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Thread: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

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    The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Sarabhanga (et.al),
    I thought to let a few days go by and re-address this conversation... fresh eyes on this matter is always a good thing.

    Note - I am not addressing this from a debate standpoint, as I have no desire to prove any points. Only pass on a few ideas for ones consideration.
    In the end, the sun will still rise tomorrow in the east, God willing, and Surya will give little matter on whether one's opinions are accepted or not. So here's a few idea's from my parampara regarding this number 1200. This is a discussion of the 1200's audit trail and its significance. I still find myself baffled by Swami Yukteshvar's identification of the present yuga, but respect his approach.



    Units of Time
    In Jyotish oriented Bha Chakra ( the zodiac) we look to a cycle of time that increases (aaroha) and decreases (avaroha). Jyotisha's see this owned by Jupiter and many know of this Jupiter cycle ( 5 X 12 = 60 years). This waxing and waning is owned by the two largest outer planets, Jupiter ( Guru) and Saturn ( Sani). This aaroha + avaroha = 60+60= 120 years. In Kali Yuga this 120 years is considered param ayus or the maximum life span of a human during this period. This is called Vimshottari, or 120 years, as given by Parashara and equates to the Vimshottari Dasa system many jyotisha follow and apply.

    So this term Kali one knows this to be the dark one, yet this 'kal' is a digit, to count and in Jyotish is seen as the digit 1. So , in kali the ayus = 120 years. In other ages ( Yuga) it is multiples of this ( Just like sat yuga is 4X the time of Kali yuga), so it looks like this:
    • Kali chakra = 120 years
    • Dwapara chakra = 2 x 120 = 240 years
    • Treta chakra = 3 x 120 =360 years
    • Kreta chakra = 4 x 120 = 480 years
    Now , if we can just hold for one second because for the seasoned Jyotisha, he will say, Yajvan, the real number for Vimshottari is 120 years and 5 days. Yes, this is true; for this conversation lets not concern ourselves with this 0.00114% offset in 120 years, as its a rounding error when adding up all the years of the graha's dasa's.

    Stopping point #1
    • Note that 120 years X 360 days/year = 43,200 - have you seen this number sequence before? that is the 43,200?
      {this was edited to keep with a 360 ° year ~ = 360 days} We will see this again in just a bit and it helps us connect the logic here.
    • Now lets add up the years of kali to kreta or 120+240+360+480 = 1200 years = 1 mahachakra and is called 1 kali-mahachakra. the cycle continues:
      2 x 1 kali-mahachakra = 2400 years
      3 x 1 kali-mahachakra = 3600 years
      4 x 1 kali-mahachakra = 4800 years
    • if we add these numbers above we get 1200+2400+3600+4800 = 12,000 years or 1 daivachakra.
    It is of interest to me that this is called daiva-chakra. as the name implies, this is luminous/light or daiva + chakra , period or cycle. Here we have one aaroha ( some write aroha, yet "a" is long) or increasing cycle and one decreasing cycle, avaroha , thus 2 X 12,000 or 24,000 year period. Together we have this notion of A-hora-tra or Ahotratra light and dark, day and night = 24,000 years.

    Stopping point # 2
    • 36 x 1 Daiva-chakra (from above) = 432,000. A number most subscribe to that defines the number of years in Kali yuga. Now, where in the heck did I get this 36 number from? why not 22.656778 or 15, or 9? This number comes from Jyotish and the Dreshkana (spelled drekkana) Divisional chart or 1/3rd division as it's called.
    • Drekkana is = to Drek with its root in dri = to see or view. Kana = corner. So in Jyotish, kana is = to a Trine or Tri (3) Kona ( or kana = corner) ... So 3 corners = 120° x 3 corners = 360° of Bha Chakra or the zodiac.
    • In a Drekkana Divisional Chart, the sign is divided up into 3 segments, hence 10° each, = 30° in one sign; yet 3 divisions per sign x 12 signs = 36. 3 corners x 12 signs = 36 total. This is where the 36 is deriived from. Now the wisdom of the parampara is here; these 3 divisions/corners are owned by the Maharishi's - Devarishi Narada, Maharishi Agastya and Brahmarishi Durvasa. Each 10° section has a purpose, Karma, Bhoga and Nasha. We will not go deeper that this for now, but wanted to give you the audit trail of the 36 and how it is all connected. This is the wisdom of Hora-shastra.
    • This now establishes the baseline for other yuga multiples - that is mutiples of kali yuga give us Dwapara, Treta and Sat (Kreta) Yugas, Mahayugas, Kalpha, Manvantara.
    • That said, there are other computations that can also be used, yet I think for now, the 1200 number was the offer of discussion.
    Time of Max Dharma
    Last, but I will not pursue in depth; the Joytish vedanga view states the zodiac is divided into 3 parts or 3 pada, and puts the sandhi ( the junction points) between apa and tejas, all 120° apart. These are the [Visnu & Brahma] nabhi points... We know these nabhi as between Cancer and Leo ( water and fire), Scorpio and Sagittarius ( the direction of the center of the galaxy in Sagittarius as we discussed), and between Pisces and Aries. It is here where Dharma is established. This becomes the conversation of where dharma is on the rise & blossoms to the fullest for the family of man.
    trini pada vi chakrame visnur gopa adabyha
    atho dharmani dharayan


