Un-Complicating the SELF became complicated!

[sm78]

Dear Satay, Sm78, Atanu and Saidevo:

Friends, you have made some pointed criticisms but I would like to clarify them. Finding faults with Sanatana Dharma has never been my goal neither has been proselytizing. I have been repeatedly emphasizing that I am more interested in practical undertaking of spiritual journey of a man. When the goal has been “spirituality” all along

Namaste Nirotu,

If practical spiritual journey is what you r interested in like most of us, then the answer lies in practice.

It is over ally agreed that various souls in various stages of evaluation need various means to progress to the path of self-realization.

Great Gods of Sanatana Dharma have revealed many tools for these very purpose...they are not egoistic concepts of human mind but true revelations from God. One has to follow a path of sadhana, and Grace is always there.

If a child like devotion is what you think is most practical for you, so it is. I am sure it brings out the grace of god most quickly (as per Hindu Shastras only).

But do understand that the grace of God is also very much present for the person who spends his life in inquiry of his true self and truth.

God is not bound by human ego and emotions. He is father to some & friend to others. It is only our Ego and mis-conceptions that we want to paint him in our limitations.

Just let me why do you think God will only graceful to the one who believes like a child and turn a blind eye to one who is seeking him as a friend ?? God is an Egotist or what ? He can't consider himself equal to his bhaktas ?

[saidevo]

It is said that the SELF can be realized via prapatti (complete surrender) to Isvara - this is pointed out in the Yoga sutras of Patanjali-muni. - Chapt 2, on practice, Isvara-pranidhana.

One can realize the SELF, and it is pointed out that the SELF realizes it SELF by its SELF - Katha and Mundaka Upanishad

Nirotu has gone gaga over the quote from Yajvan above and has started harping on his favourite subject of 'child-like surrender', reviling at the same time the paths of yoga and jnAna, calling them crutches.

Let us have a look at the context wherein Patanjali mentions devotion to Ishvara and understand his purpose in using the term.

The target verse in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras is as follows:

2:1 tapaH svAdhyAyeshvara prANidhAnani kriyAyogaH

Tapas (self-discipline), svAdhyAya (japa and study of the scriptures), and Ishvara prANidhAna (offering all actions to Ishvara and renunciation of the fruits of action) are Kriya Yoga (yoga of action).

Tapas

This is a rite done by mortification of the physical body in order to pass the duality of pleasure and pain. This physical body is what is seen externally. The mind is the subtle body which is not seen. It is necessary to gradually get released from the triguNa Prakriti (the manifest universe of three properties) by disciplining this life that is lived for the love of the body, so that it is possible to return to the Purusha, who is the real nature of the Self. Since we and the world around us are only those Prakritis that have combined with the Purushas, it is necessary to renounce the likes and dislikes about our worldly concerns. The likes and dislikes on our body are also to be renounced gradually.

In practice, however, since the worldly pleasures and comforts enslave us, we need to control the body and make it renounce those plesures and comforts.

Tapas becomes important in this context: 1) to discipline the senses that have got accumstomed to enjoyment over long periords of time and so pester us causing desires and necessities; 2) to stop generating further vAsanAs (impressions); and 3) to deactivate the existing vAsanAs.

Tapas is that which controls the body from its external expressions through its five senses.

The eyes look at beautiful scenes that give mental pleasure. Since it raises vRuttis in the mind that harm yoga, the act of pulling away the eyes from such scenes, breaking their tenacity, becomes Tapas.

In this way, the sAdhanAs (practices) done to control the eyes from not seeing what they should not see, the ears from not hearing what they should not hear, the tongue from tasting what it should not taste and the body from the tactile pleasures it should not experience, are also part of Tapas, since those sAdhanAs mortify the body.

If one has the desire to listen to good music, one should resist it with the realization that after all it is all sound, so one can remain without it.

One should give up tasty food and practice eating satva (spiritually conducive) food and remain happy with the realization that taste after all is only up to the tongue.

One should keep one's poise over the smells of fragrance and foulness.

When the body seeks the softness of bed, one should learn stretching it out on the rough surface of the floor; when shivering with cold, immerse the body in more cold water; when the body seeks coolness, make it adjust to the hot atmosphere around.

