An Ocean of Knowledge...

[saidevo]

Namaste Sarabhanga, Yajvan, Satay, ZN, Atanu, Nuno and everyone else.

While we are all discussing a reading plan for our Hindu Scriptures, Nuno has tested Sarabhanga's recommendation by a quick reading and found it accurate and illuminating in the path to Self discovery!

So Satay has proved a point: that Sarabhanga's concise commendations of truths are useful for at least one person in HDFpuri. They are of immense value for me personally, packed like the light in a gem that you can pocket in your mind and look at and admire in your leisure for better understanding. The air of finally in them is different and refreshing from what we see in the teachings of other gurus.

And that's it, Sarabhanga. We are all blessed to have a Sadhu like you devote some time (however much it be) for the spiritual advancement of neophytes like me and in many ways you are a guru here in HDFpuri. Please do continue your writings in HDF whatever it costs you personally/spiritually.

Now, of the major upanishads, you have mentioned only five. Would you please classify the study of the other parts of the Vedas, and then the Smriti for a reading approach? Where does the Gita figure in the five stages? It seems that the six darshanas can fall nicely into the five levels of consciousness their study may be structured in?

It would be helpful if advanced souls like Yajvan, Atanu and others describe what they read and in what order and what other measures they adopted to reach their current levels.

[satay]

Namaste all,

Actually, I don't really understand what happened on this thread. This probably because Yajvan, I and others have had conversations along the lines of 'helping new comers to sanatana dharma that come to HDF'. The first two posts are made in that spirit and context i.e. to help those who are new comers to the study of hinduism.

Case in point, myself, I am new to hinduism, aside from the very little I know from family there is nothing academically I know. So when I read the original two posts, I see a nice 'reference point' to come back to when I need to check what exists academically for a student of hinduism.

Sarabhanga has suggested a nice clear cut path of what to study and how to start for the new comer which was the second step that yajvan was going to offer in another post. This is a continuation of the original conversation isn't it? IMHO the spirit of the posts are not lost, we are simply and naturally at the next step...

isn't it? or am I missing something?

and for some like myself and ZN random readings are the best...but for me at least in this randomness there seems to be a mysterious pattern...

[sarabhanga]

From your posts I would not have considered the formulaic offerings as a suggested reading list,

e.g. ONE ~ vaishvAnara = aitareya (upaniSad).

I am in hopes others see this as a potential list to consider.

Namaste Yajvan,

In a thread that begins with:

There is much to read. I liken it to walking into a library for the fist time and seeing all the books.

Where does one start? Fiction ? Non-Fiction? The sciences? Perhaps it makes sense to layout the library so one can then pick and choose where one might want to investigate.

What should one read first?

Now where to start?

I ask others for their recommendations.

I look to others for their recommendations on this matter.

In such a thread, how could one NOT expect to find a suggested reading list?

I prefer not to post anything superfluous, and ALL of the words that I do post actually mean something.

ONE ~ aitareya
TWO ~ bRhadAraNyaka
THREE ~ chAndogya
FOUR ~ mANDUkya
FIVE ~ Isha

Such a list could ONLY be referring to the upaniSada!

Look at the HDF conversation on turiya/turya - a very simple state of Being, yet we are perhaps 15 pages deep in this discussion, as we unfold the fabric of consciousness.

Yet some write me from HDF and are not certain of the conversation.

So I brought in the idea of progressing through levels of consciousness, collecting and arranging the most important ideas from the turIya thread to better illuminate the often repeated sequence.

This is my orientation...if ones consciousness is not groomed, developed and expanded, then comprehension is not operating at maximum performance.

Exactly so! And that is why the appropriate frame of mind for each level of consciousness was also given.

I could not honestly answer today if the smoke has cleared, what conclusions have been assessed.

There was never any smoke, in my eyes, and from my first post until the last there was never any change in my view.

This is basically where I began:

turya is �the 4th�, and especially �the 4th state of the soul�. And turya also refers to �being in the 4th state of soul�.

turIya means �of 4 parts�, and it indicates �the 4th state of spirit (pure impersonal spirit or brahma)�. And turIya also refers to �being in the 4th state of soul�.

Whichever term is used, we must be careful to distinguish the 4th state itself from the various grades of experiencing or being in that state. For one who is entirely immersed in the turya state, there is surely no difference, but for discussion we must recognize these two aspects of meaning.

