The Import of Turiya ...

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste vispulinga, ( spark)
This post is a continuation in general of http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1773 with multiple points of view and great analogies by Saidevo;

This post will specifically pick up the conversation from this post of http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=14570#post14570


A key contribution to the development of this topic is Atanu with his posts http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=14532&postcount=1 [ this is a great reference and insight]

The above references are offered to connect the dots and insure if someone wants to figure out how we got to this point , the knowledge is offered in the HDF postings shown.

Based upon HDF and all of our postings, it is clear that many desire a closer relationship with HIM/HER. This can be accomplished using all different methods, ( bhakti, kriya, prayer, meditation, yama, niyama, etc.). I have been taught all roads lead to turiya as the platform that brings one closer to the desired relationship with the Divine

Please feel free to probe and ask questions. I am not the final authority on this, but am willing to share the knowledge and teachings I have been blessed with over the years.


IMHO and in my experience, becoming intimate with this knowledge advances ones progress on the path - The upanishad say knowledge is the greatest purifer; Hence for sadaka's the discussion and removal of doubts, and no less the probing is a boon to comprehension understanding. May all these posts offered by many on HDF move us to the light. You are highly qualified to talk & discuss this, because at your core, our most simplest level, this Turiya is you.

This Turiya
This 4th, this delicate, yet omnipresent turiya is of great importance. How so? It is the bridge to the Divine.
Let me see if I can represent it here - again this is to assist...there are always other ways to show this, but there is a lot said for being simple, yes?

Mundane Consciousness ---T---Divine Consciousness

Turiya, the 4th is the bridge as it remains, unchanged , infinite, without a second, immutable, and verily indescribable. See this post on the Mundaka Upanisad , here on HDF: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=14539&postcount=8


So What do I mean by this Mundane and Divine consciousness turiya as the bridge? Lets look:

Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana

Turiya

Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana

Each state of consciousness has a corresponding mind-body experience, and a world-surroundings experience ( perception). Lets start here:

Waking or jagrat chetana
All of us should be in waking state now - Yes? As we read this, the mind is active, the body is also active. We are aware of our surroundings. If a noise is heard our attention goes there. If we smell something the senses are active, ;we smell them and our attention goes there. Our senses are engaged with the environment. The mind goes to other places as the senses may direct it. If this post becomes boring, ones attention is then directed to another place that may give it more. ( This 'more' experience is wired in our circuitry, the village of the senses).
Duality exists - that is, there is me, and then the objects I perceive - cars, people, family, job, actions, all are outside of me.

Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreaming , we have the mind active and the body resting. Some say they do not dream, this can be left for another time. In dream the mind can experience flying, smelling, taste, and a whole range of experiences, yet the body does not. It is thought that this activity is part of The stress release process for the individual. The surroundings in this state of consciousness is of the minds choice. Some in color, some black&white surroundings. This dream state is a bit less restrictive then waking.
Duality exists- I am active in mind, and other 'things' and experiences are in motion, distinct from me.

Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana
Deep sleep. The mind is withdrawn, the body inactive, the senses are inactive, to feed the mind, so mind is not present.
No Duality - There is no experience, no Duality - which is a definition of enlightenment, yet one is not aware of this, so the condition of enlightenment as a possible state is disqualified.

Turiya
Some call this pure consciousness. The 'raw materials' for Being. For "Being" please finish the sentence yajvan! . It is 'Being' or existence. It is awareness itself. Aware of what ? just awareness. Our previously posted example: You go to the movies and what all the action on the screen. The movie ends, they turn on the house lights, and you see the white screen on where the movie was being played. Like that , this turiya provides the canvas for all other levels of consciousness to take place. This screen is White, so all things can be reflected. Turiya contains all possibilities yet is indescribable itself. The metaphor breaks down here. Unlike the movie screen, turiya has no boundaries or edges like the screen. The rishi's say it is Unbounded.

