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Thread: Do Shaivas accept this?

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    Do Shaivas accept this?

    Namaste.

    I'm reletively new to Hinduism (born a Christian, converted to Hinduism from Islam), and the path I've chosen is Vaishnavism. However, I want to know the beliefs of Shaivas, also. I believe that Shaivism and Vaishnavism are two sides of the same coin.

    It is stated in the Bhagavata Purana:

    "To those unaware of Your position understanding it the material way do You, by Yourself expanding Your maya, appear for the matters of creation as Me (Brahma), as Yourself for the purpose of maintenance and as Lord Trinetra (Shiva) in the end." (Bhagavata Purana 10.14.19)

    Too many Vaishnavas are ignorant of this verse (one of many which claim that Lord Shiva is Lord Vishnu), and so they call Lord Shiva a demigod, which in reality is an insult to both Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu.

    Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the few Vaishnavas who believes this.

    So my question to Shaivas is this: do you accept this verse from the Bhagavata Purana? Do you see Lord Shiva as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, or vice-versa (Lord Vishnu as an incarnation of Lord Shiva)? Also, do you worship Lord Vishnu or do you see Him as the "greatest Shaiva" (like many Vaishnavas see Lord Shiva as the "greatest Vaishnava")?

  2. #2

    Smile Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Namaste Haridas
    you are not allone in this understanding. I am fammiliar with vaisnava philosophy and practice for more then 15 years and I must agree whith you. Recently I become interesting in saivisam.

    All vaishnavas should worship Lord Shiva with great respect, and Amaala Purana or Bhagavatam confirms this - vaisnavam yatha sambho. Of all vaishnavas Lord Shiva is the best. Therefore every vaisnava should worship Lord Shiva or at least have respect toward Him and His sevakas. It is nonsence to think oposite.

    svapne jagarane sasvath krsna dhyana ratah sivah
    yatha krsnas tatha sambhur na bhedo madhavesayoh

    "Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Krsna. As is Krsna, so is Sambhu; there is no difference between Madhava and Isa." (Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda 2.56.61)


    Also Mahabharata (Anusasana-parva 135) says that Visnu and Shiva are nondifferent and even counts the names Shiva, Sarva, Sthanu, Isana, and Rudra -- names traditionally identified with Shiva -- among the thousand names of Visnu.


    In Brhad-Bhagaavatamrta 1.2. 64-85 Srilla Sanatana Goswami wrote


    84 Ah! All the residents of Sivaloka are liberated souls. By Siva's mercy how many of them are not only liberated, but are now pure devotees of Lord Krsna?


    85 To consider Siva different from Lord Krsna is a great offense. The Supreme Personality of Godhead may forgive offenses committed to Him, but He does not forgive those committed against Siva


    om namah shivaya

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Pranam Haridas welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
    Namaste.

    I'm reletively new to Hinduism (born a Christian, converted to Hinduism from Islam), and the path I've chosen is Vaishnavism. However, I want to know the beliefs of Shaivas, also. I believe that Shaivism and Vaishnavism are two sides of the same coin.

    It is stated in the Bhagavata Purana:

    "To those unaware of Your position understanding it the material way do You, by Yourself expanding Your maya, appear for the matters of creation as Me (Brahma), as Yourself for the purpose of maintenance and as Lord Trinetra (Shiva) in the end." (Bhagavata Purana 10.14.19)

    Too many Vaishnavas are ignorant of this verse (one of many which claim that Lord Shiva is Lord Vishnu), and so they call Lord Shiva a demigod, which in reality is an insult to both Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu.

    Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the few Vaishnavas who believes this.

    So my question to Shaivas is this: do you accept this verse from the Bhagavata Purana? Do you see Lord Shiva as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, or vice-versa (Lord Vishnu as an incarnation of Lord Shiva)? Also, do you worship Lord Vishnu or do you see Him as the "greatest Shaiva" (like many Vaishnavas see Lord Shiva as the "greatest Vaishnava")?
    What you say is verynice, most Hindu see trimurti as aspect of the same supreme, narrow view of some sect distort the true nature of the Lord even when they see the evidence infront of them they try to ignore this.
    what clear evidence one want When Krishna says i am Shankra of the rudras.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~


    Namaste Haridas , Ganesahprasad, Arcanum (et.al)


    What you bring forward is of great interest (to me)... I have listened for the past 35 years on how one Lord is superior to another. That one is the cause of the other. For me , and the knowledge of Brahman and Vedanta offers, its a moot point ( for me)... How can there be two infinity's? How can my Istadevata not include all other forms and permutations of His/Her divine incarnations.

