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Thread: Un-Complicating the SELF became complicated!

  1. #31

    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Dear Saidevo and Atanu:

    Despite my attempts misunderstanding continues. Your comments contradict the very essence of spiritual journey. If any of us were truly undertaking the spiritual journey (practically) we would be showing lot more detachment from our own views and would come across lot less reactive to labels and messengers.

    In fact, you are all demonstrating the very point I am making. At a premature stage how attached once ego is getting to their own ideas. At the beginning stage of the journey a fragile ego (restless monkey) looks for any crutch to cling to. If I may point out, see how viciously the ego is clinging to the forum as a branch thereby preventing evolution into the next stage of the journey. When you are so viciously attached to your ideas you are negating the very essence of the whole journey. Out of this mess only the hand of grace can lift one!

    I suggest we take a break from this discussion and take a deep breath and more importantly take time to contemplate deeply about our own attachments and reactions!



    Good buy and have a great weekend!

    Blessings,

  2. #32
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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    ---------

    You remind me of Pharisees living at the time of Jesus Christ! ------
    Blessings,

    Namaskar Nirotu,

    If I remind you of Pharisees do you want me to remember you as Jesus?


    Please realise the enormity of your statements.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #33
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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Dear Saidevo and Atanu:

    Despite my attempts misunderstanding continues. ------,
    In fact your very eager attempts is the obstacle -- for you and not for others.

    The surrender message of Shri Krishna comes last in the 18th Chapter of Gita and the Karma, devotion, and Jnana before that. Through selfless karma, through devotional worship, and through discriminative knowledge one attains the child like ego less quality. Else, the reformer attitude, which is another name of inflated ego, prevails.

    It is accepted that Atanu is not ego free. But Nirotu you are requested to please examine your own status rather than pointing out flaws in others and everything will be OK. All your posts aver that you alone have surrendered fully while others are travelling on wrong paths.

    Please examine your statements earnestly.

    Shri Krishna and other sanatana dharma preceptors have not taught Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana as crutches but as practical aids, which are essential.

    Do not insult Sanatana dharma preceptors. And come out honestly as the real you: Anil ------, a christian reformer. We will respect you for honesty.


    Blessings,

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #34

    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Dear Saidevo:

    It never ceases to amaze me! A simple discussion led by Yajavan has been turned into a religion based discussion. Your responses are spread out in multiple posts and let me answer a few as best as I possibly can.
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    A Christian is required/encouraged to regularly attend the Sunday masses in his/her church, seek the counsel of the priest for spiritual guidance to invite and entertain Jesus in his daily life through the Holy Ghost or Spirit. The Christian dogmas do not allow a Christian to seek Jesus or His Father in a personal way, only through the hierarchy of priest-Spirit-Jesus-God.
    Is this your interpretation of Christian living? Where does it say in the Bible that going to Sunday mass is required to make you a Christian much less a better Christian? Frankly, going to Church on Sundays does not make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger!!!!

    I sense that you have known the Bible only from what you have seen in your surroundings. Just as Hindus personalize God, every true Christian believes in a personal relationship with God. For them it is not a religion but a relationship, personal one at that.

    Those who assert that the Holy Spirit is accessible only by believing in Christ betray their allegiance to a corrupt text! Those people seem to overlook the correct interpretation that comes from Luke 11: 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (KJV: Bold for emphasis)

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    Unlike the many Christians (known by their names) in HDF who have indicated their religion as Sanatana Dharma (perhaps they seek to strengthen their own faith in Christianity through the comforting concepts of Sanatana Dharma), you have not indicated your religion as Sanatana Dharma in your profile in HDF, so I take it to be Christianity.
    You seem to be hung up on what religious platform one comes from. Such labeling leads one to very pre-conceived ideas, which inevitably leads to prejudice. As I have said repeatedly in the past that no one should label people based on cast, creed, religion, which inevitably moves the spirit of discussion into confrontation! When my topic is based purely on spirituality I like to continue with the same flavor!