The mind is still, but alert, resting in SELF; the body is rested, balanced. This is unlike the other 3 states of waking dreaming and sleeping. This state of awareness/consciousness is experienced by transcending. Going to finer levels of Consciousness, until the activity of the mind is still, and pure consciousness is experienced/enjoyed. It's like a pot of water on the stove. We have flames (activity) , and the water ( consciousness) boils and bubbles. When we remove the heat the water (consciousness) settles down, and becomes calm, without ripples, bubbles. This is where this metaphor breaks down. When one transcends and experiences this pure awareness, it is boundless there is no constraints of the pot. This is groomed and cultured over time. It is the experience of meditating daily that cultures the village of the senses to allow this state or condition to exist even in activity.

Lets stop there - no one likes long posts. Then we will take a look at the following:

• Turiya as the foundation (continued)
• Cosmic Consciousness - turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya consciousness)

• God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
• Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
• Whats different about these chetana levels of Being?
• How does one benefit - why even pursue?

" O Svetaketu, do you understand what I am telling you? This great but most essence of all the worlds is the Truth, the Atman, the Supreme Reality within you, and you are THAT" - sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad

[Znanna]

How does one benefit - why even pursue?

How about because it feels really really good?



ZN
/smiling

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

How about because it feels really really good?

ZN
/smiling

Hello and Namaste ZN
... a reasonable assessment.
When one chooses to pursue the 4th , 4 areas of life improve:

• Ones spiritual advancement - clarity of purpose and harmony with oneself improves.
• Mental health - balanced mind; negative thoughts decline; stress and strain are reduced; over time, this becomes perfectly balanced mind, no negative thoughts, no additional vasana's are produced i.e. one uses more of their full potential over time AND the full potential of Intellignece of nature ( this I hope we can talk more about) - its organzing power. Intuition improves also.
• Physical health - due to mental health - the mind-body coordination improves
• Social health - a happier and balanced individual interacts better within the family, neighborhood and society (work, school, etc).

One becomes, more and more, the exponent of reality over time... how could this not be joyous as you have stated.

thank you for your comments.
pranams,

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Continuing the conversation... in the first post we offered a foundation for this knowledge; we are now looking at more evolved states of consciousness. That is, some may call this conversation a discussion about axenic (or free from contamination) levels of Being.

A note - this post is a bit longer then the last. It may take a few reads to digest. Please poke/probe and ask questions.

1st post subject matter
Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana

Turiya

This post
Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana


Once this state, turiya, can be sustained in activity without it being overshadowed by actions, expreriences, stress, strain, then it is considered stable, and Cosmic (without bounds) consciousness is established.

Once this turiya is a perpetual experience one rests in the SELF, in Brahman. Before this, one is blessed with glimpses of this...that can come purposefully during meditation or techniques one practices (siddhi's, bhakti, kriya, etc.) or one can fall into this experience naturally, yet with no means of recreating it again; happenstance or chance.

Cosmic Consciousness - turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya)
In this state, one is associated with the SELF. Some call this Self referral. One is grounded in this silence, completely separate from activity. This Self referral there 7x24x365 days. It is Turiya that is established and experienced in ones consciousness , whether in waking, dream or sleep states. When Sri Krsna tells Arjuna be without the 3 gunas (BG 2.45, 2.50, 17, 3.19) established in the SELF (atman), He speaks of the Cosmic Consciousness, turiyatit established.

• When we talk of being non-attached to action, not concerned about the fruits of action, this is the stake of consciousness the rishi's and sages and masters are discussing. Not mood making or 'trying' to act like this BEFORE the state of consciousness exists. Its as if one is asking you to be a king, and you have no kingdom! Once this state of consciousness is established, then the SELF is established, one is of resolute intellect we associate ourselves with the SELF ( SELF referral).
• Much can be said about this state. How one performs action, what becomes of the 3 gunas, etc . We will take this up if there is interest from the readers. Yet In this state, restful alertness, some call this dynamic restfulness (a new functioning of the nervous system) is established and remains so. This is the baseline for further unfoldment to bhagavat chetana. That is, this level of consciousness changes the individual in mind and body.