    The wise know all this is Brahman and this is not a foreign concept to us here on HDF. This unity is most attractive to me, therefore going into any Mandir and bowing to Siva, Rama, Krsna, Visnu, Sri, Ganesha, brings joy as the comprehension of Brahman is there.

    Krsna says this many times in the Gita. He is the Universal SELF; He is Skanda-ji, the Kumaras, Siva (Rudra), he is Visnu, the graha's... I am sure I am not telling you anything you do not know, and I am not lecturing. This is the glory of advaita, that ajnana melts away and we are viewing Bhuma, fulless, the plenum of Being.

    So if one wishes to see this Fullness as Siva, or Krsna, or Shakti, etc. I am of the opinion let it be so. Yet when one takes a position that one expression of the Divine is fuller, or better or more superior, one has missed the opportunity for their Ishatadeva to be all encompassing. [ please note I am not inferring that any on this posting is doing this ]


    just a thought - hoped to add just a slightly differerent view on this matter.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Namaste Haridas , and Arcanum (et.al),

    The Self is the highest God, since even God must have a Self. This is Sanatana Dharma.

    Now, the Self is always Shiva and Eko -- the good one, the pure one. And the Self being ONE, there is really no need to pervade anything. Pervading can only happen when the Self has, as if, crumbled into many pieces -- and that happens in ignorance.

    I am not a Shaiva, by the way.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Namaste all, and thanks for replying.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    So if one wishes to see this Fullness as Siva, or Krsna, or Shakti, etc. I am of the opinion let it be so. Yet when one takes a position that one expression of the Divine is fuller, or better or more superior, one has missed the opportunity for their Ishatadeva to be all encompassing. [ please note I am not inferring that any on this posting is doing this ]
    Your thought is true as it's supported clearly in Scripture. Here's one example:

    You are Vayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Chandra, Prajapati, and Great-grandfather. I bow, yea, I bow to You a thousand times, Again and again I bow, I bow to You! (Bhagavad Gita 11.39)

    It seems to me that only Sri Shankara's philosphy agrees with all the Scriptures, as all 4 sampradayas in Vaishnavism, for example, twist up this verse to fit their own views or even, as one "translator" did, change the meaning of the verse to mean something about Lord Vishnu being the elements (the "translator" was forced to leave out death because it would've contradicted his views).

    Thanks again for posting.

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
    Namaste all, and thanks for replying.



    Your thought is true as it's supported clearly in Scripture. Here's one example:

    You are Vayu, Yama, Agni, Varuna, Chandra, Prajapati, and Great-grandfather. I bow, yea, I bow to You a thousand times, Again and again I bow, I bow to You! (Bhagavad Gita 11.39)

    It seems to me that only Sri Shankara's philosphy agrees with all the Scriptures, as all 4 sampradayas in Vaishnavism, for example, twist up this verse to fit their own views or even, as one "translator" did, change the meaning of the verse to mean something about Lord Vishnu being the elements (the "translator" was forced to leave out death because it would've contradicted his views).

    Thanks again for posting.
    And that one is suppose to be 'As it is', how sad.
    thank you for bringing this up.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Namaste Haridas,
    Quote Originally Posted by Haridas View Post
    So my question to Shaivas is this: do you accept this verse from the Bhagavata Purana? Do you see Lord Shiva as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, or vice-versa (Lord Vishnu as an incarnation of Lord Shiva)? Also, do you worship Lord Vishnu or do you see Him as the "greatest Shaiva" (like many Vaishnavas see Lord Shiva as the "greatest Vaishnava")?
    This is an excellent thread, and some excellent questions. As far as Agamic Shaivas are concerned, God is called Shiva. Shiva is All and in All (this is per Shaivite non-dualism). It is Shiva who has created this world, sustains this world, and dissolves this world; Shiva has concealed Himself throughout creation, and when one is sufficiently matured, He will become revealed as All and in All. In these various capacities, Shiva is called Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Maheshvara and Sadashiva, respectively. These five forms of Shiva are collectively called Pancha-Brahma (Fivefold Brahman), and are alternatively known as Sadyojata, Vamadeva, Aghora, Tatpurusha and Ishana. So, all these forms are Shiva Himself appearing through His Shakti(s).

