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Thread: An Ocean of Knowledge...

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    An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~

    Namaste,

    If one is new to Sanatana Dharma [Vaidika Dharma - the knowledge or Dharma of the Veda's or Arsa Dharma, the Dharma of the rishi's] there is much to read.

    I liken it to walking into a library for the fist time and seeing all the books. Where does one start? Fiction ? Non-Fiction? The sciences? Perhaps it makes sense to layout the library so one can then pick and choose where one might want to investigate.

    Lets do this in two posts so each one is reasonable in length. Lets lay out some of the Shastra's (or Sastra) for consideration… this post will not be exhaustive, but an outline that can assist you as a framework.

    Six Key Shastras - lets start here. Are there more then these? Sure, but lets not boil the ocean!
    • Srutis
    • Smritis
    • Itihasas
    • Puranas
    • Agamas
    • Darsanas
    Sruti

    This word in general is considered 'that which is heard' and are considered the Vedas [ from vid or knowledge ]; sruti is revelation on part of the rishis. They the rishi's are known as mantra-drashta or seers (dris) of mantras.

    We know there are 4 Vedas - the Rik, Yajur, Sama and Atharva veda.
    Overall what does the vedas address? 3 areas of life (some say 2 and I will start with the 2) and ones spiritual development:
    Karma Kanda or the action section - Actions of attainment, of yajyas, attaining prosperity here on earth or attaining heaven.
    Jnana Kanda or the knowledge section - the conversion from ignorance to enlightenment.
    Upasana kanda or the sadhana/worship/spiritual sections.

    Each veda has various sections, they are:
    • Samhitia - these are the core mantras that are in the vedas and are hymns in praise to the devata. These samhitia are the hymns that have been cognized by the rishi's in their consciousness. That is one reason they are called sruti - as they are heard, 'seen' by the rishi's within their pure consciousness. So when you think of sruti, and heard - it is the spiritual hearing from within , some say within akashara or the Absolute.So sruti is revelation.

    They have a specific meter (Chandas), author ( rishi some call kavi or poet in this case) and devata ( or the deva the mantra or hymn is addressed to). When people think of the vedas there attention typically go to the Samhitas, yet there are other sections also.
    • Brahmanas - this section of the veda outlines the method of performing yajya's or sacrifices ( Some call homam, havan, agnihomam, puja).
    • Arayankas - or forest books. Texts of philosophical views of the veda that assist one with the concepts offered. They are called the forest books, as it was the knowledge the sadhu took when retiring to the forest.
    • Upanishads - this body of knowledge contains the essence of the Vedas. Vidyas on the essence of the relationship between the sadhu and the Supreme. A I have found the Upanishads and the Aranakas are a bit co-mingled together. The Upanishads are called Vedanta or veda+anta , the end of the vedas or the crescendo.
    Auxiliary or extensions to the Vedas.
    There is additional knowledge and extensions to the 4 Vedas outlined. These are grouped as the Upa-veda and the Vedangas.

    Upa-vedas
    • Ayurveda - or the science of life/longevity or health
    • Dhanurveda - science of war/battle
    • Gandharva veda - science of music/harmony
    • Arthasastra - science of politics and policy
    • Sthapatya Veda called Vastu Vidya - from vastu or the place where people dwell - the science of structures, housing, buildings and the like ~ The use of and framing of akaska
    Vedangas
    The angas or limbs of the Ved (Ved+angas). There are 6 limbs:
    • Siksha and Vyakarana - this work is associated with Panini-muni and deals with proper pronunciation. The Vyakarana deals with Sanskrit grammar and composition. Panini allows one to understand the samhita's of the ved.
    • Chandas - deals with meter or timing . Most notably in chants, one thinks of the sama veda. This is the work of Pingalacharaya.
    • Niruka - is the works of Yaksha muni and he offers the etymology and roots of Vedic/Sanskrit words.
    • Jyotish - this is the science of light; of astrology and astronomy and the works of Gargacharaya.
    • Kalpas - this is the method of rituals called the Kalpha sutras;parts are from the Rig , Sama Yajur ( both white and black), and Atharva Vedas. I do not have much information on this and is a place for discovery and additional reading for me.
    Smriti
    The smriti's stand next in authority to the srutis. Smrti is that which is recalled. The smriti's are considered the Dharma sastras. Some would call theses the regulatory or law giving shastras for codes of conduct.