The prescriptions given above are the Tapas performed to take control of the body and mind. In addition, fasting would increase the supportive power of the body and the resilience of the mind.

When desires arise, one should keep away from them. When fear crops up, one should learn to remain in that atmosphere with the realization that things will happen only according to one's prArapta karma (karma that fructifies in this life). When in anger, one should increase the strength of tolerence by the realization that we are the reason for what happens to us. These practices, that help us to get past the duality and escape the vAsanAs are part of the Tapas.

Buddha has criticised extreme mortification of the body with such acts as lying on the bed of nails, growing fire in a circle and doing meditation sitting at the centre, doing meditation by standing on one leg, and so on.

Sri Krishna says in chapter six of the Bhagavad Gita:

6:16. Yoga is not possible for him who eats too much, nor for him who does not eat at all, nor for him who is addicted to too much sleep, nor for him who is (ever) wakeful, O Arjuna.

Tapas brings in vairAgya (dispassion). If the body is to withstand the practice of yoga, the laziness should go and both mind and body must be strengthened. For this reason, Tapas is mentioned first in this verse, in order to get into the activity of the rajas guNa from the inertia and ignorance of the tamas guNa.

svAdhyAya

This term generally refers to reading the shAstras (scriptures). To do pArAyaNa (reading through) of stotras (hymns), recite Vedas, study philosophical books and do mantra japa (mantra chanting) of praNava (the Aum mantra) and other mantras--all come under the svAdhyAya.

These reading and reciting efforts are for knowing the Self, the Purusha in us. Since the Atma jnAna (spiritual) texts are about Purusha, studying them becomes studying the Self. In its present state, since Jiva considers itself as a union of Purusha and Prakriti, reading about the world that is born out of the same union also helps knowing the Self. Thus, the study of Shastras and the recital of Vedas becomes svAdhyAya.

The AumkAra japam that denotes God, paves a way to know the Purusha in us and acts as a tool to get away from the Prakriti, it becomes svAdhyAya. The other japas that act as a staircase to reach the Purusha is also talked of as svAdhyAya. These japas help to cultivate the Ishvara prANidhAna, which is mentioned as the third acivity of Kriya Yoga.

The effort of Self introspection that involves critically looking at oneself, one's thoughts, acts and words is also svAdhyAya.

Ishvara prANidhAna

The term prANidhAna is from pra-ni-dha to place in front. In the yoga of meditation it means placing the mental figurations or pictures of lofty spiritual and intellectual themes in front and then meditating on them.

Unlike the Sankhya philosophy, the Yoga philosophy admits Ishvara as the Purusha behind the Jivas. When Ishavara is placed in front as the object of meditation, the yogi finds it easier to go on and the fruits of meditation reach him more quickly, which he needs to surrender to Ishvara himself in order to obtain samAdhi.

Patanjali Maharshi uses the term Ishvara prANidhAna in three places in his Yoga Sutra:

In Samadhi Pada, verse 23:
1:23 Ishvara prANidhAnadvA

Or due to Ishvara prANidhAnadvA (special devotion of offering all actions to Ishvara and renunciation of the fruits of action).

After talking about the different kinds of samAdhi and the varied approaches to it, here Patanjali Maharshi mentions Ishvara prANidhAna as the quickest way to it.

In Sadhana Pada, verse 1:
2:1 tapaH svAdhyAyeshvara prANidhAnani kriyAyogaH (2:1)

Tapas (self-discipline), svAdhyAya (japa and study of the scriptures), and Ishvara prANidhAna (offering all actions to Ishvara and renunciation of the fruits of action) are Kriya Yoga (yoga of action).

The surrender to Ishvara with devotion, mentioned in the Samadhi Pada is the highest state a yogi can wish for. Here the practice to reach that state is mentioned.

The yogi should first practice the sAdhanA of Tapas and obtain vairAgya (dispassion). He should get Atma jnAna by his svAdhyAya. Finally, he should surrender the fruits obtained by these acts to Ishvara and continue to do his Kriya Yoga with devotion to Ishvara, in order to reach the highest state and the quickest way to samAdhi mentioned in verse 1:23 of the Samadhi Pada.

