The Import of Turiya ...

[mirabai]

Namaste, yajvan,

I'm sort of simple in the way I interact - there have been times where I've said to myself, what do I do with this information? So, I pray, I get instruction, I do that and everything's cool. It works for me

I still wonder sometimes where the instruction comes from, but, it works so I really don't care most of the time. The rest of the time, well, I just keep a poker face. I've no doubt there's intelligences out there which are greater than mine, and discreet, too. If I didn't hold that opinion, I'd consider myself much crazier than I already do.


Love,
ZN

Namaste ZN,

I think what works, as you said, is the best path to walk.
Comment from a loved one just yesterday, made this crystal clear for me; When we develop and become our own true nature, THAT is the path. THAT leads to realization. THAT is our dharma.

Mira

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste ZN,

I think what works, as you said, is the best path to walk.
Comment from a loved one just yesterday, made this crystal clear for me; When we develop and become our own true nature, THAT is the path. THAT leads to realization. THAT is our dharma. Mira

Namaste Mira,
wise words... for all the posts we have here this is at the core. How to make this a 'process' and not a random act. i.e. finding our true nature, turiya. That is, the development - the how to. This has been the subject matter of this post and the other post - "Consciousnesss Care to Discuss".

As aksara is seperate from the relative field of life - IT is quite happy in Itself - it has no motivation to come get us! We need to go find it. To this , the stimulation of conversation - akshara's definition, etc. assists the seeker.

May we all be blessed with finding this turiya, this Being.

pranams,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste atanu,

Yes, I concur turiya is changeless of this there is no doubt and I think the post ( yours also) reinforces this notion. With that, when the sadhaka is established in turiya s/he too is now that. What remains is lesh-avidya.

These seven states is a framework for ones discussions and for the sadhaka, we are in agreement. Otherwise the statement of turiya is grand, true, and inviting, yet without a road map ( as I see it).

Turiya = Brahman = Self, yet there are different experiences and the evolution of the senses is a key part. ----.

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

The experiences and their evolution is of senses and the mind. I am not denying that.

But to avoid the mis-conception that one who is established in Turiya (and thus has become Turiya) has further to go, I re-emphasised that Turiya is ONE and it has to be known as ONE. There is no other way.

Moreover, many say that we already know waking, dreaming, and deep sleep states. Its not correct. To know Jagrat is to know ONE Agnivaisvanaro. To know dreaming is to Know ONE Taijjassa. And to know deep sleep is know ONE Sarvesvara. Knowing these three states only one is established as one consciousness. Then alone one has attained the qualification for Samadhi/Turiya.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste atanu,

------
These seven states is a framework for ones discussions and for the sadhaka, we are in agreement. Otherwise the statement of turiya is grand, true, and inviting, yet without a road map ( as I see it).

Turiya = Brahman = Self, -----
-----
pranams.

Namaste,

Well, I don't see it that way, since scriptures related to OM are the roadmaps. AUM is itself the road map. The knowledge of three steps is the road map. The knowledge of seven states of consciousness can help one who has not been graced with the import of OM.


I repeat that Turiya is not a state of Chetana.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste atanu,

--------- but to suggest there is a level of consciousness that allows the 4th to be part of ones daily life.

That is a mental level of knowing that beneath all these is ONE Self. That is not the settled experience, which cannot come without praying/meditating/prostrating at the feet of Sarvesvara.

----This is why I have been trying to throttle the conversation. We know that in the final analysis all this is indeed Brahman, yet what of the new comer that scratches his/her head and says, what do I do with this information? Yes the wonderful; Upanishads say I am indeed this Brahman, now what?

----pranams.

Again knowing I am Brahman is not the knowledge.

Brihad. Upanishad says: Knowing this one should meditate. But even this theoretical knowing does not get statbilsed, till one reaces the Feet of Sarvesvara and experiences for certain that all this is Conciousness alone, who is Sarvesvara.