    The most popular is Manu Smriti some call this the Laws of Manu or the Manava Dharma Sastra. There is also the Yajyavalkya Smriti and Parashara Smriti. These are considered the top 3 with an additional 15 more main smritis from Visnu to Vasishta to Atri and then to Saunka.

    What I find of interest, the smriti are yuga-centric or cycle or era-centric. Certain laws and codes of conduct apply to various levels of society and people.
    • Manu Smriti - Sat Yuga [ dharma is in full blossom]
    • Yajyavalkya Smriti - Treta Yuga [ dharma is 3/4 in bloom]
    • Sankha and Likhita - Dvapara Yuga [ dharma is 1/2 in bloom]
    • Parashara Smriti - Kali [ dharma is 1/4 in bloom ]
    Next post we will do the following:
    • Itihasas - the suhit samhitas or friendly treaties
    • Puranas - belonging to ancient times ; also to pura or fullness; also a class of friendly treaties.
    • Agamas - that which has been handed down: 3 Groups - Vaishnava, saiva and sakta.
    • Darsanas - usually called shad (6) darsana or the 6 systems of Indian philosophy; 6 Views that work in concert to give a full 360° view of knowledge; theses are complimentary and competing philosophies. The 6 are outlined on this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...18&postcount=1
    What should one read first? I have some ideas as will others. Lets list a few out with the next post.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 03 September 2007 at 09:38 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge - part two

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Namaste,

    Continuing the conversation...

    Itihasas - from iti+ha+asa or 'so it was' - another name for history ( from his+story) or that which is recalled, or smrti. These are also called suhit samhitas or friendly treaties i.e. easier reading as they are stories.

    • The most well known are The Ramayana by the sage Valmiki and the Mahabharata by Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa (Veda Vyasa). What is included in the Mahabharata is the Bhagavad Gita (the song of the Lord), a 700 verse , some say 701, conversation between Lord Krsna and Arjuna. It is considered the cream of the vedas. And the Mahabharata is called the 5th veda.
    • The Yoga Vasishta is another treaty of excellent stature. It is the conversation and instruction between the sage Vasistha to Sri Rama. The insights to what the universe is, is insightful. This book is excellent. The author though is debatable. No one I know can say for sure who the author is yet Valmilki is part of the initial conversations.
    • Next is Harivamsa - musch of this work is from two traditions, the panchalak sana or 5 marks of which is vansa or the "genealogy", and stories about the life of Krsna as a herdsman. The book also reviews Krishna's early life presenting him as a tribal hero. I am not familiar with this work and is on my reading list. This is another offering of Veda Vyasa.
    Puranas - belong to ancient times ; also to pura or fullness; A class of friendly treaties. That is, the profound truths found in the Upanishads and perhaps in Vedanta liturature overall is offered to the reader in a more compatable manner. It is said it is simulataniously pleasing to the reader And to the Lord, hense a upanasa.
    • There are 18 main Puranas and an additional 18 subsidiary Puranas called the Upa-Puranas. What is intersting to note the Puranas have 5 characteristics ( some call this pancha-lakshana): a history and story, cosmology with symbols and illistrative principles, creation, genealogy of kings and hence the race, and the manvantaras. The manvantara's define where we are in time e.g. yugas ;

    Who is the author of these treaties? None other then the prolific Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Veda Vyasa). When one thinks of the Puranas, the Srimad Bhagavatam and Visnu Purana come to mind. This Srimad Bhagavatam considers the various avatara ( incarnations) of Visnu on this earth. There are 10 avatara that are recognized yet Srimad Bhagavatam calls out over 20 avatara that have decended to earth [Canto 1.3.4 to 1.3.25].

    • Yet there are many additional Puranas: Skanda Purana, Siva Purana, Linga Purana, Agni Purana, etc. If you divided the 18 up , 6 are Visnu oriented, and additional 6 are Siva oriented and an additional 6 are Brahma oriented.
    Agamas - that which has been handed down: 3 Groups - Vaishnava, Saiva and Sakta.

