The Import of Turiya ...

[sarabhanga]

Is prAjñA of turIya brahmA same as third state "Shushupti?"
And is there some scripture that says turya = ---- = sahasrAra?

Namaste Atanu,

suSupti (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness) is the same as prAjña or pra-ajña (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness); and this is the turIyAtIta consciousness.

The turIya-atIta has “passed away” into the turIya, as “one who has gone beyond”.

I have related the prajñA of turya with the indiscriminate wisdom of sahasrAra, and the prAjñA of turIya with the wisely discriminating intelligence of AjñA. The “thousand rays” remain uncounted and effectively advaita (as absolute illumination), while the two rays of AjñA are decisively dvaita (as brightness and darkness). And all sense of dvaita is extinguished when consciousness is raised beyond the limits of AjñA cakra.

Expanding the equation again, to reveal the SaTcakra:

prajñA = sahasrAra = turya = M
prAjñA = AjñA = shambhu = AUM
prAjña = vishuddha = sadAshiva = haM
ajña = anAhata = IshAna = yaM
AjñA = maNipUra = rudra = raM
ajñA = svAdhiSThAna = viSNu = vaM
jña = mUlAdhAra = brahmA = laM

And in this context, the turya (even more subtle than shambhu) is known as parashiva (parabrahma or brahmapara).

According to the SaTcakra nirUpaNa:

tadUrdhve … shUnyadeshe … padmaM dashashatadalaM … kevalAnandarUpaM

Above all these … in the vacant space … is the lotus of a thousand petals … and it is the absolute Bliss.

Iha sthAne devaH paramashivasmAkhyAnasiddhaH prasiddhaH svarUpI sarvAtmA

Here is the Deva who is known to all as Paramashiva. He is the Brahman and the Atma of all beings.

shivasthAnaM shaivAH paramapuruSaM vaiSNavagaNA
lapantIti prAyo hariharapadaM kecidapare
pabaM devyA devicaraNayugalAMbhojarasikA
munIndrA apyanye prakRtipuruSasthAnamamalaM

The Shaivas call it the abode of Shiva; the Vaishnavas call it Parama Purusha; others again call it the place of Hari-Hara. Those who are filled with a passion for the lotus feet of the Devi call it the excellent abode of the Devi; and other great sages call it the pure place of Prakriti-Purusha.

It is the Sahasrara Lotus, and it is the Turya Self.

[sarabhanga]

J�ana is waking up from the dream. What is Vij�ana?!

Namaste Nuno,

vij�Ana is worldly knowledge, the knowledge of nAra,
j�Ana is spiritual knowledge, the knowledge of nArAyaNa, and
praj�Ana is ultimate knowledge, the knowledge of nara.

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Atanu (et al.),

Yoga is the reconciliation and unification of nara and nAra; and the process involves a transformation of consciousness, from the basic sentience and animal instinct of mUlAdhAra cakra to the transcendental wisdom of sahasrAra cakra.

So, how can we make this transformation from the simple �knowing� of j�a into the �great knowledge� of praj�A?

It is the operation of Sanskrit itself which provides the clue!

The literal transfiguration from j�a to praj�A involves a graduation of consciousness through its various degrees, but (whatever the course) the progression must go via aj�a (�forgetting�).

Sanskrit has suggested the absolute necessity of forgetting or unlearning in the quest for ultimate knowledge, and the Sages have confirmed this dictum by personal experience.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Atanu (et al.),

The literal transfiguration from jña to prajñA involves a graduation of consciousness through its various degrees, but (whatever the course) the progression must go via ajña (“forgetting”).
.

Namaste Sarabhanga,
can you assist me a bit more... I am in doubt of this understanding, the forgetting. My point of reference is quite opposite, so I need to compare and contrast the knowledge you offer.
Let me see if I can articulate a point or two:

• This forgetting - is it that of samadhi? - I can then see the notion here.
• Is it of conscious effort? - then I do not see the notion offered.
• When I think of what has been offered my mind goes directly to Chapt 18.73 of the Gita, and what Arjuna tells Krsna - he says, the opposite that he has regained his memory [smrti] and is now free of doubt i.e. has realized his true SELF.