Svet. Upanishad

Chapter One

11
When the Lord is known all fetters fall off; with the cessation of miseries, birth and death come to an end. From meditation on Him there arises, after the dissolution of the body, the third state, that of universal lordship. And lastly, the aspirant, transcending that state also, abides in the complete Bliss of Brahman.
12
The enjoyer (jiva), the objects of enjoyment and the Ruler (Isvara)—the triad described by the knowers of Brahman—all this is nothing but Brahman. This Brahman alone, which abides eternally within the self, should be known. Beyond It, truly, there is nothing else to be known.
13
The visible form of fire, while it lies latent in its source, the fire—wood, is not perceived; yet there is no destruction of its subtle form. That very fire can be brought out again by means of persistent rubbing of the wood, its source. In like manner, Atman, which exists in two states, like fire, can be grasped in this very body by means of Om.
14
By making the body the lower piece of wood and Om the upper piece and through the practice of the friction of meditation, one perceives the luminous Self, hidden like the fire in the wood.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Well, I don't see it that way, since scriptures related to OM are the roadmaps. AUM is itself the road map. The knowledge of three steps is the road map. The knowledge of seven states of consciousness can help one who has not been graced with the import of OM.

I repeat that Turiya is not a state of Chetana.

Regards, Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste Atanu,

I have read your posts... I see your view point and we differ. Yet where do we agree? Turiya. That is my point on this matter. If you see that I am saying something different please advise accordingly.

• I have no desire to confine turiya to consciousness or to any one thing. Yet how does one experince this turiya ? Via consciousness.
  As turiya incompasses consciousness, but is not limited to it. Consciousness is key here, not a constraint to turiya.
• Regarding Om. We again have differing opinions on the word roadmap - that is what is getting in the way I believe. For me the roadmap, a construct, (7 states of consciousness) does not = vehicle to get there. For me and my learning, the vehicle is OM.
• Why do I look at this in this manner? Mundukaopanishad 2.2.4 - Pranava (Om) is the bow, the Atma is the arrow and Brahman is called its aim. It is to be hit by a man who is self-collected and then as the arrow becomes one with the target, he will become one with Brahman.
• From another POV “I will tell you briefly of that Goal which all the Vedas with one voice propound, which all the austerities speak of, and wishing for Which people practice discipline: It is Om.” (Katha Upanishad 1.2.15)

If you differ on this matter I respect your orientation. Yet I do not see that we are far off. That said, my only desire is to state my views and that of what I have learned, my teachings, and what I practice daily, etc. I am not in pursuit of converting your thoughts on this. Yet differences are healthy as long as the foundation is strong .

Yudhishthira-ji suggests the following from the Yaksha Prasna – Mahabharata, Vana Parva
"There is not even one Rishi whose opinion can be accepted by all; the truth about religion and duty is hid in caves: therefore, that alone is the path along which the great have trod. This world full of ignorance is like a pan. The sun is fire the days and nights are fuel. The months and the seasons constitute the wooden ladle. Time is the cook that is cooking all creatures in that pan (with such aids); this is the news."

pranams,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Atanu,

-----I have no desire to confine turiya to consciousness or to any one thing. Yet how does one experince this turiya ? Via consciousness.
As turiya incompasses consciousness, but is not limited to it. Consciousness is key here, not a constraint to turiya.

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

Turiya is ungraspable and indescribable, that which has the consciousness. It is the essence of consciousness. Are we confusing the subject and object.


The above is still OK. My main problem of understanding happened with quote below:

So What do I mean by this Mundane and Divine consciousness turiya as the bridge? Lets look:

Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana

Turiya

Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana

Each state of consciousness has a corresponding mind-body experience, and a world-surroundings experience ( perception). Lets start here:

Pragnya Sarvesvara is the bridge to Turiya, which is bridge to nowhere, since it is ONE and ALL. It is not any self, but it is this Self, which is Brahman.

Instead of me, let Mandukya's verses do the work:

VII
Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual. This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realized.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And below is what Gaudapada says.

10
Turiya, the changeless Ruler, is capable of destroying all miseries. All other entities being unreal, the non—dual Turiya alone is known as effulgent and all—pervading.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, it is very difficult for me to adjust and accept your statement "So What do I mean by this Mundane and Divine consciousness turiya as the bridge?"


Since, the fourth is not the bridge per se and not consciousness per se, but it the real being -- the goal and it is the bridge as well. However, differences do not matter, since the goal is same (as you have already said).


Regards,

Om Namah Shivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

but it the real being...


Om Namah Shivaya

Namaste atanu,
Again I look for places were we agree , as it bears more fruit I believe. And a perfect agreement point is Being. I must agree 10,000% on Being. My teacher has called it such for years, Being.

And - the next part and I think ZN has asked this, how does one experience this? The following is from the Kathopanishad parva 2 valli 3 sutra 10, and fits nicely into the discussion on mind ( in our other posts):

When the five organs of knowledge (pancha jnanani) are at rest together with the mind, and when the intellect ceases to function ( become calm) that they call the highest state.