    As my teachger says, this entire creation is due to the union of Brahma and Saraswati ( or the 7 rasa's) and comes into being with diva-kalpa and rests with ratri-kalpha. This happens 2 times per cycle or 7 x 2 = 14 yogas. The 7 rasa's come from the 7 graha's ( no Rahu or Ketu as they have no bodies, hence no rasa). The whole system is connected, it is infinite intelligence at work.


    dhanyavaad,
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 August 2007 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Edited stopping point 1 to 360 day year for consistency
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Post Re: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Thanks for explaining ~ those Guru-based calculations make sense to me.

    The 12,000 year daivacakra and its 24,000 year ahoratra approximately relate to the 26,000 year precessional cycle, but such yugas are only a small part of the traditional 432,000 year kaliyuga ~ which would include 33 of these daivacakra ahoratras.

    If there are three fundamental high points in the cycle of dharma, and if they are directly related with the precessional cycle, then the peaks would be separated by only 8,640 years, each period being an ahoratra of two 4,320 year great seasons. And one standard kaliyuga would include 100 such ahoratras.

    If the traditional figure of 432,000 is accurate, then the cycle of yugas must be governed by some cause other than the earth's precession (or perhaps by an interaction of precession with other cycles).

    Or, perhaps 432,000 is an exaggeration (x 100) and the kaliyuga is only one season (i.e. 4,320 years) of the precessional year (?)

    The traditional figure of 25,920 and its various factors appear repeatedly in calculations of cosmic ages, aeons, and eras.

    And in this Great Year there are reckoned 360 Days of 72 years, 12 Months of 2,160 years, and 6 Seasons of 4,320 years.

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    Re: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    Thanks for explaining ~ those Guru-based calculations make sense to me.

    The 12,000 year daivacakra and its 24,000 year ahoratra approximately relate to the 26,000 year precessional cycle, but such “yugas” are only a small part of the traditional 432,000 year kaliyuga ~ which would include 33 of these daivacakra ahoratras.

    If there are three fundamental high points in the cycle of dharma, and if they are directly related with the precessional cycle, then the peaks would be separated by only 8,640 years, each period being an ahoratra of two 4,320 year “great seasons”. And one standard kaliyuga would include 100 such ahoratras.

    If the traditional figure of 432,000 is accurate, then the cycle of yugas must be governed by some cause other than the earth's precession (or perhaps by an interaction of precession with other cycles).

    Or, perhaps 432,000 is an exaggeration (x 100) and the kaliyuga is only one “season” (i.e. 4,320 years) of the precessional year (?)
    Namaste sarabhanga.
    Thank you for your note... I thought it time to go deeper and wanted to get to the 'dna level' - the 60 year cycle of Jupiter which is the 'one cell' that starts the whole process. Jupiter in Jyoish is aksasa, the space that holds everything, a very beneficial graha to us all.

    You have mentioned a few things. The great year of 360 is of key import and the 72. The calculations here I will leave for a fresh piece of paper and a tithi and day other then Saturday AM. That said daiva-varsha = 1 year of the gods = 360 years ( reckoned after 360° is the quick answer) but is again a calculation. This 360 days and nights = 1 year of Brahma, and as you know 100 of such years = 1 lifetime of Brahma = 3.11 trillion earth years.

    This 72 is interesting too, as it signals a 'gap' . There is 72,000 daiva-varsha gap between the 14 Manvantar. It is these gaps that bring dissolution of the material world, yet Brahma is still in existence - He has not completed his 100 year term; It is my understanding Brahma is in His 51st year. ( This is not confirmed by me with calculations, just reading from a few authors )

    All these numbers above have calculations associated to them, yet at the end of the day,43,200 days in Kali yuga = 1 potential lifetime of a human. 432,000 years = 1 Kali yuga period, and becomes the least common denominator for the other yugas we discussed. Hence the 432,000 years is a firm number from my vantage point. All the previous numbers given is the audit trail on how these numbers stand up to the rigor of time and audit tails.