    Far and above that, this kind of emphasis on labeling and attention to “namarupa” is the very antithesis of true spirituality. The goal of true spirituality is to get liberated from the web that the mind spins as names and labels. So, emphasizing that, you are running counter to the very goal of such spiritual discussions. Hence, I would urge you to try and keep the focus on a little bit loftier emphasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    If that be so, I am surprised at your disparaging remarks about churches "where the ego is in full command of the scriptures"!
    I do not believe in institutional preaching, although, some are very honest in their presentation of the truth. Many adopt scare tactics to lure people into their fold. I do believe that a person’s allegiance to faith should be based on her/his sincere desire to seek truth and not based on personal emotional attachment to culture and tradition. And thus, when we continue to emphasize namarupa and labels, we remain caught in that very loop that we want to transcend!

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    Did the Apostles who wrote the Bible have ego? To what extent did it command/color the Christian scriptures? If they did not have ego, and everyone of them displayed a childlike surrender to Jesus (remember, one of them betrayed Jesus), why do their versions differ, specially when it is supposed to be Jesus' words to them and God's words to Jesus? Did the Apostles read each other's version? Is it not the expression of their egos that has resulted in differing versions? If it is, in what way are the Gospels the Truth about God and God's own words?
    First of all, I consider the scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit. As such, the Holy Spirit inspired their mind and not their pen! The different versions are written strictly for different audiences. The Ramayana written by Valmiki is different than the one written by Tulsidas at least in some textual areas. Although, I consider both have been inspired by the Holy Spirit they are projected to different audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The discussions about Christianity in this thread are the offshoots of your quotes and remarks. Do you think you can surrender to God, childlike, without having the knowledge of any religion or scriptures or a label for God like Jesus, Krishna, etc? Even God is a label!
    Hmmm! I would tread carefully! Lets look at the OP by Yajvan one more time and also my immediate response before all of you gave it a different spin! I have taken extreme care not to discuss Christianity while discussing a general spiritual topic. Go back and look each of my Ops. Those who sought deliberately to instill confrontation have snuck that in! I have quoted all Sages, Jesus Christ to make a point in our discussion. But, many have given their own spin to bring religious front! This should be painfully obvious to you!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The wisemen will understand that Prapatti is the connection, Bhakti is the communication, Jnana is the contents and Vedas are the field of our interaction with God, any god, personal or impersonal, of any religion.
    Very interesting indeed!! Let me use this to make my point. The brilliance of a light bulb cannot be known until it is connected to the source of electricity. Now, using your analogy of Prapatti as a connection, without that connection (Prapatti) nothing you or I do will lead you to the right end! Various modes that you describe viz, Jnana, Bhakti etc are like light bulbs of various voltages. For some Jnana is of higher voltage and for others it is Bhakti that forms a primary vehicle. But, in and of itself, they have no brilliance to demonstrate unless that connection to the source of energy is made!!

    I do believe that the Prapatti is the catalyst for all other modes to bloom in man!! This is what I have been saying all along, which unfortunately has been misinterpreted and spun out of control! The initial step in every spiritual journey has been the “surrender” to grace or the connection so to speak! All other activities such as Jnana, Bhakti are necessary but will not evolve unless the surrender takes place!

    Perhaps, I should back this up with my scriptural understanding:

    In Mahabharata Arjuna had all the knowledge, bhakti and the strength to take on the entire army of Kaurava single handed. Yet, he was not able to see the “vishvarupa” of God at least not until he bowed down to the Grace in complete humility and surrender! See how we remember Arjuna from scriptures.

    In Ramayana, Ravana is equally revered for his Jnana, Bhakti and knowledge. But, because his ego dominated over all these qualities, he did not bow down to the Lord (Rama). Now see how we remember Ravana from scriptures.

    Therefore, I agree that Prapatti (the connection) is the key to everything else! Otherwise, ego may dominate!