The next sutra (10) continues: The fixity of the senses (sthirm indriya dharanam), they regard as yoga. At that time one gets careful for yoga is acquired and lost.

This could have just as easily come from the yoga darsana of Patanjali-muni.

We need to go back a few sections to insure we can discuss the 'how to' to round out this converdsation: parva 1 valli 3 sutra 3:

Know the Atman as the Lord of the chariot, the body as the chariot; know the intellect as the charioteer and the mind as the reins.

Now , if you care to , and may I ask your help - lets discuss these 3 sutras. It suggests and guides the native on what is expected to experience Being within ones self.

• One needs to bring the indryias or senses to rest - that is, balance or sama;
• The mind must also be at rest as it is the reins. To what? to the horses, that are the senses.
• What next? - and I think this is brilliant - one needs to also bring the intellect (viveka is driven by intellect) to calmness , without fluctuations; that is, the intellect is constantly evaluating what is going on; Is this Being? Is this? Have I arrived? What's that? What was that tought on? This constant evaluation of the mind's condition halts it from experiencing this Being, this Atman, this perfect calmness.
• Next is key to the sadhu: the word control has been used for years on this matter , to control the mind. This IMHO is the root cause for ones inability to experience Being. How so? Control = Management. Management = attention and herding, in ones mind. This keeps the intellect engaged. If the Intellect remains engaged then it does not calm down and one cannot experience Being....it is that simple. We do not fulfil the vidya of these sutras by control.

Let me leave it here and see what you and others may which to add, suggest, or kick around. We then can go to, well what do you do then if one does not control the mind? This is the diamond in the rocks conversation that needs to be had.

pranams,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~~


Namaste atanu,
Again I look for places were we agree , as it bears more fruit I believe. And a perfect agreement point is Being. I must agree 10,000% on Being. My teacher has called it such for years, Being.

-----Know the Atman as the Lord of the chariot, the body as the chariot; know the intellect as the charioteer and the mind as the reins.

Now , if you care to , and may I ask your help - lets discuss these 3 sutras. It suggests and guides the native on what is expected to experience Being within ones self.

• One needs to bring the indryias or senses to rest - that is, balance or sama;
• The mind must also be at rest as it is the reins. To what? to the horses, that are the senses.
• What next? - and I think this is brilliant - one needs to also bring the intellect (viveka is driven by intellect) to calmness , without fluctuations; that is, the intellect is constantly evaluating what is going on; Is this Being? Is this? Have I arrived? What's that? What was that tought on? This constant evaluation of the mind's condition halts it from experiencing this Being, this Atman, this perfect calmness.
• Next is key to the sadhu: the word control has been used for years on this matter , to control the mind. This IMHO is the root cause for ones inability to experience Being. How so? Control = Management. Management = attention and herding, in ones mind. This keeps the intellect engaged. If the Intellect remains engaged then it does not calm down and one cannot experience Being....it is that simple. We do not fulfil the vidya of these sutras by control.

------
pranams,

Pranam Yajvan Ji,

Yes. In one word it is called 'Mauna'. Absolute silence of the mind with awareness intact. Momentary attainments indicate that it is cool, cool, light, light, and fresh, fresh.

But then, this initial practice and the world's requirements are not matching. So, there is tension, tension, turmoil, turmoil, heat, heat.


God must balance it now (It appears that writing and arguing about consciousness will not help).


Regards,

OM

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam Yajvan Ji,

Yes. In one word it is called 'Mauna'. Absolute silence of the mind with awareness intact. Momentary attainments indicate that it is cool, cool, light, light, and fresh, fresh.

But then, this initial practice and the world's requirements are not matching. So, there is tension, tension, turmoil, turmoil, heat, heat.


God must balance it now (It appears that writing and arguing about consciousness will not help). Regards, OM

Namste Atanu,
thanks for the post... I think this, for me, closes the subject on a positive note. I have not seen others engage, yet the overall postings lay a nice foundation to understand this matter. I am hoping it is not so esoteric that one still scratches their head wondering...It is not the words that bring mauna, but practice.


Many are inspired to take resolve to accomplish self-development, this may last for 3 minutes or 3 hours, some for 3 days. Less stay with the intent for 3 months or 3 seasons. Even less for 30 months. The ones that are successful keep their resolve for 30 seasons and 30 years; it is this focus that bears fruit for the seeker.


pranams