    These books/treaties are theological works and considered practical manuals for upasana. In the agamas then you will find mantras, Tantric practices, yantras, etc. They address jnana or knowledge, yoga , kriya and charya.
    Much is discussed on moksha, devotion (bhakati), meditation, temple building, image-making, etc.
    • The Vaishnava Agamas are of 4 kinds.
    • The Siva Agamas recognize 28.
    • Sakta Agamas are known as (the) Tantras. It is said there are 77 agamas of Sakta. Wonderful works that are the conversations between Siva and Parvati.
    What is on my reading list from these? Isvara Samhita, Ahibudhnya Samhita, Sanatkumara Samhita, Narada Pancharatra, Spanda Pradipika, a
    nd the Mahanirvana Tanta - they say these are the core workings and most popular readings.

    Darsanas - usually called shad (6) dashara [sight/vision] or the 6 systems of Indian philosophy. I have outlined the six in this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...18&postcount=1 and I think this will meet the need for your review.


    One can see why there is the Ocean of knowledge at ones disposal. Now where to start? If there is interest, we can make this a new post. And I ask for others for their recommendations.

    What is difficult here is no one knows where one is starting their learning and reading from e.g. level of consciousness, undertanding. So there are some offers that will create a nice foundation and we can then go from there…again , I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.

    ...hope this was in some way helpful.

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 30 September 2011 at 09:16 PM. Reason: edits and fixes
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    What is difficult here is no one knows where one is starting their learning and reading from e.g. level of consciousness, undertanding. So there are some offers that will create a nice foundation and we can then go from there…again , I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.

    "You see what you want to see; you hear what you want to hear."
    -the RockMan in Nilsson's "The Point" which was a record and TV special in 1971, about Oblio a round headed kid in a land where everything and everybody had a point, but him. I consider this one of the seminal influences on my world view.



    More generally speaking, it seems to me that we *get* what it is we expect to *get* when reading, studying, etc. So, I'd suggest that the same person, re-reading some text of years past would approach it from a different point of view than before. Thus, I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too.

    Namaste,
    ZN

    Edit to add: Not to mention that in an ocean, when one dives in it's the same ocean no matter what shore characterizes one's approach!
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    -the RockMan in Nilsson's "The Point" which was a record and TV special in 1971, about Oblio a round headed kid in a land where everything and everybody had a point, but him. I consider this one of the seminal influences on my world view.
    More generally speaking, it seems to me that we *get* what it is we expect to *get* when reading, studying, etc. So, I'd suggest that the same person, re-reading some text of years past would approach it from a different point of view than before. Thus, I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too.

    Namaste,
    ZN
    Hello Znanna,
    wondered if your name comes from zenana? I ran across this word as of late and thought of you. It's defined as a location - a part of a home where women are secluded; A term used some time back.

    Any hoo... I know little about 'the point' ( maybe I have one on my head and don't know it ).

    That said, you mention "I think a random order of study is arguably acceptable, too." - Perhaps acceptable, but if one would have given me instruction some 30 years back I would have taken a different approach to my reading road map.

    The way I learn I think is not too different then others ( not sure on this). Yet for this Vedic knowledge, randomness of selected readings gets one into the weeds very quickly without establishing a foundation for understanding.
    Let say one wishes to enter at the Rig Veda , samhita level. While a noble cause indeed, one will scratch their heads saying what is this sonnet/sukta telling me? If you care to I can give you some samples if you care to pick around at it.
    So, perhaps this randomness may work for Itihasas , then yes I concur.

    Look at the HDF conversation on turiya/turya - a very simple state of Being, yet we are perhaps 15 pages deep in this discussion. This is GOOD! as we unfold the fabric of consciousness. Yet some write me from HDF and are not certain of the conversation. This is Okay too. We are developing our understanding, this is the value of this forum.