    When you add up the zillions of years and life times of Brahma, and Vsnu and Siva, they all roll up to 1 life time of Mother Divine. Yet I see cycles in side of Cycles... pockets of satva that can occur as can pockets of tamas, and pockets of Dharma.

    You wrote:
    If there are three fundamental high points in the cycle of dharma, and if they are directly related with the precessional cycle, then the peaks would be separated by only 8,640 years, each period being an ahoratra of two 4,320 year “great seasons”. And one standard kaliyuga would include 100 such ahoratras.

    I think we may want to explore this more. I belive there are cycles in cycles and the precession may drive these. Yet the 3 main nabhi's are the complete uplift of Sat Yuga. Again we can discuss this in a new post, but thought to address such a key point , yet not to my satisfaction.

    Last point: IMHO Swamji-ji's 1200 years was taken as earth years not 'Years of the gods' - that is where I believe the dis-connect comes in. Its based upon the motion of the sun in one day or ~1° vs. the motion in one year or 360°. This I believe is the core differentiator. Yet this 1200 year period is valued and is a key contributor to the overall final number, yet it tries to inadequately explain Universal time scales based upon the human period alone...

    pranams, and thank you for sharing your knowledge and POV's.
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 August 2007 at 08:52 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Post Re: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Quote Originally Posted by Yajvan

    At the end of the day, 43,200 days in Kali yuga = 1 potential lifetime of a human.
    432,000 years = 1 Kali yuga period, and becomes the least common denominator for the other yugas we discussed.
    Hence the 432,000 years is a firm number from my vantage point.
    Namaste Yajvan,

    Assuming 360 days in a year, and a life span of 120 years, then 432 is bound to appear, but in translating days per human lifetime into years per Kaliyuga the figure has been inflated tenfold.

    The important number is 432.

    In ancient India, the year began at Winter Solstice (Uttarayana) ~ changing to Spring Equinox (Vasant Sampat) under Babylonian and Greek influence at the beginning of the Saka Era (79 AD). As in Sumer, the year was divided into 2 semesters (Satras) of 180 days, and 12 months of 30 days. The obvious discrepancy between a 360-day calendrical year and the true solar year of 365.26 days was corrected by an annual intercalation of 4 to 6 days, which were reserved for special rituals. Later, these days were distributed as months or half-months in a cycle of 5 or 6 years.

    Indian astronomers looked especially to the Moon (Soma). The actual period of lunation is 29.53 days, so that 12 lunar months are completed in 354.37 days; and the Utsarniyanayanam calendar accounted for this with a year of 12 exact lunar months and 11 days reserved for the Atiratra sacrifice. An intercalary period of 12 days was later instituted.

    The Vedanga Jyotisa united the cycles of the Sun and the Moon in a period of 5 years.

    60 + 2 lunar months ≈ 62 x 29 days = 1830 days
    5 solar years ≈ 5 x 366 days = 1830 days

    In practice, the vedic year consists of 12 lunar months, but this is only 1/5th of the 60 month cycle known as a Yuga.

    According to the Vedanga Jyotisa, a cycle begins from the month Magha, when the sun, moon, and Dhanistha (Delphini) are in conjunction at Uttarayana (winter solstice). Every 30 months, an extra month is intercalated; and after 60 plus 2 lunations, the sun and moon again come into conjunction with Dhanistha at the winter solstice, and the cycle is repeated.

    [N.B. Due to the earths precession, other stars have been used in the calculation, but this particular alignment would have been correct c. 1,400 BC. The Vedanga Jyotisa also mentions that the longest day is 14 hours and 24 minutes, which only pertains to a location 33 degrees from the Equator.]

    Kala Yuga is counting a couple, a pair of (30 month) periods.

    A full cycle of 360 degrees includes 72 angles (or angels) of 5 degrees; and a Yuga of 60 lunar cycles must include 432 such units.

    Since Yuga (more widely) indicates an Age or Era, it is cognate with Millennium, and in later times came also to mean an era of 1,000 years. And (perhaps) subsequent confusion of the concepts led to the notion that an Age must last for 432,000 years.

    The various cosmic cycles all interact, creating a very complex web of influences; and certain individual cycles (otherwise steadily oscillating) can produce sudden dramatic changes as they move in and out of phase with other cycles over time.

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    Re: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,

    Assuming 360 days in a year, and a life span of 120 years, then 432 is bound to appear, but in translating days per human lifetime into years per Kaliyuga the figure has been inflated tenfold.