By this, the yogi lets go his ego--the 'I' and 'my'--and realizes that everything is due to the acts of Ishvara. He gets the ability to move away from Prakriti and notice the Purusha in him. Since it is Ishvara who controls the union of Prakriti and Purusha based on one's karma, He is realized to be special and the yogi learns to surrender the fruits of his karmas to Ishvara himself and obtain samAdhi more quickly by His grace.

The Kriya Yoga mentioned here is the Karma Yoga that Sri Krishna mentions in Bhagvad Gita.

It is only the Prakriti that acts in yoga. The Purusha who is united to it is under the false impression that he is the doer. Surrendering the fruits helps him purify his chittA and get the maturity necessary for meditation and samAdhi.

Ishvara prANidhAna is placed as the third part of Kriya Yoga in order to emphasize that the Tapas and the svAdhyAya should be done keeping Ishavara in front in the yogi's mind.

Tapas should not be done for the worldly life or to harm and destroy the other people. Purunas have tales that the Asuras undertook such Tapas.

svAdhyAya should not be done just for the pleasure of knowing and using the nuances of the texts for gratification of the ego, which is the common practice of seekers today.

The fruits of yoga will be obtained only if the Japa is done to renounce the body, the world and the impressions and to know that Ishvara is the be-ness and doer of everything.

Finally, to cross the barrier of the ahamkAra (ego), it becomes necessary to submit to Ishvara who is the Almighty.

In the same Sadhana Pada, verse 45:
2:45 samAdhi siddhi Ishvara prANidhAnAt

From Ishvara prANidhAna, there is attainment of samAdhi.

This is what Vaishvam terms as the Prapatti, which can also serve as the one sure way to samAdhi as mentioned in the Samadhi Pada.

Prapatti is easy; at the same time difficult. Generally Bhakti Yoga is considered to be the easiest path; even more easy is Prapatti, by letting go one's efforts and surrendering to Ishvara, which is done only once, and thereafter the responsibility lies with Ishavara.

According to Sri Ramakrishna, it is safer that God holds our hands rather than we hold His.

Conclusion

So, where are we now, in the context of Patanjali Maharshi's recommendations about Ishvara prANidhAna?

In the Yoga Sutra, Ishvara prANidhAna is mentioned as the final stage of sAdhanA. Since his whole work is about the philosophy of Yoga, Patanjali Maharshi discusses the various ways of sAdhAna and the kinds of samAdhi they lead to, and emphasizes the necessity to keep Ishvara in front of all efforts and learn to surrender the fruits of actions of Him.

Thus, it is not a case of childlike surrender with blissful ignorance and continued inaction. The seeker should do his homework through Yama, Niyama and Yoga Sadhana, keeping Ishvara as the object of his efforts, before he can obtain the fruits and learn to surrender even them to Ishvara for the final samAdhi.

The child raises itself from the sitting position to standing and then toddling by its own efforts by holding on to objects it can find, learning the process by trial and error and with an elated mind. It never knows that its mother will give a finger to hold on to for standing and walking, though the mother is always around, watching its every movement, every moment. Once it is serious and sincere in its efforts of standing up and walking, its mother readily gives a finger and guides the child on its path. Thus, even the childlike surrender is not without efforts on the path of the child that we the seekers are.

Source:
Patanjali Yoga Sutram, a Bhasyam (in Tamil) by "Swami" (N.R. Sampat), a disciple who obtained mantra diksa from the Ramakrishna MaTham.

Glossary:
pArAyaNa - going over, reading through, persuing, studying
praNidhAna- laying on, applying, employment, endeavour, effect; consideration, attention or submission to; meditation, devotion.
prapatti - pious resignation or devotion
shAstram - order, rule, sacred or religious, scriptpure, science
stotra - praise, eulogium, a hymn of praise, ode

vRtti - urning, rolling; being, existence, livelihood, maintenance; mode of being or acting, conduct, behaviour, esp. good conduct or respectful behaviour towards; usage, practice, rule; nature, character, style; action, activity.