God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
In this state of consciousness, and developing this state of consciousness, one's perception improves. One is able to perceive the finest levels of creation. The senses are refined, not blocked from stresses and strains. One is able to view and appreciate HIS/HER creation, the finest details, and the expression of Consciousness that manifests. This perception brings the highest level of appreceation to ones heart as it swells with love of the Supreme, of the Divine. What is developed is the nervious system of perception and the heart ( emotions)

• Its my opinion that Love defined, is the highest level of appreciation one can have. It is from this love that devotion to the Supreme gets established. This is bhakti. It is based upon the ability for one's consciousness to be pure, established in the SELF, one pointed, without knots.
• As my teacher has said, this level of consciousness is based upon the silence that is realized and stabilized in turiyatit chetana.
• A few ideas then:
  In Transcendental consciousness the silence that is experienced, is total silence, without activity, absorbed in the SELF, nothing else exists, as one transcends the nervous system can only entertain this level awareness while still, quiet. Then in Cosmic Consciousness one is established in the silence of the SELF, yet external to him/her there is activity ( work, actions, life buzzing around). There is me/Self and not-Self that can now be experienced. One can be in activity (walking/acting) yet the Silence of SELF never leaves.
• In God Consciousness, there is this silence of SELF AND activity into the one-ness of HIM. It’s a highly evolved state of silence with activity, simultaneously. You ask how can this be. Yes! This is Divine. This is the individual +SELF+God+activity , combined or attuned together. There is no thing that is not seen as an expression of His grace. It is this Omni-presence of silence that encompasses everything. Like akasha (space) it surrounds and is in everything - there is no-thing that it is not. Think on how highly evolved our nervous system is that allows this to happen.

Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
This most evolved state is Supreme. All the mahavakya's ( great, full, robust sayings) point to this state of being. We hear many on this HDF praise these sayings and repeat and remind us of this level of Being. This is the practical side , the defined, experintial side.

• As I understand it, when one has this experience, it requires the master to assist and help - Tat tvam asi, That thou art. You no longer are in relationship to this creation, you ARE this creation, this Brahman.
• There is no duality, there is no other. Quite a profound state to experience. All things are an extension of you. There are no-things , as all is you . You are at home no matter where you are at, because it is you.
• 'This' is one homogeneous/ubiquitous expression of consciousness and you are that. There is nothing to be done, because all has been accomplished already. There is no past, present or future, as Brahman (aham brahmasmi) , one is amala ( a or 'not' + mala blemish or 'impurity') without any blemish.
• Ones actions are universal and the actions of the Universe here on earth. One is full of and possessed of Dharma-megha , or cloud pouring virtue.
• What ever is willed (satya-samkalpah) bears fruit as the total universe is the support structure for this to occur. Yet what is there to be done? Only His Divine work.

What can be an example of this? Consider yourself a container, with a lid on it. You have a specific boundary of height and width, a volume. You are this akasha within this Boundary. This container then is broken and removed. You realize there is no difference from the space that was outside the container ( that held the container) to the Space within the container… you. There is no boundary of you, there is no difference of space (akasha) and you. IT is one contiguous fullness (Bhuma) of existence.

This is the wisdom of the Tradition, it is not my possession... I am in hopes it adds , compliments or advances ones understanding of this great knowledge.

" O Svetaketu, do you understand what I am telling you? This great but most essence of all the worlds is the Truth, the Atman, the Supreme Reality within you, and you are THAT" - sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Yajvan

Thank you.Very well putted! You are indeed a source of great knowledge and Help!

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Continuing the conversation... in the first post we offered a foundation for this knowledge; we are now looking at more evolved states of consciousness. That is, some may call this conversation a discussion about axenic (or free from contamination) levels of Being.

A note - this post is a bit longer then the last. It may take a few reads to digest. Please poke/probe and ask questions.

1st post subject matter
Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana

Turiya

This post
Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
-----

" O Svetaketu, do you understand what I am telling you? This great but most essence of all the worlds is the Truth, the Atman, the Supreme Reality within you, and you are THAT" - sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

We have discussed this before also. Since this has come up again, so I am repeating my understanding based on Mandukya Upanishad that is entirely different. No doubt, many scriptural texts describe seven states of Consciousness but they all are within Consciousness -- below Pragnya, who is Sarvesvara.