Perhaps you can offer some insights on some of these ideas and assist me with clarity - perhaps others will also benefit.

pranams,

[Znanna]

Namaste,

From my contrary point of view, the forgetting is a process of letting go of the process, of blowing out an intention like dandelion seeds onto the breeze and letting the natural processes determine the path of growth. Yet, the life in the seed retains its integrity and finds root, creating on its own accord the next germination of life.

The notion of intention, of doing but without the attachment of quantifying the effort of doing? Does the blowing of the seed create the life, or is it the process which invokes the breeze?

Eh, I should delete this whole post

Really, for me, because the process itself is so fun I enjoy the doingness of the doing and am blessed with enjoyment of the 'itness'.

Bottom line: to me there is no greater pleasure, potential of growth, of 'itness' than in meditation. Its manifestation is something I may or not define, but at the moment I don't really care because its loverly (as they said in My Fair Lady) :P

Love,
ZN

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Yajvan (and ZN),

The vij�Ana of nAra is based in duality, within the divided dimensions of both time and space. This knowledge always depends on the recognition of opposite pairs, such as subject and object, male and female, more and less, good and bad, right and left, before and after, cause and effect, this and that, not this and not that, etc., etc..

The j�Ana of nArAyaNa is spiritual rather than material, but it is similarly dualistic, with karma operating in time and space, and with clear distinction of vidya and avidya, satya and asatya, kAla and akala, hara and hari, brahma and brahmA, kRSNa and arjuna, ghora and aghora, etc., etc..

The praj�Ana of nara, however, is entirely advaita, but it is not entirely vacant with all previous knowledge entirely erased. This �great wisdom� indeed comprehends and supersedes all dualistic knowledge, only the dividing lines have been realized as veritable illusion and erased or �forgotten�.

When brightness and darkness are fully comprehended, there is only pure Illumination.

And when all states of consciousness are fully comprehended, there is only pure Being.

[Madhavan]

Namaste Atanu,

suSupti (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness) is the same as prAj�a or pra-aj�a (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness); and this is the turIyAtIta consciousness.

The turIya-atIta has �passed away� into the turIya, as �one who has gone beyond�.

I have related the praj�A of turya with the indiscriminate wisdom of sahasrAra, and the prAj�A of turIya with the wisely discriminating intelligence of Aj�A. The �thousand rays� remain uncounted and effectively advaita (as absolute illumination), while the two rays of Aj�A are decisively dvaita (as brightness and darkness). And all sense of dvaita is extinguished when consciousness is raised beyond the limits of Aj�A cakra.

Expanding the equation again, to reveal the SaTcakra:

praj�A = sahasrAra = turya = M
prAj�A = Aj�A = shambhu = AUM
prAj�a = vishuddha = sadAshiva = haM
aj�a = anAhata = IshAna = yaM
Aj�A = maNipUra = rudra = raM
aj�A = svAdhiSThAna = viSNu = vaM
j�a = mUlAdhAra = brahmA = laM

And in this context, the turya (even more subtle than shambhu) is known as parashiva (parabrahma or brahmapara).

According to the SaTcakra nirUpaNa:

tadUrdhve � shUnyadeshe � padmaM dashashatadalaM � kevalAnandarUpaM

Above all these � in the vacant space � is the lotus of a thousand petals � and it is the absolute Bliss.

Iha sthAne devaH paramashivasmAkhyAnasiddhaH prasiddhaH svarUpI sarvAtmA

Here is the Deva who is known to all as Paramashiva. He is the Brahman and the Atma of all beings.

shivasthAnaM shaivAH paramapuruSaM vaiSNavagaNA
lapantIti prAyo hariharapadaM kecidapare
pabaM devyA devicaraNayugalAMbhojarasikA
munIndrA apyanye prakRtipuruSasthAnamamalaM

The Shaivas call it the abode of Shiva; the Vaishnavas call it Parama Purusha; others again call it the place of Hari-Hara. Those who are filled with a passion for the lotus feet of the Devi call it the excellent abode of the Devi; and other great sages call it the pure place of Prakriti-Purusha.

