Member
I repeat the purport of Shri Shankara
Those who have realised Brahman, the Highest Reality, merge the self in Turiya because they have transcended the notion of cause and effect, which inheres in the third quarter of Atman. They are not born again; for they have realised their identity with the causeless Turiya. ----.
Note: Is it possible to reach here without Bhagawat chetana?
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste atanu,Originally Posted by atanu
I am impressed with your focus... I will leave a few days to read all your posts over as you have been quite productive these last hours and this is good.
If perhaps you have the time and interest the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Jyotir Brahmana does a fine job of outlining turiya. I am not suggesting this usurps Mundaka; it is the perfect adjunct.
I am comfortable in my understanding of this matter and choose not to change your mind on turiya vs. turya - this has never been my intent. What was my intent? A road map for one to see where one could go if they chose to pursue this unfoldment.
It is in the wording that is causing mischief. Even with Brahman...one can be with this level of Being, identified with turiya. Yet that said, it does not infer that this identification is infused on the level of the senses.
It does not suggest or infer 1/4 Full or 1/2 Full - Fullness is there, yet the senses remain another area for Being to expand into. As one established in Being is in Silence, and looking out sees activity and the 3 guna in actions. Perfect Silence in me, and total activity in the relative field of life.
So , one can then bring this silence, see this silence on all levels of existence, not only Self-referral, but on the level of activity, sight , sound, touch, taste, etc. This has been my orientation - that this total growth is available and with His Grace can become Reality.
I will leave it here for now; Thank you for your efforts and posts as they have been rewarding.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Hari Om
Namaste Yajvan Ji,
Seven states of Consciousness and Three Steps of Atma.
Yajvan Ji your contribution is more voluminous (and more useful). Thank you for that.
But I personally adore the simple 12 verses than any Jungle. Through jungle one will arrive at the simplicity that is called Self, which has three stations. From a simple reading of Mandukya and logical analysis that ADVAITA SHIVO ATMA has to be known as ADVAITA only and in no other way, I am convinced that all Chetanas are within the ambit of Pragnya. Turya or Turiya is simply the essence of that. If Self is not there then who will experience Chetana? I should say that I am comfortable with this simple logical necessity of shruti, which is indeed the basis of Advaita.
One who is identical to shivo advaita atma turiya is the source of all chetana and he also experiences all chetana as omniscient. He is thus the seeker, the bridge, and the goal. Narada Bhakti Sutras also give the goal as attainment of Turiya, through Bhakti. Some do it through AUM. And there are innumerable other ways. But in Samadhi only the truth is known.
Yes I have read Brihad Arayanaka and I am still reading it. However, its not clear to me whether you are referring to Mandukya or Mundka?
I feel that there are no contradictions in Upanishads. 'One who understands Pragnya (the third state of Atma)' is different 'from one who sleeps ignorantly but theoretically understands Pragnya (like we all do).' One who has no ignorance of Sleep is Ishwara. Great globe of fire with sparks is One Agni. Great effulgence is One Taijjassa. Ishwara is One controller of every being, the third step of Atma . All these are steps of Shivo Advaita Atma.
I just repeat a verse from Svet. Upanishad:
Svet. Upanishad
Chapter One
11
When the Lord is known all fetters fall off; with the cessation of miseries, birth and death come to an end. From meditation on Him there arises, after the dissolution of the body, the third state, that of universal lordship. And lastly, the aspirant, transcending that state also, abides in the complete Bliss of Brahman.
So, beyond the third step is Brahman. You are enumerating Seven states of Consciousness and I am talking about Three Steps of Atma. Consciousness (Pragnya) is indeed a step of Atma. I must again point out that we do not even know Agni Vaisvanaro (the great ball of fire from which sparks emanate). We do not know Vena -- the clear bright effulgence. Ishwara is far off. Turya? It's so close yet distant.
I just happened to intuit the root of this mis-understanding. You are talking of seven states of consciousness and I am talking of three steps of Atma.