Shri Gaudapada used turya when referring to the absolute �4th�, so perhaps the term turIya should be reserved for �being in the 4th state of soul�.

In which case, the turIya could indeed be described as a �bridge� to the turya.

And, while the nature of turya is beyond cetana, the experience of turIya certainly involves cetana.

The �3rd state� of Consciousness is known as prAj�a, and the genitive (�of the 3rd state�) is prAj�asya.

The Aitareyopanishad, however, uses the term pra-j�Ana (�great knowledge or wisdom�) and the genitive praj�Anasya (�of great wisdom�).

praj�A (�wisdom�) is the basis of the world. Verily, praj�Ana (�great wisdom�) is brahma.

As �deep sleep�, prAj�a is pra-aj�a (�very unconscious�), and this is different to the �great intelligence� of pra-j�A.

turya = praj�A = brahma

Immersed in turIya (as brahmA) one experiences praj�A but appears to be prAj�a.

turIya (or being in turya) happens in prAj�a, but it is the �bridge� to turya.

From the perspective of both turya and turIya, however, prAj�a and praj�A (like the opposites of vidyA and avidyA) are one and the same.

turIya is a veritable bridge to turya.

prAj�a is a veritable bridge to praj�A.

brahmA is a veritable bridge to brahma.

And before ANY particular aspect of absolute Consciousness is dissected and described we must already have distinguished these identical Twins.

And this is basically where I finished:

The turya is first, and remains always one, undivided.

The turIya is second, and undergoes self division ~ 2/2 or 3/3 or 7/7 (etc.).

The creative formula is �1/1 divided by 3/3 remains equal to 1�.

God is eternally unified, and yet always triple in expression ~ and 1 + 3 = 4.

And in ajAtivAda, only the turya exists as an intrinsic eternal verity.


brahman exists.

brahman is unborn and eternal.

brahman is one, alone, but apparently twain (as yama).

There is nothing beyond brahma (the parabrahman or brahmayoni).


brahma = pa�camukha = parabrahman = aditi = �[ I ] am� = ekapAda = brahmayoni = sahasrAkshara = hRdayAkAsha
brahmA = caturmukha = brahman = Aditya = �I am� = tripAda = brahmabIja= akshara = AkAsha


So let us consider the apparent divergence of brahma and brahmA:

brahmA from brahma = a
Aditya from aditi = aa or aya
In brahmA there is motivation and active breath, while in brahma everything is silent and fixed.

caturmukha from pa�camukha = ekamukha
tripAda from ekapAda = dvipAda
brahmA appears with one face and two legs (i.e. in the image of man), while brahma remains indescribable.

brahman from parabrahman = para
akshara from sahasrAkshara = sahasra
brahma is exceeding and infinite, while brahmA is limited and finite.

I am from [ I ] am = [ ]
brahma is known only by implication, whereas brahmA is explicit.

bIja from yoni = nirRti
brahma is remains unbounded and sterile, while brahmA is ever fertile and repeatedly divided.

AkAsha from hRdayAkAsha = hRdaya
brahmA is the mortal frame, while brahma is the immortal heart.

NOTHING has changed in my assessment of grammar, and no gender has been re-assigned! The rest of the thread was only absorbing objections or clarifying apparent ommissions, and all of the expansions and variations remain entirely consistent with the same theme.

My orientation is to offer HDF various ideas, thoughts, perspectives to stimulate interest, and perhaps by His grace an 'ahhh ha' or two for ones advancement may occur. If this is not valuable, then maybe its time for me to go sell earth shoes again!

Awaken people's curiosity. It is enough to open minds, do not overload them. Put there just a spark. ... Anatole France

You have been doing an excellent job of stimulating interest and discussion, and I must apologize for having not yet followed up on some of your important leads.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste all,

Actually, I don't really understand what happened on this thread. This probably because Yajvan, I and others have had conversations along the lines of 'helping new comers to sanatana dharma that come to HDF'.

Case in point, myself, I am new to hinduism, aside from the very little I know from family there is nothing academically I know. So when I read the original two posts, I see a nice 'reference point' to come back to when I need to check what exists academically for a student of hinduism.

Sarabhanga has suggested a nice clear cut path of what to study and how to start for the new comer which was the second step that yajvan was going to offer in another post.