It is the Sahasrara Lotus, and it is the Turya Self.

Namaste,

There was some difference to this as explained by Sri Ramana.


Question: How to churn up the Nadis (psychic nerves) so that the Kundalini may go up the Sushumna?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Though the Yogi may have his methods of breath control for his object, the Jnani�s method is only that of enquiry. When by this method the mind is merged in the Self, the Sakti or Kundalini, which is not apart from the Self, rises automatically.
The Yogis attach the highest importance to sending the Kundalini up to the Sahasrara, the brain centre or the thousand petalled lotus. They point out the scriptural statement that the life current enters the body through the fontanelle and argue that, Viyoga (separation) having come about that way, yoga (union) must also be effected in the reverse way. Therefore, they say, we must, by yoga practice, gather up the Pranas (vital force) and enter the fontanelle for the consummation of yoga. The Jnanis on the other hand point out that the yogi assumes the existence of the body and its separateness from the Self. Only if this standpoint of separateness is adopted can the yogi advise effort for reunion by the practice of yoga.
In fact the body is in the mind which has the brain for its seat. That the brain functions by light borrowed from another source is admitted by the yogis themselves in their fontanelle theory. The Jnani further argues: if the light is borrowed it must come from its native source. Go to the source direct and do not depend on borrowed sources. That source is the Heart, the Self.
The Self does not come from anywhere else and enter the body through the crown of the head. It is as it is, ever sparkling, ever steady, unmoving and unchanging. The individual confines himself to the limits of the changeful body or of the mind which derives its existence from the unchanging Self. All that is necessary is to give up this mistaken identity, and that done, the ever shining Self will be seen to be the single non-dual reality.
If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of Samadhi ensues. The Vasanas, that is the latent mental tendencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to wake up from the Samadhi because release from bondage has not yet been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the Vasanas inherent in him so that they cease to disturb the peace of his Samadhi. So he passes down from the Sahasrara to the Heart through what is called the Jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the lowest Chakra, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the Heart. When the yogi has reached the Heart, the Samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the Heart is the final centre.


The heart that he mentions here is apparently not the anAhata cakra, but something subtler than all the others. So what Sri Ramana says is that

mUlAdhAra -> svAdhiSThAna -> maNipUra ->anAhata -> vishuddha ->Aj�A -> sahasrAra -> hridaya( Atman)

I feel he is right because realization of the ultimate will burn all karma and their seeds. If samAdhi cannot be maintained, it cannot be the final realization - he calls it the sahaja samAdhi, where there is absolutely no perception of dualty, yet the sage is able to interact with the world like anybody else even outside of the yogic trance.( like Lord Krishna)

We should also note that vedas tell us of two transits of the soul that occur after death - daxiNAyana ( abode of return from the pitr loka) and uttarAyaNa ( brahma loka from where there is no return and progression to non dualty occurs in brahma loka) +{ Gita chapt 8 verses 24-27}

Also uttarAyaNa is the path of krama mukti only according to Sri Shankara, and the not one of absolute 'merger' with the Brahman. This is explained in the Kena Up 3.16 {

There are one hundred and one arteries of the heart, one of which pierces the crown of the head. Going upward by it, a man at death attains immortality. But when his prana passes out by other arteries, going in different directions, then he is reborn in the world.}

This verse is considered to belong to krama mukti by Sri Shankara. So it is evident that according to both Shankara and Ramana, the sahasrAra is not the ultimate destination, but one that leads to the brahma loka upon death ( of near equality with brahma but not identical to him in all respects).

[atanu]

Namaste All

From Karikas

76. When one no longer perceives the highest, the intermediate and the lowest consciousness, it undergoes no birth. How can there be an effect without a cause?

77. The birthlessness of consciousness when free from causes is absolute and constant - all this is merely something perceived by the birthless, non-dual consciousness.

78. Having realised the truth of causelessness, and not accepting any individual cause, one attains freedom from fear, suffering and desire.

---------

I feel that classification/reclassification and understanding is always the part of mental action, which is extroverted. By first letting go of the knowledge of non-Self, through introverted enquiry: WHO HAS THIS CONSCIOUSNESS?, the Who is found as it is.

It is as simple as meditating on the I awareness since as Panchkam indicates, I in everybeing is the pratayksha.

Sahsrarara is where Soma is -- the pure mind (there is a Rig Vedic verse to this effect. But the Atman is the Hridaya, the progenitor of Soma.

Atman is not found without knowing the nature of one's nature, i.e. of the true nature of I. This is Ramana Guru's teaching. At the same time, Ramana also validated all other sanatana dharma paths, classed under two ways: TOTAL SURRENDER or ENQUIRY into the NATURE OF I.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Madhavan]

Sahsrarara is where Soma is -- the pure mind (there is a Rig Vedic verse to this effect. But the Atman is the Hridaya, the progenitor of Soma.

sahasrAra is brahma ~ hridaya is brahmayoni. The whole point of this thread.

Though you have explained well that knowing that source "I" is the final quest, we will encounter many intermediate "I" in the process, that is where theory can help. Various cakras serve as various centres that give rise to false "I". One needs to understand fully every false "I" on the way before the true source of all beings can be reached.

In the path of surrender, "I" is voluntarily reliquished and a "Thou" is sought. The knowledge of "Thou" increases gradually until Thou becomes all ( incluidng I). { sarvam khalvidam brahma} This is bhakti yoga.

In enquiry, "thou" is relegated to secondary status and "I" is sought. In the process, various false "I" come into the picture which must be understood and the higher "I" sought at every step, until "I" becomes "Thou". { neti neti} This is jnana yoga.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan (and ZN),

The vijñAna of nAra is based in duality, within the divided dimensions of both time and space. This knowledge always depends on the recognition of opposite pairs, such as subject and object, male and female, more and less, good and bad, right and left, before and after, cause and effect, this and that, not this and not that, etc., etc..

The jñAna of nArAyaNa is spiritual rather than material, but it is similarly dualistic, with karma operating in time and space, and with clear distinction of vidya and avidya, satya and asatya, kAla and akala, hara and hari, brahma and brahmA, kRSNa and arjuna, ghora and aghora, etc., etc..

The prajñAna of nara, however, is entirely advaita, but it is not entirely vacant with all previous knowledge entirely erased. This “great wisdom” indeed comprehends and supersedes all dualistic knowledge, only the dividing lines have been realized as veritable illusion and erased or “forgotten”.

When brightness and darkness are fully comprehended, there is only pure Illumination.

And when all states of consciousness are fully comprehended, there is only pure Being.

Namaste Sarabhanga (et.al)
I have read and re-read the posts here, yet my doubts remain.
My doubts are quite parochial.

Let me , if I may, focus on one area of verbiage... note I do this for comprehension , to pick a kernal of wisdom so it will sprout in me, as of this instant this seed is dormant.

You write:
This “great wisdom” indeed comprehends and supersedes all dualistic knowledge, only the dividing lines have been realized as veritable illusion and erased or “forgotten”.

• Yes I 'get' great wisdom supercedes dualistic knowledge, as for me, it transcends it, this is intuitive and resonates well.
• "Only the dividing lines" need to be "realized as veritable illusion and erased or fogotten ... Note I added words to your sentence - is this what you meant or intended ? If so then it aligns well with Patanjali muni's instruction of (viveka) or the distinction between buddi (intellect) and Purusha (pure consciousness or the transcendent) - and I get it.
• Being practical, is this fogetting a conscious exercise? In your opinion what is the process to invoke? For me, I am confortable with my practice, yet always look to understand anothers approach.

Sarabhanga, If you choose to take a stab at this can we just start with these simple points so we do not boil the ocean of knowledge , this will be good.



To know the world you forget the SELF to know the SELF you forget the world...
Sri Nisargadatta's knowledge seems to apply nicely for this conversation

pranams,