    The important number is 432.

    In ancient India, the year began at Winter Solstice (Uttarayana) ~ changing to Spring Equinox (Vasant Sampat) under Babylonian and Greek influence at the beginning of the Saka Era (79 AD). As in Sumer, the year was divided into 2 semesters (Satras) of 180 days, and 12 months of 30 days. The obvious discrepancy between a 360-day calendrical year and the true solar year of 365.26 days was corrected by an annual intercalation of 4 to 6 days, which were reserved for special rituals. Later, these days were distributed as months or half-months in a cycle of 5 or 6 years.

    Indian astronomers looked especially to the Moon (Soma). The actual period of lunation is 29.53 days, so that 12 lunar months are completed in 354.37 days; and the Utsarniyanayanam calendar accounted for this with a year of 12 exact lunar months and 11 days reserved for the Atiratra sacrifice. An intercalary period of 12 days was later instituted.

    The Vedanga Jyotisa united the cycles of the Sun and the Moon in a period of 5 years.

    60 + 2 lunar months ≈ 62 x 29 days = 1830 days
    5 solar years ≈ 5 x 366 days = 1830 days

    In practice, the vedic year consists of 12 lunar months, but this is only 1/5th of the 60 month cycle known as a Yuga.

    According to the Vedanga Jyotisa, a cycle begins from the month Magha, when the sun, moon, and Dhanistha (Delphini) are in conjunction at Uttarayana (winter solstice). Every 30 months, an extra month is intercalated; and after 60 plus 2 lunations, the sun and moon again come into conjunction with Dhanistha at the winter solstice, and the cycle is repeated.

    [N.B. Due to the earth’s precession, other stars have been used in the calculation, but this particular alignment would have been correct c. 1,400 BC. The Vedanga Jyotisa also mentions that the longest day is 14 hours and 24 minutes, which only pertains to a location 33 degrees from the Equator.]

    Kala Yuga is “counting a couple”, a pair of (30 month) periods.

    A full cycle of 360 degrees includes 72 angles (or angels) of 5 degrees; and a Yuga of 60 lunar cycles must include 432 such units.

    Since Yuga (more widely) indicates an Age or Era, it is cognate with Millennium, and in later times came also to mean an era of 1,000 years. And (perhaps) subsequent confusion of the concepts led to the notion that an Age must last for 432,000 years.

    The various cosmic cycles all interact, creating a very complex web of influences; and certain individual cycles (otherwise steadily oscillating) can produce sudden dramatic changes as they move in and out of phase with other cycles over time.
    Namaste sarabhanga,

    thank you for your note. Yes 432 and its inflation 10 fold, no doubt and I concur. This number is like 'birdseeds' that are dropped, showing the way. We see many numbers in Jyotish repeated like this. This is a mnemonic of the rishi's to help the sisya like me know we are on the right path. That is why the 5 days is dropped off Vimshottari 120 year number. I see this extra help all the time, and its appreciated. Nice to know one is pointed in the right direction.

    re: Indian astronomers looked especially to the Moon (Soma). The actual period of lunation is 29.53 days, so that 12 lunar months are completed in 354.37 days;
    Said another way ( just another POV) 12 lunar months falls short by 10.875 days to the tropical year. I mention this because from a Jyotish POV, sidereal requires an additional 20 mins be added to a solar year to sync things up and this is where the precession becomes a keystone part of Jyotish, as precession keeps us in touch with our universal surroundings. Tropical does not. That is the key point here and why Jyotish is so different then Western astrology. Not better as both are tools, yet we're different by ~ 21° due to precession ( and getting wider by the famous 50.23" or 50.24" or ... whatever one uses, many follow Lahari as mentioned previously.

    Re: 360 - The key point for me is all about 360° - this is a number that will not change over eons. This is a key principle in the parampara. Even if the year expands to 400 days per year, it still has to complete a 360° path. So much of the software from our parampara allows one to do things into numbers of measures ( days, years) and/or in space (degrees).

    You have mentioned a solar year of 365.26 - also some other points.
    i.e. 4 to 6 days, which were reserved for special rituals. Later, these days were distributed as months or half-months in a cycle of 5 or 6 years. I am not familiar or knowledgeable on this & perhaps I can learn from you. In Joytish we do not use a solar year that is tropical, but a sidereal year. Perhaps that is the number you were considering, as the number you show is 365.26 , its closer to sidereal then to tropical.

    re: In ancient India, the year began at Winter Solstice (Uttarayana)
    Kinda makes sense. Yet the reason Spring is very attractive is because of Aries being the first house. And the Jupiter-Saturn Conjunction in Aries begins a Ahotratra cycle here.