From Saidevo
Now, of the major upanishads, you have mentioned only five. Would you please classify the study of the other parts of the Vedas, and then the Smriti for a reading approach? Where does the Gita figure in the five stages? It seems that the six darshanas can fall nicely into the five levels of consciousness their study may be structured in?

It would be helpful if advanced souls like Yajvan, Atanu and others describe what they read and in what order and what other measures they adopted to reach their current levels.

From sarabhanga
Originally Posted by Yajvan
I could not honestly answer today if the smoke has cleared, what conclusions have been assessed.

There was never any smoke, in my eyes, and from my first post until the last there was never any change in my view.


Namste all,
Thank you for posting your observations and positions...

Satay, what you say has been my intent from the first post, I am happy that the post has some residual value.

Saidevo, I will be happy to post some of the reading material as reference points.

Sarabahanga - thank you for your reply and your initial reading recommedations.
My rebuttals on this matter has always been that of my experience and speaking honestly. I am happy no smoke was your eyes, yet in mine, and still not cleared away. How so? Reading a post does not guarantee comprehension - even with the best intent from the author. That is the orientation of my feedback to you. If others got many of the posts with crystal clarity of mind, then I know I am in good company and will need to wait for my comprehension to catch up.


So now I think we can move on with the notion here. - What ever reading recommendations are given it's about the content that one may be able to enjoy and hopefully comprehend. That which is not comprehended is a good HDF post for discussion.

Hence one may recommend a reading sequence but its not about reading order - that is, if one chooses to read backwards or upside down ( sukracharaka's tapas) , then that is a matter of choice - So is the wisdom of those responses to this string up to now.


All men by nature desire knowledge ...Aristotle


pranams and am happy we can move on,

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Yajvan,

One may recommend a reading sequence but its not about reading order - that is, if one chooses to read backwards or upside down (sukracharaka's tapas) , then that is a matter of choice - So is the wisdom of those responses to this string up to now.

All men by nature desire knowledge ...Aristotle

We can move on.

Hold your horses!

When one is browsing the whole library, an intelligently guided “random” approach is valuable. But when a teacher offers a specialized course, it would be foolish indeed to think it might be a good idea to consider the final year’s text first and then gradually work back to the first year!

When one is reading a thriller, the best thrill comes when you save the last chapter for last!

If one is currently in the turIya mind, then full benefit will be gained from the IsopaniSad, but not otherwise.

The entry level consciousness for all aspirants is vaishvAnara, so it would be wise to begin at the beginning!

I am sure that you have read these upaniSada before, but I doubt that the suggested course has been properly followed.

The curriculum is ancient and unfailing ~ known to shrI shaMkarAcArya and gauDapAda, to the veda-vyAsa, and to shrI kRSNa himself!

Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

The aitareya is perfect wisdom for brahmacarya.
The bRhadAraNyaka is perfect wisdom for gRhastha.
The chAndogya is perfect wisdom for vAnaprastha.
The mANDUkya is perfect wisdom for saMnyAsa.
And the Isha is perfect wisdom for avadhUta.

This is a life-time course, with a life-guarantee ~ but it is a guided and gradual progression with certain expectations and assumed obligations that should NOT be taken lightly!

It is a short-cut through the maze, but the rate of progress depends on individual circumstance and capacity.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,


Hold your horses!

When one is browsing the whole library, an intelligently guided “random” approach is valuable. But when a teacher offers a specialized course, it would be foolish indeed to think it might be a good idea to consider the final year’s text first and then gradually work back to the first year!

When one is reading a thriller, the best thrill comes when you save the last chapter for last!

If one is currently in the turIya mind, then full benefit will be gained from the IsopaniSad, but not otherwise.

The entry level consciousness for all aspirants is vaishvAnara, so it would be wise to begin at the beginning!

I am sure that you have read these upaniSada before, but I doubt that the suggested course has been properly followed.

The curriculum is ancient and unfailing ~ known to shrI shaMkarAcArya and gauDapAda, to the veda-vyAsa, and to shrI kRSNa himself!

Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.

The aitareya is perfect wisdom for brahmacarya.
The bRhadAraNyaka is perfect wisdom for gRhastha.
The chAndogya is perfect wisdom for vAnaprastha.
The mANDUkya is perfect wisdom for saMnyAsa.
And the Isha is perfect wisdom for avadhUta.