[sm78]

Nirotu has gone gaga over the quote from Yajvan above and has started harping on his favourite subject of 'child-like surrender', reviling at the same time the paths of yoga and jnAna, calling them crutches.

He doesn't get that, in reality, becoming a "child" from the corrupted "grow-ups" we are, just how much penance, self-purification, yoga and the else that we speak of is necessary.

Thanks for discussion on the Yog Sutras, saidevo, really appreciated.

[nirotu]

If practical spiritual journey is what you r interested in like most of us, then the answer lies in practice.

It is over ally agreed that various souls in various stages of evaluation need various means to progress to the path of self-realization.

Great Gods of Sanatana Dharma have revealed many tools for these very purpose...they are not egoistic concepts of human mind but true revelations from God. One has to follow a path of sadhana, and Grace is always there.

If a child like devotion is what you think is most practical for you, so it is. I am sure it brings out the grace of god most quickly (as per Hindu Shastras only).

But do understand that the grace of God is also very much present for the person who spends his life in inquiry of his true self and truth.

God is not bound by human ego and emotions. He is father to some & friend to others. It is only our Ego and mis-conceptions that we want to paint him in our limitations.

Just let me why do you think God will only graceful to the one who believes like a child and turn a blind eye to one who is seeking him as a friend ?? God is an Egotist or what ? He can't consider himself equal to his bhaktas ?

Well said, sm78!
Let me clarify some thoughts here. It is not God who is egotistic or not, but for sure man is! I am sure you will agree with this! Let me consider that as my starting point.

Therefore, when a starting point of our journey being emphasized, it is not about Grace turning a blind eye or not but it is more about the inability of the strong ego to use the tools with discernment. In fact, at this delicate stage of the journey that same thing happening is what Sage Ramana has warned about (Thief dressing up in policeman’s garb to catch himself!).

Perhaps, this simple analogy will help you understand it better.

If you place a knife in the hands of a 2 year old child, there is a danger that the child will misuse it (possibly hurt himself!) because of non-awareness of the tool. The same child when enters 12th grade, he will actually be presented with the same knife where he will skillfully use it to perform dissection or cooking or something useful. The point is he will know what to do with it. The same 12th grader when becomes a surgeon, the same knife in his hands possibly will save many lives.

So my friend, in this simple analogy there are three stages of this child’s development representing three crucial time points in child’s life, which are the same three time points in our spiritual journey and that is all I am cautioning about. I am not criticizing the tool (knife) but only pointing out the time point where they become valuable. When in our journey do we use Jnana, Bhakti, Self-purification is the point of my emphasis.

Look carefully all my posts starting from my joining date, you will find my emphasis all along has been turning to grace as a starting point. With the grace as a starting point, the hold of the ego is lessened and all practices will ensue. These practices of jnana, yoga etc will follow at a later time but if used prematurely, you might be giving ego-child the knife too soon.

Blessings,

[nirotu]

The child raises itself from the sitting position to standing and then toddling by its own efforts by holding on to objects it can find, learning the process by trial and error and with an elated mind. It never knows that its mother will give a finger to hold on to for standing and walking, though the mother is always around, watching its every movement, every moment. Once it is serious and sincere in its efforts of standing up and walking, its mother readily gives a finger and guides the child on its path. Thus, even the childlike surrender is not without efforts on the path of the child that we the seekers are.

Dear Saidevo:
While I do thank you for your elaboration on Patanjali, I did notice your conclusion which helps make my point. I hope you are able realize that so. I am just using a part of it.

The child’s analogy that you so beautifully describe actually makes my point as well. I am not saying there is no effort at all. In this analogy the child simply stands and holds the hand of the mother, which I like to call grace. The child did not have to think or analyze through meditation, yoga or any other crutches but simply, instinctively, knows there is chair to hold on to or there is mother to hold on to! That instinctive knowingness is what I have been emphasizing. The effort in child is still there but the knowing ness did not require knowledge as a tool! That instinctive turning to mother is what we call turning to grace. This is in fact a beautiful example where you can see, before mind jumps in or before thinking machine is turned on, there is instinctive desire in that child to stand.


