Namaskar All,Originally Posted by yajvan
I think the bricks are laid properly. The whole concept seems to go well with Isha Upanishad.
Om
Member
Namaskar All,
I think the bricks are laid properly. The whole concept seems to go well with Isha Upanishad.
Om
Last edited by atanu; 25 January 2008 at 12:03 PM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
New Member
Good points. I too always thought that turIya is not a monolithic or an irreverisble state. It is a bridge to the Absolute. It is possible to attain turIya even with the vAsaNas.( like when Sri Ramakrishna conferred it on vivekananda momentarily) The loss of turIya samAdhi due to the pull of vAsanAs explains the fact that it is not the final state, and that there is the disturbance of indriyas. This is the main difference between Ishvara ( who is the only being who never comes under ignorance) and a realized sage who still cannot maintain perpetual turIya and has to try-try-try again until he is permanently immersed in turIya.
He is the one on whom our hope depends. For if Hanuman survives, all we though dead are yet alive. But if his precious life be lost though living still we are but dead: He is our hope and sure relief -Jambavan (Yuddha Kanda. 74). Impossibility=Hanuman
Avadhuta
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste Yajvan,
This is quoted directly from the Aitareya Upanishad:
“prajñA is the basis of the world. Verily, prajñAna is brahma”.
And the prajñA (“wisdom, intelligence, knowledge, discrimination, or judgment”) which is the “basis of the world” or the “support of all” is described (both in its diverse appearance and its underlying unity) in the preceding lines:
“This which is known as the heart, this mind, consciousness, mastery, knowledge of arts, comprehension, recollection, perception, fortitude, reflection, independent thinking, distress of the mind, memory, volition, application, maintenance of life, desire, lust, all these are indeed the appellations (applications) of prajñA.”
“This brahmA, this indra, this prajApati, all these Gods, these five great elements, earth, air, ether, water, fire, all these small creatures, these others, the seeds of creation, these oviparous, viviparous, sweat-born, sprout-born, horses, cows, men, elephants, whatever else which breathes and moves and flies and is immoveable ~ all these are guided by prajñA and are supported by prajñAna. The universe has prajñA for its guide. prajñA is the basis of all (the world). Verily prajñAna is brahma.”
brahma = prajñA = turya
And the pra-jñAnam (“great wisdom”) is exactly equivalent with the uttama satyam (“highest truth”) of Shri Gaudapada.
brahma = prajñA = turya = satya
I can see no misalignment here!
brahma = prajñA = satya
brahmA = prAjña = asatya
brahmA created the world out of ignorance or error (out of uncontrolled desire for brahmANI).
dvaita is asatya (a result of mAyA), and only advaita is ultimately satya (and shiva).
Member
Hope it does not generate too much controversy.
------------------------------------
Namaste Sarabhanga Ji and others,
At this stage, I bring forth another view. Of course, this view is not universally accepted, yet from scriptures and by fitting pieces like in zigsaw puzzle, I arrive here.
Prajnanam Brahma. Brahman is pure consciousness, which becomes the world. Everything is just modification of this pure consciousness.
But the knower of this eternal Brahman, wherein both vidya and avidya are hidden, is Brahma Pare – beyond Brahman. He is the controller of Maya. He is the One who went abroad. He is the Param Seer. He is Brahma yoni. He sees Hiryanagarbha being born. He is Purushottama when manifested and He is paramaà parastäd mahesvara.
This mahesvara is Iswara whithin Brahman, yet He is Brahma pare.
Svet Upanishad
Chapter 5
dve akñare brahma-pare tv anante
vidyävidye nihite yatra güòhe |
kñaraà tv avidyä hy amåtaà tu vidyä
vidyävidye éçate yas tu so’nyaù ||1||
yo yonià yonim adhitiñöhaty eko
viçväni rüpäëi yonéç ca sarväù |
åñià prasütaà kapilaà yas tam agre
jïänair bibharti jäyamänaà ca paçyet ||2||
1. In the imperishable and infinite Highest Brahman, wherein the two, knowledge and ignorance, are hidden, the one, ignorance, perishes, the other, knowledge, is immortal; but he who controls both, knowledge and ignorance, is another, beyond Brahman.