    I do not know what NB stands for. You also mention a 14 hour day? I will assume 'day' here means sunlight available. Makes sense. Can you help me understand how it fits in? Good info but I am trying to connect the dots.

    I do not understand Kali Yuga as 30 months. Is this the base number to get to 1,000 years as a yuga vs. 432,000?

    [ reply on this only if you have the time...there's bigger fish to fry I would think ]

    re: creating a very complex web of influences; and certain individual cycles - yes I concur. This IMHO is why there are so many different views on this matter. One has to spend lots of time first figuring out what metrics a person is coming from to begin an in-depth conversation. That said;

    "There is not even one Rishi whose opinion can be accepted by all; the truth about religion and duty is hid in caves: therefore, that alone is the path along which the great have trod. This world, full of ignorance is like a pan. The sun is fire the days and nights are fuel. The months and the seasons constitute the wooden ladle. Time is the cook that is cooking all creatures in that pan (with such aids); this is the news." ...Yudhishthira-Yaksha Prasna, Vana Parva - Mahabrahata

    Thank you again for the time you have taken...valued conversations.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 19 March 2008 at 11:05 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Post Re: The 1200 year number; one audit trail

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Re: 360

    Since 60 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, a sexagesimal (base 60) numbering would facilitate the manipulation of a large range of fractions. Such a system was used in ancient Sumer from around 3,200 BC; and it has proved to be the most convenient method for reckoning circles and cyclic phenomena.

    Sumerian astronomers recognized two fundamental cycles in nature ~ the solar day and solar year. Each of these is clearly divided (by twilight and equinox, respectively) into a lighter and a darker half. One half-day (night or day) was comprised of 6 hours (double hours by our reckoning), and each hour of 60 minutes. The seasons were each divided into 6 months of 30 days (closely approximating the observed synodic months); and, just as there are 360 degrees in a circle, the Sumerian calendar supposed 360 days in a year (with a periodic intercalation of days and months to correct the accumulated error).

    Re: 365.26 and ancient calendars

    The exact number is not important ~ I was only indicating that the year is actually observed to be a few days longer than 360, so the theoretical calendar requires the regular intercalation of special days that are beyond the normal calendar (and considered as outside of normal time with its normal regulations and activities).

    The 12 days of Christmas (for example) are a reminder of such calendric requirements ~ perhaps related to the lunar Utsarniyanayanam calendar, which accounted for the year with 12 exact lunar months and 11 (or later 12) days reserved for the Atiratra sacrifice. And when we realize that the ancient Indian calendar began at the winter solstice, the Christmas analogy is strengthened.

    In ancient India, as in Sumer, the year was divided into 2 semesters of 180 days, and 12 months of 30 days. The obvious discrepancy between a 360-day calendrical year and the solar year of about 365 days was corrected by an annual intercalation of 4 to 6 days, which were reserved for special rituals. Later, these days were distributed as months or half-months in a cycle of 5 or 6 years.

    Some calendars were solar and some were lunar, but the Vedanga Jyotisa devised a system that united the cycles of the Sun and the Moon in a period of 5 years or exactly 1830 days.

    According to the Vedanga Jyotisa, a cycle begins from the month Magha, when the sun, moon, and Dhanistha (Delphini) are in conjunction at Uttarayana (winter solstice). Every 30 months, an extra month is intercalated; and after 60 plus 2 lunations, the sun and moon again come into conjunction with Dhanistha at the winter solstice, and the cycle is repeated.
    This 5 year (60 month) cycle, was know as a Yuga.

    Yuga indicates both a Yoke or Couple and an Age or a Life.

    And the 60 month era (just as other cycles are composed of light and dark halves) was considered as a pair of 30 month periods.

    Kal means to count or reckon. And I deliberately used the term Kala (not Kali) Yuga to describe this particular calendar as counting a couple (i.e. 2 x 30 months).

    Kala particularly indicate an Instant (of time), and as a unit of time (or circular movement generally) one Kala is a span of one minute (or a 1/60 part).

    And in such a Yuga of five solar years, there are 432 arc-segments of five degrees traversed.

    NB stands for nota bene (or note well) and I mentioned that the quoted stars in this ancient system do not actually line up as described, due to the earths precession, but that they would have been appropriate at about 1400 BC. And I also mentioned the maximum length of daylight in one day, as recorded in the Vedanga Jyotisa. The first information gives us some idea of when the text was composed, and the second tells us the latitude at which its observations were made (i.e. 33 degrees north).

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