    That said, what does the wise say? [ For me] coming back to the wisdom of the rishis is of great value.
    A Key sukta in the veda says the following:
    Richo akshare parame vyoman yasmin deva adhi vishve nisheduh,
    Yastanna veda kim richa karishyatiya it tad vidus ta ime samasate.
    (Rk Veda, 1.164.39)

    The Veda or rks, reside in the transcendental field or akshara, of the highest (parame) Being (vyoman) in which reside all the adhi vishve deva's (or impulses of creative intelligence, the laws of Nature), responsible for the whole manifest universe reside. He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him? Those who know this level of reality are established in evenness (samasate or rest contented) , in That ( Tat or Bhuma, fullness-wholeness of life)."

    What does this say in short? Of what use is the ved, for he whom is not becoming established in the Absolute? Where will be the value of this great knowledge other then words... become established in the avyayam (undecaying), the atman, the SELF, sama or even-ness to reap the full value of the knowledge. My teacher just says - knowledge is structured in consciousness.

    This is my orientation...if ones consciousness is not groomed, developed and expanded , then comprehension is not operating at maximum performance. So, many of the readings one engages in grooms this consciousness. Are there other things that cultures/grooms ? Sure ...meditation, devotion, expansion of awareness via the arts, the touch of the guru - shakti put, etc.

    I can say from my personal experience, this is what happens when one reads the Upanishads from a muni that has translated the works from a spiritual orientation, of this there is no doubt in my mind.


    Thank you for the opportunity to express some of my views, and thank you for your post.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 03 September 2007 at 05:52 PM. Reason: spelling
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him?


    "You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear."

    Like I was saying!

    No disrespect intended, but I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?

    If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.


    My name comes from "Z" as in the Zees, a crew of chaotes (mages), appended to I-nanna, as in Inanna, Queen of Heaven. I also like using ZN because it sort of looks like a rotational sigil. Although, your reference isn't too far from the mark, either! Ironically, a search on Znanna also will turn up a Russian pRon star, LOL.

    So, obviously, I'm coming from a different place than "I want to be a Hindu" ... however, I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me as well as new and beautiful expressions of the Holy.



    Namaste,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Red Face Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Hari OM
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    "You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear."

    Like I was saying!

    No disrespect intended, but I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?

    If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.


    My name comes from "Z" as in the Zees, a crew of chaotes (mages), appended to I-nanna, as in Inanna, Queen of Heaven. I also like using ZN because it sort of looks like a rotational sigil. Although, your reference isn't too far from the mark, either! Ironically, a search on Znanna also will turn up a Russian pRon star, LOL.

    So, obviously, I'm coming from a different place than "I want to be a Hindu" ... however, I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me as well as new and beautiful expressions of the Holy.
    Namaste,
    ZN

    Namaste ZN,
    Yes, we have different opinions but I could not outline them...
    Let me for the sake of getting to know each other better poke at few of these notions you mention, okay?
    • You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear.
      Sure, I get this. but is does not suggest you comprehend what you want to comprehend. Let me give you an example - I want to comprehend string theory - that is the first thing that came to my mind typing, ok. I have asked probed, and pondered this 11 dimensional idea. Yet I do not not get it.
      Let me give you a simpler notion. Yesterday my daughter showed me a game and how it works... It was not so complicated, yet I did not 'get it' yet wanted to . Do these conditions change ? Sure over time and the expansion of knowledge and or awareness to get it. But I did not get it, simply 'cause i wanted to ...
    • I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?
      I am not sure of what you are communicating and will ask if you have the time to let me know the point.
    • If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.
      Yes, I concur. The key word for me is 'ready'. Readiness can come from divine intervention, a new set of neurons firing, the 'ahhh ha' experience of the expansion of awareness or insight and it can come from formal learning... I see we are not one micron apart on this notion.
      Yet that said, IMHO it does not suggest a random study of knowledge. Case in point. A child is interested in airplanes, spaceships, flights to Mars, all that cool stuff.
      Put a book in front of him beyond his capacity to comprehend. Say a 5th grader looking a post grad astro-physics info for rocket propulsion. I will bet ya a dollar to a donut he will not be ready to 'get it' till he builds a base line of knowledge. He will enjoy the pictures, and that will bring him some joy - but being 'ready', IMHO means knowledge is structured in consciousness.
      So , based upon that example - help me understand your opinion on this one point - what do you suggest will happen with the 5th grader here? [ standard issue 5th grader , no savants please ]
    • I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me.
      Yes, this is good. Note that my intent is not to constrain anyone on HDF on how to learn or study. My humble offer was to outline the library, and what is available. Never to keep one in the short story section or how to cook section.
    My thoughts here are not that your approach ideas or perspective is wrong, nor mine are better. Its all one of vision and ones orientation. I respect yours, as I do not have the same life experiences that you have.