Yes, Turiya (the Fourth) encompasses all states of consciousness, from mundane to Brahmic.
It is in the wording that is causing mischief. Even with Brahman...one can be with this level of Being, identified with turiya. Yet that said, it does not infer that this identification is infused on the level of the senses.
Perfect. I agree fully. I just point out that one well settled in Turya/Turiya should have no chains on him that stops him to roam the jungles of senses. He is the real Avimukta.
Regards
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 17 August 2007 at 10:16 PM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
etad vai tat
Hari OM
~~~~~
Namaste atanu,
Yes, we have been on the same page all the way along... thank you for your note and clarity. I like how you say "should have no chains on him that stops him to roam the jungles of senses".
Yes, agree. I am in hopes that both of us can speak from this personal level of experience soon!
The Upanishads have been a blessing for me - just a wealth of practical knowledge that allows me to vividly understand this level of Being. For this I am grateful.
thank you again,
pranams,
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaste Yajvan Ji,
It is your wisdom and your vast reading that carried this discussion. Else, it would have degenerated into circular ego-arguments long back.
Accept my regards please.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Avadhuta
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste Atanu,
I fully agree!
Avadhuta
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste,
turya is the 4th, and especially the 4th state of the soul. And turya also refers to being in the 4th state of soul.
turIya means of 4 parts, and it indicates the 4th state of spirit (pure impersonal spirit or brahma). And turIya also refers to being in the 4th state of soul.
Whichever term is used, we must be careful to distinguish the 4th state itself from the various grades of experiencing or being in that state. For one who is entirely immersed in the turya state, there is surely no difference, but for discussion we must recognize these two aspects of meaning.
Shri Gaudapada used turya when referring to the absolute 4th, so perhaps the term turIya should be reserved for being in the 4th state of soul.
In which case, the turIya could indeed be described as a bridge to the turya.
And, while the nature of turya is beyond cetana, the experience of turIya certainly involves cetana.
The 3rd state of Consciousness is known as prAja, and the genitive (of the 3rd state) is prAjasya.
The Aitareyopanishad, however, uses the term pra-jAna (great knowledge or wisdom) and the genitive prajAnasya (of great wisdom).
prajA (wisdom) is the basis of the world. Verily, prajAna (great wisdom) is brahma.
As deep sleep, prAja is pra-aja (very unconscious), and this is different to the great intelligence of pra-jA.
turya = prajA = brahma
Immersed in turIya (as brahmA) one experiences prajA but appears to be prAja.
turIya (or being in turya) happens in prAja, but it is the bridge to turya.
From the perspective of both turya and turIya, however, prAja and prajA (like the opposites of vidyA and avidyA) are one and the same.
turIya is a veritable bridge to turya.
prAja is a veritable bridge to prajA.
brahmA is a veritable bridge to brahma.
And before ANY particular aspect of absolute Consciousness is dissected and described we must already have distinguished these identical Twins.
Member
Brilliant.
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
New Member
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste Sarabhanga
Most elucidating !
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste sarabhanga,
this is noteworthy and some of the wise say ignorance if the basis of the world. How so? In ignorance duality and diversity exist, hence giving us the world as we in avidya see it. With turiya, there is no world, but Brahman, ubiquity of existence.
The great Brahmarshi Gaudapada tells us the truth from his level of enlightenment:
The supreme truth is this: there is no birth and no dissolution, no aspirant to liberation and no liberated, and no one who is in slavery
(Mandukyakarika, II, 32).
Yet this takes the notion of your post and the cadence of what you are saying out of context. That is, you are building a foundation for a conclusion and I am suggesting one brick is out of alignment.
There is no ill-intent here as I see the wisdom of the post... just thought to offer another view; In the final anaysis, all is Brahman, and can be considered pure wisdom.
thank you and pranams,
Last edited by yajvan; 18 August 2007 at 09:02 PM.
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
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