    Now, when Shaivism aligns itself with the Puranic literature, one sees the same thing as what we see in the Vaishnava Puranas. There are plenty of instances in the Shaiva Puranas, where Shiva is seen as supreme, and Brahma and Vishnu are seen as subordinate. The classic case is the Jyotirlinga legend. Nevertheless, in Shaiva traditions, one does not see Vishnu as the greatest Shaiva or vice versa. The tendency in Shaivism is to see Vishnu and Shiva as one and the same. Put another way, just as Shaivism maintains the oneness of Shiva and Shakti, so also it maintains (although perhaps not as strongly) the oneness of Shiva and Narayana. This comes through in Shaiva iconography most beautifully: the oneness of Shiva-Shakti is depicted as Ardhanarishavara (half Shiva, half Shakti), and the oneness of Shiva-Vishnu is depicted as Hari-Hara (a.k.a. Shankara-Narayana; half Shiva, half Vishnu). In Saiva Siddhanta theology, both these forms figure into the 25 most important forms of Shiva.


    Hari-Hara Murti


    Aum Namah Shivaya,
    A.
    In whom the Adityas, Rudras and Vasus are held together; in whom are set firm the worlds; that which was and that which shall be tell me of that Support who may He be? (Atharvaveda Samhita X.7.22)


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    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Namaste Haridas,

    This is an excellent thread, and some excellent questions. As far as Agamic Shaivas are concerned, God is called Shiva. Shiva is All and in All (this is per Shaivite non-dualism). It is Shiva who has created this world, sustains this world, and dissolves this world; Shiva has concealed Himself throughout creation, and when one is sufficiently matured, He will become revealed as All and in All. In these various capacities, Shiva is called Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Maheshvara and Sadashiva, respectively. These five forms of Shiva are collectively called Pancha-Brahma (Fivefold Brahman), Aum Namah Shivaya,
    A.
    Namaste Agnideva,
    a great post... as this is a balanced and enlighted view. When I read your post I am drawn to the Bhagavad Gita - as I see no difference in Siva (Meheshvara some may say Sadha Shiva when they read the line below) and Krsna (Vasudeva) in their singularity. Chapt 4 verse 6 says it best for me: Though I am unborn (ajah) and of imperishable nature (avyaya), though Lord of all beings (Isvara), yet remaining in my own nature I take birth through My own power of creation.

    Krsna-Siva explain His transcendental nature of the imperishable ,aksara, Yet talk of creation of the family of man ( and all of creation) from prakriti, yet He resides in His Absolute form even when He chooses to manifest as avatara.

    The harmony of siva-krsna is there, yet many choose to separate these Divinities... as I have mentioned as of late - how can one divide Infinity? If this is done this is the maya people discuss. The thinking that one can meter out infinity into chunks of time, place and object.

    There are many more slokas in the Gita that expound the greatness of the Imperishable (Siva) and the sameness of Krsna and Rudra, yet we tend to forget the beginning chapters of the Gita where Krsna lays the ground work. There are wonderful gems in the 1st 6 chapters.

    Namah Sivaya
    Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10

    Re: Do Shaivas accept this?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Namaste Agnideva,
    a great post... as this is a balanced and enlighted view. When I read your post I am drawn to the Bhagavad Gita - as I see no difference in Siva (Meheshvara some may say Sadha Shiva when they read the line below) and Krsna (Vasudeva) in their singularity. Chapt 4 verse 6 says it best for me: Though I am unborn (ajah) and of imperishable nature (avyaya), though Lord of all beings (Isvara), yet remaining in my own nature I take birth through My own power of creation.

    Krsna-Siva explain His transcendental nature of the imperishable ,aksara, Yet talk of creation of the family of man ( and all of creation) from prakriti, yet He resides in His Absolute form even when He chooses to manifest as avatara.

    The harmony of siva-krsna is there, yet many choose to separate these Divinities... as I have mentioned as of late - how can one divide Infinity? If this is done this is the maya people discuss. The thinking that one can meter out infinity into chunks of time, place and object.

    There are many more slokas in the Gita that expound the greatness of the Imperishable (Siva) and the sameness of Krsna and Rudra, yet we tend to forget the beginning chapters of the Gita where Krsna lays the ground work. There are wonderful gems in the 1st 6 chapters.

    Namah Sivaya
    Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya

    pranams,
    Namaste Yajvan, Agnideva, et al.

    I too, see no difference between Krsna and Siva. I do not have the scholarly background that many of the contributors to HDF have. But, having read widely, meditated and churned so much information and so many opinions, over many years, I have come to the conclusion that it is "both and" and not "either or".

    How is it even possible that Krsna and Siva are different?.

    Pranam,

    Devi

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