    Last - cool name and audit trial back to Z.


    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7
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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari OM
    ~~~~~



    Namaste ZN,
    Yes, we have different opinions but I could not outline them...
    Let me for the sake of getting to know each other better poke at few of these notions you mention, okay?
    • You see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear.
      Sure, I get this. but is does not suggest you comprehend what you want to comprehend. Let me give you an example - I want to comprehend string theory - that is the first thing that came to my mind typing, ok. I have asked probed, and pondered this 11 dimensional idea. Yet I do not not get it.
      Let me give you a simpler notion. Yesterday my daughter showed me a game and how it works... It was not so complicated, yet I did not 'get it' yet wanted to . Do these conditions change ? Sure over time and the expansion of knowledge and or awareness to get it. But I did not get it, simply 'cause i wanted to ...
    I am of the opinion that comprehension is more a matter of acceptance than of analysis, but perhaps that is because I'm a girl. My process is nebulous versus a directed approach, in other words.

    I understand string theory in terms of my experience of meditational practice, although I could parse the statistics if I had some time to kill - actually nonlinear statistics (fractal statistics) I have studied as offshoot to philosophy. I'm sure I view Sanskrit much differently than most Hindus, as to me it is a formulary of expression quite similar to math but describing phenomena of a different ilk.

    And, not for nothing, but if you'd PLAYED that game with your daughter, I bet you'd have gotten it.

    • I've seen posts on a board devoted (bless them) to the study of the Shakta hymns enquiring as to good sources for studying yoga (usually to attain siddhis)! Hello?
      I am not sure of what you are communicating and will ask if you have the time to let me know the point.
    What I'm saying is that the Shakta hymns are probably the BEST specific sources for these things, to my eye ... yet some don't see forest for trees. JMO.

    • If someone is ready to "get it", they will, IMO, regardless of what their study of the moment may be.
      Yes, I concur. The key word for me is 'ready'. Readiness can come from divine intervention, a new set of neurons firing, the 'ahhh ha' experience of the expansion of awareness or insight and it can come from formal learning... I see we are not one micron apart on this notion.
      Yet that said, IMHO it does not suggest a random study of knowledge. Case in point. A child is interested in airplanes, spaceships, flights to Mars, all that cool stuff.
      Put a book in front of him beyond his capacity to comprehend. Say a 5th grader looking a post grad astro-physics info for rocket propulsion. I will bet ya a dollar to a donut he will not be ready to 'get it' till he builds a base line of knowledge. He will enjoy the pictures, and that will bring him some joy - but being 'ready', IMHO means knowledge is structured in consciousness.
      So , based upon that example - help me understand your opinion on this one point - what do you suggest will happen with the 5th grader here? [ standard issue 5th grader , no savants please ]
    If a 5th grader had expressed an interest in post grad astro-physics, he probably gets more out of those pictures than you give credit for~


    I am quite intent on my study of Sanskrit and have found many analogs for forms already familiar to me.
    Yes, this is good. Note that my intent is not to constrain anyone on HDF on how to learn or study. My humble offer was to outline the library, and what is available. Never to keep one in the short story section or how to cook section.
    My thoughts here are not that your approach ideas or perspective is wrong, nor mine are better. Its all one of vision and ones orientation. I respect yours, as I do not have the same life experiences that you have.

    I don't think that defining a particular approach to study is appropriate, with the exception of the personal relationship with a Master. Additionally, I think that the process of understanding is unique to each person, and that no limits of interpretation should be made, within a sense of polite propriety.



    Last - cool name and audit trial back to Z.

    Thanks


    pranams,

    Namaste,
    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    Namaste,

    And, not for nothing, but if you'd PLAYED that game with your daughter, I bet you'd have gotten it.

    I don't think that defining a particular approach to study is appropriate


    ZN
    Namste ZN,
    This is the chicken and egg scenario - my daughter tried to explain the game so I could play! To my chagrin my pea brain could not wrap my understanding around the concept... I still tried, yet to no avail. Hence your advice, albeit warmly received, does not bear results... I did not get it by trying. I am a big fan of Show-tell-do yet in this case when it came to 'do' I didn't! - I will try again.

    Defining a particular approach is inappropriate .... sure, but I dis-agree.
    That said, one must consider youth learning, or pre-teen, young adult, adult , or seasoned adult. Even that said, this has not been my intent. Remember I am pointing to the Library - not pushing noses into a book .

    [ fyi only - my orientation comes from designing , implementing and teaching courses in college and in corp. america - maybe I am blemished, eh? ]

    It is up to the person to choose - this is always the case , even when a method of learning is offered e.g. Socratic, Collaborative, Cooperative, Problem based, Discovery based, etc. ones abilities, penchant to learn, skills and abilities, etc, need to be considered.

    Thank you for the banter and voicing your beliefs and opinions - they are valuable.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 September 2007 at 10:50 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Post Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Namaste Yajvan and Znanna,

    I can see value in a random approach, but ones mind must always remain open. And with such an open mind, the apparently random search is soon found to be mysteriously guided.

    Despite the apparent diversity (just like the manifest universe), there is in truth only one topic being discussed ~ the brahman (the truth of all truths).

    It is impossible to properly name or describe the one absolute transcendent Being ~ the one God of all monotheistic religion ~ but, from the dualistic perspective of the Creation, this One has always appeared as a veritable Twin.

    Nothing can be spoken about the ultimate brahman (brahma or nara); but everything is spoken about his son (brahmA or nArAyaNa) who is himself twain and prone to multiplication ~ as brahmA-brAhmI, and then again as the triguNa, and then as nArAyaNa-nAra and nAra-nArI (etc.).

    And all of the major controversies in the interpretation of dharma basically revolve around different perceptions of the Twin (variously known as yama, ashvinau, naranArAyaNa, vidyAvidya, etc.).

    How many individuals in an identical conjoined twin? The answer will depend entirely on ones individual perspective!

    The thread on turya-turIya is entirely regarding the Twin, whose identity and nature is the ultimate subject (and object) of all spiritual discussion (and confusion). For some it has been a romp in the garden of eidenai, and for others perhaps more of a leap into the vortex (especially if Sanskrit is not understood).

    In Greek, eidenai is the perfect infinitive of the root id (literally to have seen), and in this field of pure knowledge there is an eternal pair in a fertile tree (the tree of life). And at the very top of this tree there is one unreachable (and unbelievably sweet) fruit. The only one who would dare to consume that sweet poison must be its rightful possessor (i.e. the silent witness to the mortal feast ~ aditi or nirRti, who is only shiva) and She is the unborn Eve (recreated in mans image by man himself).

    I have repeatedly climbed to the top of this sacred tree, and held out the star at its peak ~ generally 5-pointed for brahma, and 6-pointed for brahmA (although odd numbers above and even numbers below is the rule) ~ and the 4-pointed stars are the manifest riches that are already strewn all about. But still there are those who dont get it!

    There is much information on mythic relations packed into the turya-turIya thread, and especially in the various lines of equation that I have drawn. These are veritable sutras (fragments of the genetic code) for constructing and deconstructing the extended mythology and philosophy of yama (which is the basic theme of sanatana dharma).

    If one still doesnt get the point, or get how to get to the point, then it would perhaps be a good idea to read the whole thread again (with a good Sanskrit dictionary on hand).

    As for where to start in reading the scriptures, well, that really depends on ones own starting point and what it is that one is actually seeking! It is all there in the ocean of wisdom, and one can either follow the trail of scattered jewels, or head straight for the treasure trove ~ and the best advice for the true path can only come from ones own Guru.

    Atanu has rightly stressed the simple quest for the I, but for most it remains hidden.

    The turya brahma, alone and advaita, eternally resounds only am.
    The turIya brahmA, together with mAyA, at the moment of creation, says I am.
    And the turIyAtIta brAhma, in samAdhi, says I am brahman.

    The common threads are the turya, the brahman, and am (the first person singular of be ~ i.e. pure existence, without any name, and even without any sense of I).

    The I is explicit in the I am of brahmA, although in the first person singular state (i.e. brahma) it is unknown but very strongly implied. And it is this grammatical implication of existence (the very idea or concept of being) that provides the inexplicable urge for creating and naming diversity.

    I truly am I am and [ I ] am , and all would be wise to remember the immortal inspiration of this ultimate Truth.

    The dualistic 6-star people have usually outgunned the monistic 5-star people on the material plane, but despite their devotion to God (i.e. brahmA) they generally have no idea that the highest 5-star God (brahma) even exists.

    The followers of the Son of God (i.e. nArAyaNa) have indeed named the ancient Mother of God (the essential unborn matrix of divine conceptions ~ the brahmayoni) as Satan and expelled Her from Heaven! Thus, the apparent monism of Christianity is only a small fraction of the truly monistic Sanatana Dharma. And Islam is an example of 5-star (advaita) philosophy largely in the hands of 6-star (dvaita) apologists. And the immortality of all such disguised dualism will certainly fade, unless so-called Satan is restored to the God-head.

    Still none of this may make much sense to those who have been indoctrinated for generations with an idea of divinity that is only one quarter (or at best one half) of the total picture ~ and that is perhaps the greatest obstacle to understanding the discourse of Sanatana Dharma.

    And the chicken and egg scenario is a perfect analogy for understanding the Twin!

    I wish you all a brace of partridge in a tree of pairs !!

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    Re: An Ocean of Knowledge...

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Yajvan and Znanna,

    Still none of this may make much sense to those who have been indoctrinated for generations with an idea of divinity that is only one quarter (or at best one half) of the total picture ~ and that is perhaps the greatest obstacle to understanding the discourse of Sanatana Dharma.
    Namaste sarabhanga (et.al)
    as usual you add value.... the conclusion is of great import ( above)...
    Many are gettting comfortable with the notion of the truth. We are even warned to avoid bringing up Brahman to those that are not ready for it. So a delicate subject for some, and a comforting subject for others.

    This has been my most difficult point to communicate... we need to be caring and undersanding of others that are coming along. For others that are on the ride, enjoying the scenery, all is well and good. Yet many perhaps need a lay of the land.

    So, if ZN is of the opinion randomness is best - it may be the best approach for her. Yet for others ( in mass) it may not. This is fine and I repsect her views.

    This I think is the offer at HDF is how to throttle the conversations so there is benefit to all that are here to read, understand, ponder. And for some that only wish to window shop.

    Our offers are not 'spandex' to have one size fit all. So, various conversations to help, assist, poke and ponder is ( for me) an offering we perhaps can consider. And this is based upon knowledge, reading, personal experiences, all have a say to expand ones horizons.

    If one comes just to take, then it will be an empty forum. Flexibility and adaptability is a spiritual quality, minimizing rigid thinking and the like. This does not happen by chance, but by having dormant neurons fire!Expanding ones vision of possibilities. I found this to be accelerated by ones reading, thinking and experience...

    Knowledge is for action and achievement, ultimately Fulfillment of the individual. So what one reads, ponders, acts on, experiences, is all part of the ride. How one does this e.g. sequentially or randomly is a matter of personal preference.

    NET NET: If one does not know what to be random of, to be sequential in, where does one start? This is the genesis of this string. What does the field of reading look like to choose from? Yet from some curious reason we ended up in left filed on how one wishes to read, interesting but a personal preference.

    IMHO Moksha is just a millisecond away when the right stimulus, the right environment is there to be offered to the sadhu that makes ' Aahh Haa !!' happen. What if its just one idea, one thought away? and that by His Grace is in that one book you have been itching to read, or the one you did not think even existed?

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 September 2007 at 10:48 AM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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