Knowing Pragnya, who is Sarvesvara, Bhagavan, and Brahman, is itself Bhagavat Chetana. Turiya is neither consciousness nor nonconsciousness but is the seed of consciousness, so how can it be within a classification of states of Chetana -- which are mental states?

Turiyatita is a state of a sadhaka who is fully established in Turiya. But itself Turiya (the being) is changeless, timeless, Self. It has no other. There is no question of chetana of a second here, since it is defined as changeless and Advaita.

Moreover, the shruti "-- this Self is Brahman" very clearly states that the Self that is Turiya is Brahman. In fact, Turiya in Pragnya pada proclaims "I am Brahman". That's why it is said "Pragnya is Brahman". Self (Turiya) is the seed of Brahman.


I write this to emphasise again that the seven states of consciousness are from the view of sadhaka and cannot be an elucidation of Turiya, which is ONE, CHANGELESS, past, present, future and beyond time and seed of Brahman.


Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan Ji,

We have discussed this before also. Since this has come up again, so I am repeating my understanding based on Mandukya Upanishad that is entirely different. No doubt, many scriptural texts describe seven states of Consciousness but they all are within Consciousness -- below Pragnya, who is Sarvesvara.

Knowing Pragnya, who is Sarvesvara, Bhagavan, and Brahman, is itself Bhagavat Chetana. Turiya is neither consciousness nor nonconsciousness but is the seed of consciousness, so how can it be within a classification of states of Chetana -- which are mental states?

Turiyatita is a state of a sadhaka who is fully established in Turiya. But itself Turiya (the being) is changeless, timeless, Self. It has no other. There is no question of chetana of a second here, since it is defined as changeless and Advaita.

Moreover, the shruti "-- this Self is Brahman" very clearly states that the Self that is Turiya is Brahman. In fact, Turiya in Pragnya pada proclaims "I am Brahman". That's why it is said "Pragnya is Brahman". Self (Turiya) is the seed of Brahman.


I write this to emphasise again that the seven states of consciousness are from the view of sadhaka and cannot be an elucidation of Turiya, which is ONE, CHANGELESS, past, present, future and beyond time and seed of Brahman. Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste atanu,

Yes, I concur turiya is changeless of this there is no doubt and I think the post ( yours also) reinforces this notion. With that, when the sadhaka is established in turiya s/he too is now that. What remains is lesh-avidya.

These seven states is a framework for ones discussions and for the sadhaka, we are in agreement. Otherwise the statement of turiya is grand, true, and inviting, yet without a road map ( as I see it).

Turiya = Brahman = Self, yet there are different experiences and the evolution of the senses is a key part. This is what I am pointing out.
By His grace , one does not go from ignorance to Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana in one swoop.
This is where I belive symantics gets in the way. Absolutely turiya= Brahman. Yet there is some additional development
to bring this fully in the village of th senses ( the total nervious system).

There is substantial contrast to begin with initially and turiya must first be established... this may be where you see something a bit differently then me perhaps. This maybe where we need to talk more; yet I think we may lose some of our HDF readers along the way and we're back to being too too esoteric ( which is fine for me but perhaps limits total HDF participation?)

The notions given in the post is not to limit or restrict but to help one discern. I was quite cautious to not suggest turiya as the 4th state of consciousness, but to suggest there is a level of consciousness that allows the 4th to be part of ones daily life. If there is no reference point within the individual, then where does one look? If one looks outside of ones self, then we're back to the 3 gunas and the senses being dragged about.
[ And I know you are not suggesting this, I point it out to compare and contrast the notion. And if this post was atanu-centric it would have a different look and feel, due to your reading and background ]

If you can offer a better solution to this conundrum - I am happy to consider it. This is why I have been trying to throttle the conversation. We know that in the final analysis all this is indeed Brahman, yet what of the new comer that scratches his/her head and says, what do I do with this information? Yes the wonderful; Upanishads say I am indeed this Brahman, now what?

If too much information and permutations are offered then it is like drinking out of a fire hose.

