

    My comparasion of deep sleep with Nirguna Brahman may seem flippant because they are not identical, yet it could serve to get some idea of That which cannot be understood my mind or intellect.

    Or can we perhaps say that like the Atman, Brahaman also has its three states of conditional and cyclic reality projected over a part of its Infinity and under its Eternity? The Nirguna Brahman is its deep sleep state, the state of SatChitAnanda between the cycles of creation. The Saguna Brahman is the dream state, a maya with its changing and conditional reality. The Atman manifesting as Jivas is the wakeful state of the universe and its beings.

    There is one difference, though. Atman manifests itself in full into Jiva, whereas Brahman manifests only a part of Itself.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    369

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Dear Suresh,

    I suppose by trigunas you mean the triple categories of Gunas: Sattwik, Rajasic, and Tamasic. With this assumption I will ask you "What are those gunas which are beyond the scope of the three categories?"

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #6

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Dear Suresh,

    I suppose by trigunas you mean the triple categories of Gunas: Sattwik, Rajasic, and Tamasic. With this assumption I will ask you "What are those gunas which are beyond the scope of the three categories?"

    Om
    Such guna might be like: imperishability, invincibility, immutability etc

    I think Nirguna Brahman= energy(shakti) which is unutilized in its raw form where it is not differentiated into different kinds.

    Saguna Brahman = It is the sum total of different kinds of energies like gravitational, magnetic, electrostatic etc all of which have their origin in the raw source. Yet Saguna Brahman=Nirguna Brahman in total energy which is infinite.

  7. #7

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    If the concept of two Brahmans is confusing, it is better understood this way.

    What is Brahman? Scriptures tell us that the essential nature of Brahman is undescribable, ungraspable, a being, a non being and so forth. This is the Nirguna Brahman. When viewed as the ruler of this universe ( which has come about through his maya shakti) he is called Saguna Brahman. Since "ruler of the universe" does not fully describe the Brahman or throw light on his essential nature the two Brahmans are not exactly identical in scope( hence the need for the dual concept), but refer to the same Absolute Being - it is like a person wearing costume for a fancy dress competition which will be cast off after the show.

  8. #8

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Namaskara Sarabhanga,

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Suresh,

    Nirguna Brahman is without guna (quality) ~ not entirely lacking or void,
    NG has no guna, NG is not void. Is there anything other than these two states of existence?

    Nirguna Brahman is the absolute, unqualified Brahman ~ without quality but providing the substrate for all qualities.
    Would it be reasonable to consider this as a special quality or power of NG (that it could be substrate of all qualities despite itself possessing none)?

  9. #9

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Namskara Saidevo,

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Suresh.

    2. Deep sleep is beyond any particular qualification, condition, or attribute:
    There is peace in deep sleep. So how can we say it's beyond any particular qualification etc.? If there's an experience of deep sleep, then deep sleep cannot be a void. If there's no experience of deep sleep, then deep sleep must be a void. How can we conclude there's a third state?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    223

    Re: Brahman has no guna?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Madhavan View Post
    Such guna might be like: imperishability, invincibility, immutability etc

    I think Nirguna Brahman= energy(shakti) which is unutilized in its raw form where it is not differentiated into different kinds.

    Saguna Brahman = It is the sum total of different kinds of energies like gravitational, magnetic, electrostatic etc all of which have their origin in the raw source. Yet Saguna Brahman=Nirguna Brahman in total energy which is infinite.
    Namaste Madvan & suresh, (et.al)
    A very good conversation. What do the rishi's say about this? Tad Ekam, That One ( neither he or she). There is only one Brahman. To help understand this though, we are stuck with words and concepts. Hence, the Niguna and Saguna ( same coin, just two sides of it). Niguna is quality-less.As many call it Aksara [ a=not + ksi=destroy or perish].

    I think Madvan was going there in this post... just pure potential, without bounds.

    The Guna's do not come into being until there is manifestation. Then the play of these gunas brings us the world, the universe. These three properties are Prakriti ( now we have just switched to Samkaya thinking as we have added Prakriti to the conversation) are really its very constituents, not merely qualifications. Like 3 strands of a rope. Together they go as the rope, yet of 3 strands. They are responsible for giving us the 5 tattvas (elements), the 5 organs of knowledge, the 5 organs of action, etc. 24 principles are laid out in the Samkaya philosophy and then there is the 25th Purusha.

    They , the gunas, work amongst themselves, just as Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita. It is the gunas that act on themselves. (Chapt 3.27 Gita). Krsna says 'be without the 3 gunas' (Chpt 2.45). What ? how do you do that , if this entire universe is operated by their inter-twining actions. How can we be without them? Krsna gives directions, yet the one that is relevant to this post is chapt 4.35, as He says ' Know this O son of Pandu, you will no more fall into such delusions; for through this you will see all beings in your SELF, and also in Me" .

    You got to ask , what is 'this' Krsna refers to? Knowing Reality. Where is this 'Reality' in us? that is the discussion we are stepping though , point by point in this HDF Post series: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1773

    We're trying to lay it out so to avoid being too esoteric and to have folks get a feel that this 'Reality' is not out there some where, but so close to us, its part of every thing we do... perhaps you will have a chance to participate there, as suresh has started. The framework is still being laid out, and the key is in turiya...this is where we will find the answer, in ther 4th.

    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •