The Import of Turiya ...

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Yajvan,

The �great forgetting� occurs in samAdhi.

The turIyAtIta, in samAdhi, knows �I am brahman�.

turIyAtIta = prAj�a = aghora = nandivaktra.

prAj�a (pra-aj�a ~ �deep sleep or complete unconsciousness�) is the turIyAtIta consciousness.

The turIya-atIta has �passed away� into the turIya, as �one who has gone beyond�.

turya = praj�A = sahasrAra = paramashiva = M
turIya = prAj�A = Aj�A = shambhu = AUM
turIyAtIta = prAj�a = vishuddha = sadAshiva = haM
taijasa = aj�a = anAhata = IshAna = yaM
vaishvAnara = Aj�A = maNipUra = rudra = raM

The forgetting is conceived in the taijasa, matured in the turIyAtIta, and realized as wisdom in the turIya. And all sense of dvaita is extinguished when consciousness goes beyond the Aj�A cakra.

Where is the effort in forgetting?

Arjuna has doubtlessly remembered advaita, but necessarily forgotten dvaita and its attendant doubts (e.g. balancing all the conflicting perspectives of �truth�).

�Transcendence� is exactly what I had intended by �comprehension and supersession�.

Learning requires guidelines, but perfect knowledge requires that those lines be erased.

The notion of forgetting (especially in the waking state) is perhaps similar to someone who is brought up discriminating on the basis of skin color suddenly realizing the unity of humanity and the error of past judgments. If you are only avoiding discrimination at a superficial level, then conscious effort may be required; but when there is no longer any division perceived, there is surely no effort at all.

To know dvaita you forget advaita, and to remember advaita you forget dvaita.

[atanu]

sahasrAra is brahma ~ hridaya is brahmayoni. The whole point of this thread.

-----

Namaskar

Yes, Soma -- the Lord of Word, the primordial soul of sacrifice, is Brahman, as defined in Aasiya Bamiya Sukta of Rig Veda. And Soma is the child of parji.

Om

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Madhavan (and Atanu),

I have said nothing here of “churning up the nadis so that the kundalini may go up the sushumna”. And this whole discussion has been an enquiry into the nature of Self, particularly expressed as variations on “knowing” or the various states of Self-Consciousness.

Does sahasrAra cakra necessarily assume the existence of a mortal body? I don’t think any turIyAtIta would agree with this assumption!

And I have not mentioned “effort” (except to question its validity).

The “Heart of the Self” is in the sahasrAra cakra (and vice versa).

sahasrAra = turya = paramashiva = brahma = brahmayoni = [M]
AjñA = turIya = shambhu = brahmA = brahmabIja = AUM

There is only one turya, but it appears as a twin, and the parts may be divided and divided again, ad infinitum.

From this twin, we progressed to the expression of trinity and the “fourth” that lies beyond. But then there is one beyond that (the “fifth”). But the five must involve a “sixth”, and so we progressed to the six cakras, which system has declared the turya as a veritable “seventh heaven” transcending all cakras. And now there is demand for the insertion of yet another “beyond the beyond”.

The transcendent fourth is exactly the same as the transcendent seventh (or eighth, or whatever) simply because of their absolutely transcendent nature.

Every lotus may be regarded as a nectar-filled heart surrounded by a radiant whorl, but I have simply noted the whole cakra.

avidya is removed only in samAdhi, but for so long as the jIva remains attached to a mortal body, mAyA (and thus avidya) yet remains ~ and this is kramamukti (the first stage of mukti).

When this state is maintained until the mortal frame is finally discarded (in mahAsamAdhi) and both avidya and mAyA are entirely removed, then this is sadyomukti.

The uttarAyaNa goes via kramamukti (where the nectar has been tasted) to sadyomukti (where there is only nectar). Where does shrI shaÑkarAcArya say that the uttarAyaNa path does not lead to advaita?

The dakshiNAyaNa (the southern path to yama) follows pitRyajña and pitRyANa and pravRtti mArga in an eternal cycle of consciousness that oscillates between the AjñA of maNipUra and the prAjñA of AjñA.

The uttarAyaNa (the northern path to rudra) follows brahmayajña and brahmAyaNa and nivRtti mArga in a direct ascent of consciousness to the immortal prajñA of sahasrAra.

And one who has truly tasted the nectar of turya will always be turIyAtIta.

How is the consciousness in sahasrAra any different from the consciousness in turya?

kAla brahman is saguNa ~ the anuttara satya of pravRtti and bhakti.
akala brahman is nirguNa ~ the uttama satya of nivRtti and jñAna.

advaita vedAnta takes the ultimate perspective of akala brahman (the caturtha or “turya”).

vaishvAnara = tamas = viSNu-mAyA
taijasa = rajas = shiva-shakti
prAjña = sattva = brahmA-brAhmI
turya = nirguNa = brahma

advaita akala brahman (mahAkAla sadAshiva ajaikapAd rudra) is the one and only true God, who cannot be worshipped as such, being only known in advaita, by the nivRtti-mArga and jñAna-yoga, and by the direct experience of that one perfect Atman as the undivided essence of eternal Being.

nivRtti-mArga (the Path of Inward Movement) denies the absolute necessity of rebirth, proposing the devayAna (Way of the Gods).

nivRtti is the path of jñAna (Knowledge ~ the irrefutable intuition of universal unity), which leads directly to the perfect realization of one’s own true Self, nothing less than becoming one with the Supreme Spirit.

And thus it leads to moksha, the absolute Liberation of the Soul (AtmA or jIiva) from all the limitation and sorrow that it apparently suffers in the plane of phenomenal embodied existence.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

The “great forgetting” occurs in samAdhi.

The turIyAtIta, in samAdhi, knows “I am brahman”.

The notion of forgetting (especially in the waking state) is perhaps similar to someone who is brought up discriminating on the basis of skin color suddenly realizing the unity of humanity and the error of past judgments. If you are only avoiding discrimination at a superficial level, then conscious effort may be required; but when there is no longer any division perceived, there is surely no effort at all.

To know dvaita you forget advaita, and to remember advaita you forget dvaita.

Namaste sarabhanga,

The explanation you mention is congruent with my understanding and experience...
This was my question back a few posts ago i.e. This forgetting - is it that of samadhi? that I probed on. Now I understand your orientation, thank you for taking the time to explain.

Regarding 'forgetting' and 'effort' during waking state - in your example.
This is a good way to look at it. That said if there is effort on any level of advaita it is then contrived.

Many seekers have thought that this fullness one experiences was a mind-set , a mood that is created if you will. This is not the case. How so? The notion of samadhi is to 'practice' the experience of Bhuma again and again and culture the mind in this state of Being. This then spills out into waking state and one begins to experience it in waking , then dream, and in sleep.

Last, I see how one can use the term forget, and I can appreciate the term, yet for me, the notion of remembering who one is, this Brahman, seems to resonate a bit better with me. This does not suggest one notion is better then the other. Same with emptiness of samdahi. Some say perfect emptiness, some say perfect fullness. For me Fullness + remembering = Emptiness + Forgetting.

all is right with the world...

[Znanna]

Fullness + remembering = Emptiness + Forgetting.

Namaste,

I like that linear equation; but I think it also can be perceived as the direction in which the vortex twists.



ZN
/drift

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Atanu (and Madhavan),

Rgveda 1.164 (to the vishvedevA)

1. [vaishvAnara] Of this benevolent one who is the object of our invocation, there is an all-pervading middle brother, and a third brother who is well fed with oblations of ghee. Here I behold the Lord with seven sons.

The Lord with seven sons is Aditya, the seventh son of aditi; and his younger brothers are vAyu and agni. The three brothers are the triguNa expression of parameshvara Aditya. And the seven sons are the seven solar rays.

This parameshvara is brahmA, the seed of aditi (i.e. of brahma).

2. [taijasa] They yoke the seven to the one-wheeled chariot; and the single courser named Seven draws it. Three-naved is the wheel, sound and undecaying, whereon all these worlds of being are resting.

3. [prAjña] The seven who are mounted on the seven-wheeled chariot are the seven horses who draw it onward. Seven sisters ride in it together, in whom the names of the seven rays are treasured.

4. [turya] Who hath beheld him (i.e. brahmA) as he sprang to being, seen how the boneless one (i.e. mAyA or brahmA) supports the bony (i.e. vishva or manifest creation)? Where is the blood of earth, the life, the spirit? Who may approach the man who knows (i.e. nara or brahma) to ask it?

turya = brahma = aditi = parjanya = brahmayoni = dyauSpitR = ajapati
turIya = brahmA = Aditya = soma = brahmabIja = dyAvApRthivI = prajApati

[sarabhanga]

19. [1] Those that come hitherward they call departing, those that depart they call directed hither.
And what so ye have made, Indra and Soma, steeds bear along the worlds yoked as a twain.

20. [2] Two birds with fair wings, knit with bonds of friendship, in the same sheltering tree have found a refuge.
One of the twain eats the sweet fig; the other abstaining, only looks on.

21. [3] Where those fine birds hymn ceaselessly their portion of life eternal, and the sacred synods,
There is the universe’s mighty keeper, who, wise, hath entered into me the simple.

22. [4] The, tree whereon the fine birds eat the sweetness, where they all rest and procreate their offspring;
Upon its top they say the fig is luscious: none gaineth it who knoweth not the Father.

dyauSpitR = nara = hara = rudra = namaHshivAya

13. [4] Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

[sarabhanga]

gaurIrmimAya salilAni takshatyekapadI dvipadI sA catuSpadI |
aSTApadI navapadI babhUvuSI sahasrAksharA parame vyoman || 1.164.41 ||

Forming the waters, the buffalo hath lowed, one-footed or two-footed or four-footed, she, who hath become eight-footed or hath got nine feet, the thousand-syllabled in the highest heaven.

sahasrAksharA (the thousand-syllabled) parame vyoman (in the highest heaven).

The reference is to the sahasrAksharA in the hRdayAkAsha ~ NOT �the hRdaya beyond the sahasrAra�.

[atanu]

Namaste Madhavan (and Atanu)

I have said nothing here of “churning up the nadis so that the kundalini may go up the sushumna”. And this whole discussion has been an enquiry into the nature of Self, particularly expressed as variations on “knowing” or the various states of Self-Consciousness.
Does sahasrAra cakra necessarily assume the existence of a mortal body? I don’t think any turIyAtIta would agree with this assumption!
------
The “Heart of the Self” is in the sahasrAra cakra (and vice versa).
sahasrAra = turya = paramashiva = brahma = brahmayoni = [M]
AjñA = turIya = shambhu = brahmA = brahmabIja = AUM
-------And now there is demand for the insertion of yet another “beyond the beyond”.

Namaste Sarabhanga Ji,

There is no demand for 'beyond' the beyond. Beyond is one. There are pancha Brahmans, each representing the highest commonality beneath some diversity. For example, commonality beneath all diverse speech is the mind – Soma. Behind the mind is the one aham “I”. Beneath the aham “I”, is parabrahman – the Self.

You say that Sahararara need not be known in reference to the body. In that case, I concur with you and all argument stops.

But the fact remains that traditionally sahasrarara is known in reference to other chakras imagined as located in the body, and as made of petals etc.. And although, saharshaakshara is infinite wherein the Lord of the Word, Soma is resident in the wooly highest central point. Param Vyoman. But Soma is also not the goal. Soma has a further reference to Parjanya.

RV 1.164.35 This altar is the uttermost end of the earth; this sacrifice is the navel of the world; this Soma is the fecundating power of the rain-shedding steed; this Brahman is the supreme heaven of (holy) speech.

RV 1.164.41 The sound (of the clouds) has been uttered, fabricating the waters, and being one-footed, two-footed, four-footed, eight-footed, nine-footed, or infinite in the supreme heaven.

RV 9.12 - soma pavamana
4 Far-sighted Soma, Sage and Seer, is worshipped in the central point of heaven, the straining-cloth of wool.

RV 1 HYMN XLIII. Rudra.
7 O Soma set thou upon us the glory of a hundred men, The great renown of mighty chiefs.
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9 Soma! head, central point, love these; Soma! Know these as serving thee, Children of thee Immortal, at the highest place of holy law.

Soma is auspicious energy, primordial sacrifice, born of Parjanya.


Book 9 HYMN LXXXII. Soma Pavamana.
3 Parjanya is the Father of the Mighty Bird: on mountains, in earth's centre hath he made his home. The waters too have flowed, the Sisters, to the kine: he meets the pressing-stones at the beloved rite.

4Thou givest pleasure as a wife delights her lord. Listen, O Child of Pajri, for to thee I speak. Amid the holy songs go on that we may live: in time of trouble, Soma, watch thou free from blame.

Scriptures definitely recommend traveling through the path of the Sun (Rudra Hridaya) rather than through the path of the Moon (Soma).


And the following are the teachings of my Guru:

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Mr. T. K. S. Iyer, a devotee, was speaking of the chakras Sri Bhagavan said: Atman (the Self) alone is to be realised. Its realisation holds all else in its compass. Sakti, Ganapati; siddhis, etc., are included in it. Those who speak of these have not realised the Atman. Atman is in the heart and is the Heart itself. The manifestation is in the brain. The passage from the heart to the brain might be considered to be through sushumna or a nerve with any other name. The Upanishads say pare leena - meaning that sushumna or such nadis are all comprised in para, i.e., the atma nadi. The yogis say that the current rising up to sahasrara (brain) ends there. That experience is not complete. For jnana, they must come to the Heart. Hridaya (Heart) is the alpha and omega.
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D.: What is the Sun marga? What is the Moon marga? Which of them is easier?

M.: Ravi marga (Sun marga) is jnana. Moon marga is Yoga. They think that after purifying the 72,000 nadis in the body, sushumna is entered and the mind passes up to the sahasrara and there is nectar trickling. These are all mental concepts. The man is already overwhelmed by world concepts. Other concepts are now added in the shape of this Yoga. The object of all these is to rid the man of concepts and to make him inhere as the pure Self - i.e., absolute consciousness, bereft of thoughts! Why not go straight to it? Why add new encumbrances to the already existing ones?
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Henceforth, I am not going to argue on this point, assuming that Sarabhanga ji is not referring to the sahasrara, which is located at the crown but of saharsarara, which is Hridaya and which has no inside and no outside. Here I emphasize, for the last time, that all words that have been used to understand various levels of Pragnya are mere words, which have their origin in mind, which has origin in ego called “I”, which has its origin in the Self. Self is closest to one. Words are somewhat distant.


Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Self is closest to one. Words are later and somewhat distant and complicated to say the least (especially as below).

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sahasrAra = turya = paramashiva = brahma = brahmayoni = [M]
------------------------

turya = prajñA = sahasrAra = paramashiva = M
turIya = prAjñA = AjñA = shambhu = AUM
turIyAtIta = prAjña = vishuddha = sadAshiva = haM
taijasa = ajña = anAhata = IshAna = yaM
vaishvAnara = AjñA = maNipUra = rudra = raM
--------------------------

turya = prajñA = Ishana = sadAshiva.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now sadAshiva = Turya or turIyAtIta or turIya or prAjña or prajñA ?

Ultimately it is simple to understand that sadAshiva is paramashiva, but why touch the ear from behind? To me, Pragnya is One and without hierarchy, it is the first station of shivoadvaitaatma. It is Sarvasyayonim -- the progenitor of all and Sarvesvara -- Ishwara of all.

Ishwara of the highest Self must be His own Pragnya.

Om Namah Shivaya