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    And, most importantly, our sects are all Vedas-based. If you say that Vedas are like opium, even qualifying them with the adjective 'sacred', then it is either reviling and shoving down your POV or displaying your (feigned) ignorance which is what is resented by the HDF members. There is no point in saying such things first and then being apologetic after the milk is spilled.
    Coming back to my very first response, I will admit that “opium” was a poor choice of word to go along with Veda. I have since reasoned with you and when that didn’t convince you, I apologized. But, your determined will has put a strong hold on to your ideas that is ignoring any reasonable view from the other side, which is evident in posts that are very judgmental in nature. Because, such judgments and conclusions seldom leave room for alternate possibilities. While I appreciate your passion for your own ideas, which is good because it keeps you going, but at the same time preventing you from seeing the other person’s point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    When you discuss either of them in a Hindu Forum, you are welcome to make a honest presentation of them as they are, without trying to extrapolate or discover hidden and metaphorical meanings in them that honest, enlightened Christian scholars and other Christians have not done.
    In any discussion whenever someone presents his/her vision of reality, he/she is merely highlighting pros of that viewpoint. That does not mean they are out to denigrate other people’s viewpoint but highlighting their own viewpoint. The highlight of my vision has always been the timing of the spiritual journey which has nothing to do with any religion at all! Just as how a make up of a person is dependent on early steps of child’s upbringing, the direction in which one evolves spiritually is greatly dependent on that first-step taken in his/her spiritual journey. Because, if I may add to what I said in earlier posts, giving that child a knife (at that beginning state of child’s development) could also invite danger on account of missing skills in that child. What is there to extrapolate here?

    Such judgmental attitudes coming from any are not conducive to a lively discussion. I do that too sometimes but only in response to accusations and I sincerely apologize for that. Perhaps, I like this best illustration by Mother Teresa on judging others with preconceived notion. Mother Teresa said, “If you judge people, you don’t have time to love them. If we are quick to pass judgment on others, we forget that they, like us, are human beings. As we seldom know what roads people have traveled before a shared encounter or why they have come into our lives, we should always give those we meet the gift of an open heart. Doing so allows us to replace fear-based criticism with appreciation because we can then focus wholeheartedly on the spark of good that burns in all human souls". (From Mother Teresa).

    Finally,
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    You seem to be fond of the quotes from Ramana Maharshi where he compares the mind to a monkey and a thief in the guise of a policeman. By these quotes you try to give an impression that Bhagavan Ramana supported childlike surrender to obtain God's grace.
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo

    Here is what the sage says about the role of God's grace and surrender in Self-Realization:
    With all due respect, Sree Ramana Maharishi’s quotes and sayings are actually addressing a seeker who is far along the journey where Grace can now be taken for granted. It is like a fairly grown up child now having the knowledge of security of his parents as opposed to a baby who needs to see visually his father and mother to feel secured.
    Once again, we have been addressing a seeker much at the beginning of his journey where we have emphasized more of a free-will turning to grace instead of getting caught in the rate race of life what I call 5 sensory realities. Again, please notice the “when in the journey” has been my emphasis all along!

    BTW, just know that it won’t come as a shock to me if points I made here are taken completely out of context to bring religious front!

    Blessings,

  5. #35
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    Let us really un-complicate the SELF

    The Self:
    According to the ancient sages of India, the Self is neither the body, thoughts, feelings, nor intellect, but rather all pervasive Being/Consciousness manifesting as the Heart in all beings, from which emanates the awareness of "I" and Knowledge of the Self, which includes the realization that all knowledge is in and from the subject-"I", the seer, not the object.


    Katha Upanishad

    "That in which the sun rises and in which it sets, that which is the source of all the powers of nature and of the senses, that which nothing can transcend - that is the immortal Self"
    "The Self-Existent made the senses turn outward. Accordingly, man looks toward what is without, and sees not what is within. Rare is he, longing for immortality, shuts his eyes to what is without and beholds the Self."
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #36

    Re: Let us really un-complicate the SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee View Post
    The Self:
    According to the ancient sages of India, the Self is neither the body, thoughts, feelings, nor intellect, but rather all pervasive Being/Consciousness manifesting as the Heart in all beings, from which emanates the awareness of "I" and Knowledge of the Self, which includes the realization that all knowledge is in and from the subject-"I", the seer, not the object.


    Katha Upanishad

    "That in which the sun rises and in which it sets, that which is the source of all the powers of nature and of the senses, that which nothing can transcend - that is the immortal Self"
    "The Self-Existent made the senses turn outward. Accordingly, man looks toward what is without, and sees not what is within. Rare is he, longing for immortality, shuts his eyes to what is without and beholds the Self."
    Dear Atanu:


    That is beautiful Atanu! I could not have said it any better myself! While it is nice to be reminded of the vary nature of “self” in the manifest creation, the question still remains - how does one un-complicate the “self”?