One method of teaching and discussion is based upon a vision of possibilities, followed by some framework or rigor that gets one grounded in the knowledge. I looked at it from this point and of the sisya's that were taught in the manner with my teacher and it seemed to worked well... Then the info that you describe and that of the Upanishads, and other agamas can be entertained and discussed with confidence as the principles are established. I am open to other methods, Yet this has served me well for some time.

thank you again, and please lets continue.

pranams.

[Znanna]

what do I do with this information? Yes the wonderful; Upanishads say I am indeed this Brahman, now what?

Yes, this niggling question persists. The only way I know to get a resolution is to earnestly pray, and accept the revelation.


ZN

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~

Yes, this niggling question persists. The only way I know to get a resolution is to earnestly pray, and accept the revelation.
ZN

Namaste ZN (et.al)...

the wise say if you don't know where your going then any road will take you there. [ ZN this is not 'you' in this sentence it is 'we' and 'us' on a general scale].

Hence if we discuss overall the states of being ,of development, then one can look on the map and say ' Oh yes! I see I am here and I understand which way is north and south'. Or one can say time out I am not on the map AND I did not even know there was a map!
Like that , this is what I humbly believe the value of HDF is and is consistently improving over time. This is where I think HDF members can make a difference: Define the map and direction and help others move in the direction they are compelled to explore.

If we care to just come and discuss ideas, then go back to our routines, this is well and good, many will benefit. We can also come and discuss this matter of ones development, which leads to OUR development. No one is independent on this earth , that is the joke on us and the illusion many have bought into. Hence I am completely at a loss on how to improve this earth if not done one human at a time. This I think is a reasonable contribution to the family of man in Kali Yuga.

So, what to do with this information? If I know where I am approximately at on the map I can then choose venues to get me to where I want to go, really, what I want to become.

Then our discussions can be - how to get to the next stage? how does one meditate if they wish to pursue this, or the need of a guru, spiritual advisor, or the guru-within. All possibilities.

The Veda's are so fast, so deep. How to boil it down ? And then people offer this knowledge to others; It has to be a collective effort until one reaches this Brahmavit (enlightened) level of Being.

The boiling down of the vedas = the BHagavad Gita, all one needs to know in 700 ( some argue 701) verses. Yet the vedas are so fast , so robust, people come from different vantage points. That is, one may say Krsna is not my path, Okay fine, and not to worry because as far as I can tell all roads for spiritual development lead to turiya-Self-Brahman.

Getting comfortable with these notions and not just the verbiage and snippets of knowledge is a development process. The Upanishads say knowledge is the greatest purifier. This is true and this has been experienced, and I am a better person for it. Yet - I am just one more bozo on the bus. Yet I am blessed. I am clear on which direction that bus is heading, why it is going in the direction, and doing all I can to help the driver steer. I am not unconscious about my development and do not leave it to the wind. This do not infer that others are, in any way, shape or form. If we can help, then we are doing dharma, upholding society, by upholding our citizens.

To perhaps answer the implied question which you brought " this niggling question persists." - the answer is to stablize turiya so it resides there all the time in wake dream and sleep. At least one then knows the goal at hand - I Need to do ....
How ? - with the proper technique or the guru. Is one needed? Can one get started w/o a instructor and get warmed up? Is one even needed? Or, I have a guru - is s/he gving you guidence to turiya? if yes all well and good. If not, ?

you also mention: The only way I know to get a resolution is to earnestly pray, and accept the revelation. This sounds like a perfect fit for you at this juncture and as you have mentioned before, you are fortunate to have help from others that are present to assist you.

Yet the nagging question - no revelations are coming for Tommy, and Bobby, and Amit, Prasada, and Suti, Now what? If the mountain does not come to Mohammad, Mohammad must go to the mountain. We have the map!

pranams,

[Znanna]

Namaste, yajvan,

I'm sort of simple in the way I interact - there have been times where I've said to myself, what do I do with this information? So, I pray, I get instruction, I do that and everything's cool. It works for me

I still wonder sometimes where the instruction comes from, but, it works so I really don't care most of the time. The rest of the time, well, I just keep a poker face. I've no doubt there's intelligences out there which are greater than mine, and discreet, too. If I didn't hold that opinion, I'd consider myself much crazier than I already do.


Love,
ZN