No where, have I criticized the tools such as Jnana, Bhakti, Yoga etc. But the premature use of it can only work against us, as ego's hold is strong in man's life. The catalyst to all these practices is that simple initial child-like turning to grace. Read my response to sm78!

Frankly, this has been the hallmark of many Sages as well as Jesus Christ where without any heavy preaching, they have showed child-like grabbing of the hand of grace before implementing all other practices. That is the simplicity that eludes man!

Blessings,

[saidevo]

Namaste Nirotu,

...in creation the duality of nature has come into being. Of this, one being the “lower self” and the other being the “higher self”. Many are of the opinion that the “self” is purest in nature but in creation the sensory web has clouded the pure-self.

Here is a useful explanation of the Self and the ego:

Self Theosophical literature distinguishes between self and ego: self is a purely spiritual unit, divine in essence, the same in every being, expressed as "I am"; egos are many, different in different beings, and expressed as "I am I." Egos are indirect or reflected consciousnesses, seeing themselves as apart from other egos, each having its own individualized characteristics. But the self or atman is the purest and strongest intuition of being as a universal principle and as the summit of the hierarchy called man. It is pure consciousness, the essential principle which gives to every person knowledge of selfhood. As it has no egoic consciousness, it seems to our reason to be unconsciousness. To become self-conscious, a vehicle is needed, so that the self may see itself reflected as in a mirror.

In humans what is called the personal self is a compound, in which the true selfhood or atmic ray shines dimly through many screens. This causes our various mental states to be regarded as pertaining to our own individuality, though they are actually influences which flow into and out of the mind, and to which we attribute a false sense of ownership, as when we say, "I am angry," instead of "I am experiencing anger." The path of liberation frees us progressively from these false selves; we abandon the heresy of separateness, and at last see the true self within us as being identical with that self in all beings.

Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/sed-sez.htm

Here is an elaborate illustration of how Atman, which is a spark from the Paramatman, manifests as different egos in the human constitution.

Ego (Latin) The personal pronoun "I"; in philosophy and theosophy, the ego is the center of 'I-am-ship' or egoity in the human being. There are two such centers: the spiritual and impersonal, commonly called the individuality; and the personal, often called the soul or the personality. The former ego is unconditionally immortal, the latter ego is conditionally immortal, but in most cases mortal because of its lack of binding aspirations with its higher Over-self, the individuality.

The ego is that which says "I am I"; it is indirect or reflected consciousness, consciousness recognizing its own mayavi existence as a separate entity. It is not the permanent self or the atma-buddhi-manas considered as an indissoluble triad; for all egos in the human constitution are reflections of the permanent spiritual selfhood. This means that there are innumerable egos of the same kind -- "myself" and other similar myselves -- also that there are egos of different kinds.

If we consider the hierarchy of the human constitution to grow from the immanent or permanent self, regarding this as the very seed of essential egoity, then a mayavi ego will be formed on each of the planes of matter and therefore on all the planes or layers of the human constitution; the seed of egoity manifesting itself in each successive vehicle and thus producing there an ego, permanent or impermanent according to its distance from the permanent self.

fso9aa.jpg

Thus we have: atman, the divine monad, giving birth to the divine ego, which latter evolves forth the monadic envelope or divine soul. Jiva, the spiritual monad, has its child, which is the spiritual ego, and this in turn evolves forth the spiritual soul or individual; and the combination of these two, considered as a unit, generally speaking, is atma-buddhi; bhutatman, the human ego -- the higher human soul, including the lower buddhi and higher manas; pranatman, the personal ego -- the ordinary human soul or person -- including manas, kama, and prana; and finally the beast or animal ego -- the vital-astral soul: kama and prana

Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary:
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/ea-el.htm

Devoid of such material impositions the self not just realizes but knows its true nature.

Knowing and knowledge comes before realizing and realization, which is the ultimate form as applied/experienced knowledge.

Remain blessed, rather than blessing.

[saidevo]

For an inflated ego, Vedanta merely acts as an opium, so the best thing to do would be killing the ego that is masking the pure-self before realizing the true-self.