2. It is he who, being one only, rules over every germ (cause), over all forms, and over all germs; it is he who, in the beginning, bears in his thoughts the wise son, the fiery, whom he wishes to look on while he is born.
bhäva-grähyam anéòäkhyaà bhäväbhäva-karaà çivam |
kalä-sarga-karaà devaà ye vidus te jahus tanum ||14||
14. Those who know him who is to be grasped by the mind, who is not to be called the nest (the body), who makes existence and non-existence, the happy one (Shivam), who also creates the elements, they have left the body.
Chapter 6
tam éçvaräëäà paramaà maheçvaraà
taà devatänäà paramaà ca daivatam |
patià paténäà paramaà parastäd
vidäma devaà bhuvaneçam éòyam ||7||
Let us know that highest Mahesvara, the highest deity of deities, the master of masters, lord of lords, beyond the highest, as god, the lord of the world, the adorable.
I have seen different interpretations of Brahma pare (in verse 5.1 above). I go with what I have presented, since there is a term Brahma Yoni in this upanishad as well as in Gita.
So, Turya is prajñAnasya, while brahma = Prajnanam (the third step of Atma). Prajnanam is decidely param (definable), since it manifests in awareness, Turya is however, indescibable and beyond, param parastad.
Shankara has said: Those who have realised Brahman, the Highest Reality, merge the self in Turiya because they have transcended the notion of cause and effect, which inheres in the third quarter of Atman. They are not born again; for they have realised their identity with the causeless Turiya. ----.
Shankara does not say that those who have realised Brahman merge only in Brahman but goes further. Thus, Those who have known the jagat as Prajnanam (Brahman), are united with Turya.
And finally: "This Self is Brahman" indicates that Brahman is from this Self and not the reverse, supporting "Brahma yoni" phrase in shruti.
Om Namah Shivaya
Last edited by atanu; 19 August 2007 at 05:06 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Avadhuta
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste Atanu,
1. In the immortal and infinite brahmapara (i.e. brahma) the twin vidyAvidya is hidden; avidya is verily mortal and vidya is verily immortal; indeed, brahma who controls vidyAvidya is quite different from these (i.e. from vidya and avidya considered separately).
2. It is He (i.e. brahma) who, being one only, presides over every cause and every form; He sees the begetting and birth of the first born golden seer (hiraNyagarbha ~ i.e. brahmA) and endows him with all knowledge at the beginning.
brahma = brahmapara = vidyAvidya
brahmA = hiraNyagarbha = vidya & avidya
There is nothing beyond brahma!
brahmA is prajñAnasya (“of prajñA”) just as nArAyaNa is “of nara”.
turya = brahma = prajñA = prajñAnam = nara
turIya = brahmA = prAjña = prajñAnasya = nArAyaNa
In which case, the prajñAnasya nAmadheyAni of Aitareyopanishad 5.2 is specifically referring to the diverse “brahmA names” rather than the “names of brahma”.
But the next line (5.3) confirms that all of this is supported by brahma.
Last edited by sarabhanga; 19 August 2007 at 06:58 AM.
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste atanu,
thank you for your addition... this makes sense, as how we see the world
prAjña (in ignorance); Once enlightement dawns then this is washed away... the oinment of knowledge applied to the eyes as they say.
pranams,
यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namste sarabhanga,
beautiful - thank you for your efforts here.
turya = brahma = prajñA = prajñAnam = nara= Arjuna
turIya = brahmA = prAjña = prajñAnasya = nArAyaNa=Krsna
'Thou art mine and I am thine, while all that is mine is thine also! He that hateth thee hateth me as well, and he that followeth thee followeth me! O thou irrepressible one, thou art Nara and I am Narayana! We are the Rishis Nara and Narayana born in the world of men for a special purpose. O Partha, thou art from me and I am from thee! O bull of the Bharata race, no one can understand the difference that is between us!' ... Krsna, talking to Aruna, Arjunabhigamana Parva, Mahabharata
One more thing.. I do not comprehend this, can you help?