    For all the beauty in poems that describes the “higher-self” and its simplicity, yet while in creation the question remains not so much about the beauty of the “self” but more about getting to this “self” from the baseline level of material self! And, that brings back in full circle about the practical nature of our journey, the role of Grace, and the starting point of our journey etc.


    I can sit in my living room and admire the beauty of Hawaii all I want but that will not get me there. Seeing beauty of a flower blooming can give one a moment of pleasure but it will not make the higher self bloom in one! While I can stop for a moment and enjoy the beauty in all poetry that sings about “self” but it is only undertaking practical journey that will get one there. My struggle in all this is to find the best possible way to reach there. With all my self-efforts of its own, which seem to take me no where above the base line, I find only the hand of grace leading my effort to take me there.


    I hope I am not condescending with my remarks but only expressing personal strive in my own journey and highlighting the goal and purpose of an exchange like ours!


    Blessings,

  7. #37
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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Seeing beauty of a flower blooming can give one a moment of pleasure but it will not make the higher self bloom in one!

    *Be* the flower, recognize that 'flower' also is Self, and see who asks what happens?

    :P

    ZN
    /just sayin'
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Namaste Nirotu,

    Nice to see you discussing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    A Christian is required/encouraged to regularly attend the Sunday masses in his/her church, seek the counsel of the priest for spiritual guidance to invite and entertain Jesus in his daily life through the Holy Ghost or Spirit. The Christian dogmas do not allow a Christian to seek Jesus or His Father in a personal way, only through the hierarchy of priest-Spirit-Jesus-God.
    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Is this your interpretation of Christian living? Where does it say in the Bible that going to Sunday mass is required to make you a Christian much less a better Christian? Frankly, going to Church on Sundays does not make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger!!!!

    I sense that you have known the Bible only from what you have seen in your surroundings. Just as Hindus personalize God, every true Christian believes in a personal relationship with God. For them it is not a religion but a relationship, personal one at that.
    Yes, just as an ordinary non-Hindu (that's not you) knows about Vedas only from their rituals such as the fire ceremonies performed by brahmin priests, an ordinary non-Christian (that includes me), knows the Bible only from what he/she sees around.

    I am glad to hear from you that a true Christian believes in a personal relationship with God and that he/she considers Christianity as a personal relationship with God, not as a religion. I hope that such personal relationship does not give room for scoffing at other beliefs and practices, though the Bible has such passages, and generally preaches exclusivity of the Christian religion.

    I thank you for your other comments/observations/suggestions et al. I trust you are well past the first stage of your spiritual journey, having received God's grace. As for myself, I am still struggling with the trinity of our yoga paths, making little use of God's grace given to me as sunshine, perhaps due to my ego.

    A seed that falls into the womb of the earth germinates, fed by the elements and the grace of cosmic consciousness packed inside it. Once it becomes a plant, it finds that the sunshine of God's grace is all around, night and day, but can make little use of it, until it undergoes its own rigours of growth, making use of the elements around and spreading its branches and leaves in supplication. At the ripe time, the sunshine brings out the flowers, and thereafter the progress to the bliss of fruition is quick and the plant realizes its goal of life in the manifest creation. Once it bears fruit, it continues to serve mankind, in true advaitic altruistic love, until its final days, remaining as a jivanmukta.

  9. #39
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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Namaste Nirotu,

    -------
    A seed that falls into the womb of the earth germinates, fed by the elements and the grace of cosmic consciousness packed inside it. Once it becomes a plant, it finds that the sunshine of God's grace is all around, night and day, but can make little use of it, until it undergoes its own rigours of growth, making use of the elements around and spreading its branches and leaves in supplication. At the ripe time, the sunshine brings out the flowers, and thereafter the progress to the bliss of fruition is quick and the plant realizes its goal of life in the manifest creation. Once it bears fruit, it continues to serve mankind, in true advaitic altruistic love, until its final days, remaining as a jivanmukta.

    We are certainly blessed by your presence here. Humble yet sharp as the razor blade.

    Regards


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Un-complicating the SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    *Be* the flower, recognize that 'flower' also is Self, and see who asks what happens?

    :P

    ZN
    /just sayin'
    Again my regards for this brevity and beauty.

    Once, I saw a halo of light. I was lucky to remember (grace?) that I should enquire as to who was seeing the light. And, it was that queer indescribable thing. The light was seeing the light.

    It lasted just a moment. But enough to goad me on.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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