Karl Marx said religion is opium to the people. Your saying that Vedanta acts as an opium is like saying that Vedas are opium. Where is your prapatti, bhakti or even your Jesus' teachings without Vedas?

Here is an illustration of how prapatti is intimately connected to Vedas, here the Sama Veda:

Sama Veda, as you know, is the Veda of Music, and teaches Nadhopasana (worship through music) as a path to Brahman. Priests, known as Udgatri Priests, at Vedic rituals sing the Sama Veda mantras. That singing is known as Udgita. The Chandogya Upanishad in Sama Veda refers to the Pranavam (the Aum mantra) as the the imperishable Udgita (song).

(Chandogya Upanishad)
I-i-1: One should meditate on the syllable Om; the Udgitha, for one sings the Udgitha, beginning with Om. Of this, the explanation follows.

I-i-2: The essence of all these beings is the earth. The essence of the earth is water. The essence of water is vegetation. The essence of vegetation is man. The essence of man is speech. The essence of speech is Rik. The essence of Rik is Saman. The essence of Saman is Udgitha.

I-v-1: Now, that which is Udgitha is verily Pranava and that which is Pranava is Udgitha. The yonder sun is Udgitha and also Pranava, for he moves along pronouncing ‘Om’.

Aum as the PraNava is the state of Brahman before its manifestation as SaguNa Brahman, so it is verily Brahman himself. Aum is the essence, the undercurrent of all mantras and music, which are integral parts of worship through bhakti or devotion, where Prapatti plays a major role.

Saint Thygaraja, one of the best examples of Prapatti, totally surrendered to Sri Rama through his songs and became a Jivan Mukta. In his Saramati Raga Kriti (song), Thygaraja expatiates on the origin of Nada from Aum: Nada is born of the interaction of PraNaa and Agni. The seven Svaras and Nada originated from the Aumkara described by the Udgita of the Upanishads.

In the Hindola RagA Kriti, Thygaraja brilliantly brings out the intimate connection between Sama Veda, Sapta Svaras and Pranavam and praises Sri Krishna as their form:

"Sama Nigamaja Sudhamaya Gana Vichakshana Vedasiromatruja Saptasvara Nadaachala Deepa"

"O Lord Krishna shining like a beacon of light on the mountain of Nada based on the seven Svaras born of Pranavam, which is the source of all Vedanta! O Lord adept in the nectar-like music born of Sama Veda! O celebrated Lord, who transcends Time! Please protect me."

In his andholika raga kriti, "RagaSudhaRasa", the Saint reveals that great souls, who have the knowledge of the Svarasthanas, Nada and Aumkara are Jivan Muktas. At the end of the same kriti he says that Nada, Svara and PraNava are the very form of Sadasiva Himself. In his Chittaranjani song, "Nada Tanumanusam", the saint states that Siva is verily Nada and particularly the quintessence of Sama Veda, the best among the Vedas. Here he states that the Seven Svaras originated from the 5 faces of Sadasiva.

For more details, check http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/cgi-...se/Nadhopasana

You should thus understand that Prapatti is not inaction or just worldly actions with God in the consciousness; it is essentially meditation keeping God in the front (Ishvara prANidhAna), and thus is intimately connected to the paths of Yoga and Jnana advocated in the Vedanta.

[satay]

So, is God's grace available by surrendring to Jesus only?

Reread my previous posts. When you understand the definition of “grace” you will see the truth in what I am saying. The “grace” is an unmerited favor of God and as such, any one can avail of it where no qualifications required! It is there for the asking! No where in the Bible does it say “you have grace only through Jesus”.

WHAT!!
My dear friend nirotu, I don’t know if you are serious or are you pulling my leg. If you are pulling my leg, okay, I admit that you got me!

It is you who has the wrong understanding of ‘grace’ even per Christian understanding. Grace is a ‘favour’ yes (according to Christian understanding) but don’t forget what Paul says!

“so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign…to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”

Try to understand the Christian meaning behind the creation. Why did God create the universe? Why did he spend thousands of years preparing for Christ? Why was there an incarnation and death and then resurrection of Jesus?

And don't overlook...

Colossians 1:16

“All things are through him and for him”

The triumphant reign of grace unto eternal life is “through Jesus Christ our Lord” !!