In which case, the prajñAnasya nAmadheyAni of Aitareyopanishad 5.2 is specifically referring to the diverse “brahmA names” rather than the “names of brahma”.
Can you perhaps compare/contrast the 'diverse names' to the 'names of brahma' - I see the names as a litany of them vs. diverse list - care to assist me in my understanding? I will go and look this up too,so there is no expectation of 'spoon feeding'.
pranams,
Last edited by yajvan; 19 August 2007 at 10:02 AM.
यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
Member
Namaskar Sarabhanga Ji,
You have said that there is nothing beyond Brahman. That is accepted by all. However, Brahman is expressed as Mukho of Pragnya and is measurable. Source of this measurable Brahman however is indescribable, which is beyond the term Param.
I know the translation that you give. It is commonly accepted and I also go by it. But Shri Aurobindo and few others give the alternative translation. As the sentence is "dve axare brahmapare tvanante", and not brahmpara, I have some curiosity. More so since mahesvara is stated to be paramparastaad and not just param, so I think that pure Pragnya is Param (Isha sarvasya yoni) -- whose mukha is "chit" and Saguna Brahman, whereas Turya is indescribable and param parastaad.
Else the following does not make sense:
Those who have realised Brahman, the Highest Reality, merge the self in Turiya because they have transcended the notion of cause and effect, which inheres in the third quarter of Atman. They are not born again; for they have realised their identity with the causeless Turiya. ----.
Shankara does not say that those who have realised Brahman merge only in Brahman but goes further. Thus, Those who have known the jagat as Prajnanam (Brahman), are united with Turya.
Om Namah Shivaya
It does not matter however, since in any case, the ignorance of deep (pragyanghana) sleep has to go.
Regards
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Avadhuta
Re: The Import of Turiya ...
Namaste Yajvan,
“This which is known as the heart, this mind, consciousness, mastery, knowledge of arts, comprehension, recollection, perception, fortitude, reflection, independent thinking, distress of the mind, memory, volition, application, maintenance of life, desire, lust, all these are indeed the prajñAnasya nAmadheyAni.”
I had originally translated prajñAnasya nAmadheyAni as “the appellations (applications) of prajñA”. But, following comments suggesting that prajñAnasya should itself be regarded as a name, I adjusted the translation. This variation, however, makes no difference to the overall meaning.
prajñAnasya is the genitive form of prajñAnam ~ the conception or seed of prajñA ~ the hiraNyagarbha.
What is the difference between a “list” and a “litany”?
This is a list (or litany) of various aspects of prajñA (“wisdom, intelligence, knowledge, discrimination, or judgment”) which are all part of worldly existence.
If we insist that these “kinds of intelligence” are specifically referring to the various “brahmA-namings”, then we see that brahmA (or nArAyaNa, both being influenced by mAyA) is directly responsible for all of these fluctuations of mind.
turya = brahma = prajñA = prajñAnam = nara = kRSNa = namaH shivAya = aghorghoratara
turIya = brahmA = prAjña = hiraNyagarbha = nArAyaNa = arjuna = shiM = aghoraghora
etad vai tat
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namsate sarabhanga,
thank you for your efforts here.. now I see what you are naming i.e. aspects or wisdom, intelligence, knowledge, discrimination, or judgment.
I was thinking other names of Brahman e.g. Bhuma, Aham, etc.
Now i see the logic of your post...
& like the valid additions you have made to this, yet would not Krsna = narayana? and Arjuna= nara?
turya = brahma = prajñA = prajñAnam = nara = kRSNa = namaH shivAya = aghorghoratara
turIya = brahmA = prAjña = hiraNyagarbha = nArAyaNa = arjuna = shiM = aghoraghora
I think we have made some signifcant progress on this matter of turiya and turya. Thank you and atanu for the great contributions. I am in hopes others can follow this line of reasoning, either from this HDF string , or;
Perhaps we can start a Turiya-lite post and boil it down so one can see and connect the dots back to their own sadhana e.g. turiya+turya+consciousness and ones potential progress/unfoldment - what it is, why it's possible, and grounded in the shastras.
I am sure for some that have followed this , at times, it must have felt like trying to take a drink out of a fire hose at 1500 psi.
pranams,
यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
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