This is the Christian understanding according to New Testament.

When I invited you on HDF I was looking forward to a Christian perspective and a dialogue, however, I have to say that I am very disappointed in your behaviour on HDF.

As a Christian you are not sincere in presenting the gospel properly, you are in as they say, trying to build ‘in roads’ by hook and crook and by saying anything and everything twisting the message of Christ to get accepted among us as a ‘sob story’. I am truly very disappointed.

Once again, I think that all members here would appreciate your honesty not only with us but to yourself. You owe it to yourself. Please forget about twisting the message and building inroads with gentiles and first try to understand the message and importance of Christ from Christian perspective.

Pope St. Leo had this to say, “The Law through Moses, Grace through Jesus”

By removing Jesus from the equation you have made God’s plan and his son’s sacrifice useless.

God’s grace is ONLY available through Jesus Christ is the Christian understanding. If you don’t hold this view anymore, I don’t think that you are presenting the Christian view point here on HDF.

It is a sad commentary that Jesus Christ was crucified only once but in these days many Christians and Non-Chrsitians crucify Him daily with a corrupt understanding of His message!

Yes, Indeed!

Read Romans properly, especially chapters 1 to 5.


Oh and by the way, Gyana, Bhakti, Yoga and Meditation might be useless crutches to you and your fellow brethern, however, they remain valid paths to moksha or salvation according to our scriptures.

As Singhi has already explained very nicely, if 'grace' works for you that is all well and good. Please do not shove the concept of 'grace' down other people's throats.

And I have quoted so much of the malecha scripture here that I need to recharge myself mentally so I have to end with a verse from the song of the lord.

At the end of Gita, Arjuna says in adhaya 18 shloka 73

nasto mohah smrtir labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
karisye vacanam tava

"By your grace my delusion is destroyed, I have gained self knowledge, my confusion with regard to body and spirit is dispelled and I shall obey your command"

note to self: move these posts to christian forums...

note to nirotu: this post has been reviewed by AgniDeva a member with several years of experience in moderation on another forum. I have edited it accordingly to remove lines that could have been considered as personal attacks indirectly.

Personal attacks (direct or indirect) were never my intention. Members on HDF only want you to be honest in presenting the christian point of view or provide explanation of your personal assertions that seem to be based on the bible.

Especially, I will be waiting for your explanation on the remark below, which is clearly contrary to the central message of jesus. I have provided some quotes from your scripture to support my remarks that your statement below is against the teachings of Jesus. Note that I am only a student of your scriptures and lack the indepth understanding that you may.

Havind said that though I must stand by my understanding that 'salvation and grace come through jesus alone' otherwise he, his sacrifice and god's little plan are useless even to christians!

No where in the Bible does it say “you have grace only through Jesus”.

[sm78]

Perhaps, this simple analogy will help you understand it better.

If you place a knife in the hands of a 2 year old child, there is a danger that the child will misuse it (possibly hurt himself!) .......

My dear friend everyone is not a year old child. A child must grow up one day ... sure you will too ....

[atanu]

Dear Satay, Sm78, Atanu and Saidevo:

-----

Atanu:

You seem to again and again help make my point! Yes, Vedanta will not be revealed to an inflated ego! That is why ego has to be deflated first! That can only happen through surrender and what I call the first step!

Atanu, all I am trying to say is that the start of the journey is very crucial because of the tenacious hold of the ego. ------,

Namaste Nirotu,

On the contrary.

As before, I will request you to be truthful. Please obtain clarifications of your thoughts from yourself and then write. You had written "For an inflated ego, Vedanta merely acts as an opium,----" This is very different from "Yes, Vedanta will not be revealed to an inflated ego!".

When an inflated ego has no chance to reach Vedanta then how can Vedanta ever become opium to an inflated ego?


Nirotu, it is simply not surrender where one is more concerned about other paths and their deficiencies rather than one's own path.


Although, I once more request you to be truthful to yourself and decide first as to what you really want to convey, I know that my request is futile since time and again you have betrayed brash attitude towards different paths of sanatana dharma.


Om Namah Shivaya