This is a life-time course, with a life-guarantee ~ but it is a guided and gradual progression with certain expectations and assumed obligations that should NOT be taken lightly!

It is a short-cut through the maze, but the rate of progress depends on individual circumstance and capacity.

Namaste sarabhanga,
to what you say, Amen...

this , I believe, you have articulated better then I could have.
I cannot put the cake in the oven until I mix the ingredients...


this IMHO opinion has been my orientation [ the logic of some order, and choosing what part of the 'library' fits the persons need at their point of developent in life] ]. Yet for some reason (rahu influences) the words did not land on two feet.

thank you and hope others will consider the wisdom offered,

pranams,

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~


Namaste,

One other point worth considering... as sarabhanga has pointed out 5 most important Upanishads, we all hear of an ocean of them.
As I look at my book shelve I see a collection 112. Why bring this up?

One key is the wisdom of Veda Vyasa and his Brahma Sutras. Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Ved Vyas) only discussed 13 principle Upanishads in his works. That was his selection and he is the final authority in my eyes i.e. he only needed the 13 to bring out and resolve all the truth with regard to Brahman.

Yet we hear of 112, 108, etc etc. Being the right number. We look to those realized beings for guidance. As sarabhanga succinctly pointed out the 5 these are the benchmarks and are part of the 13.
They are:

• Isa
• Kena
• Katha
• Prasna
• Mundaka
• Manduka [ I added this to the list - I had inadvertently just missed this great work on the first posting ]
• Aitareya
• Taittiriya
• Chandogya
• Brihadaranakya
• Kaushitaki
• Svetasvatara
• Maitrayani

This is beautiful wisdom...these all come from various parts of the ved ( White and Back Yajur Ved, Sama Ved, Rik, etc etc). Please consider sarabhanga's starting points from his post.

So, how many potential Upanishads are there? As many Sakhas or branches , some call recensions. But how many? Well, the Rig Ved has 21 recentions, 109 for Yajur Ved, 1000 for Sama Ved and 50 for Atharva Ved = 1,180. Or a perfect 10; 1+1+8+0 = 10: the sum of the digits of 1,180. This 10 says Fullness of the Relative field of life = 1, and Fullenss of the Absolute level of life or 0. This 10 is the Fullness of Saguna + Nirguna = Brahman.

Then I would recommend the Bhagavad Gia - why so? it gives you the total lay of the land, condensed in 700 verses.

What remains to be ascertained... Am I a casual reader? or am I motivated to study this work. A question you will have to answer. Why so? IMHO and experience, reading one book from one author does not do the Gita justice.

If you have interest many on this forum can recommend several. I have several worth pondering.

Such is the wisdom we are considering in the Ocean of Knowledge, in the 'Library' ... and good reading to you.

pranams,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste,

---One key is the wisdom of Veda Vyasa and his Brahma Sutras. Krsna Dwaipayana Vyasa ( Ved Vyas) only discussed 13 principle Upanishads in his works. --- We look to those realized beings for guidance. As sarabhanga succinctly pointed out the 5 these are the benchmarks and are part of the 13.
They are:

• Isa
• Kena
• Katha
• Prasna
• Mundaka
• Aitareya
• Taittiriya
• Chandogogya
• Brihadaranakya
• Kaushitaki
• Svetasvatara
• Maitrayani

--pranams,

Well, Mandukya (from sarabhanga ji's 5) is missing in the above list of 13. And Svetasvatara is missing from the five. Any light on this? Muktika Upanishad on the other hand, says that Mandukya is enough to attain Kaivalya and if Mandukya is not comprehended then a prescription for study of 10 Upanishads is given.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Well, Mandukya (from sarabhanga ji's 5) is missing in the above list of 13. And Svetasvatara is missing from the five. Any light on this? Muktika Upanishad on the other hand, says that Mandukya is enough to attain Kaivalya and if Mandukya is not comprehended then a prescription for study of 10 Upanishads is given.

Om

Namate Atanu and Adhikarin's,
I missed Manduka Upanishad, oooopps! How can I miss my favorite? ( the list was 12 without it) - so I edited the post and Added it back in...
Let me do this - offer a reasonble post on this...so I will do some mimamasa ( investigation) to compare and contrast the list; How so ? Some say Adi Shankara had a list of 10 or eleven that he commented on, then some add a few more. I want to make sure where they align and where they do not. Some find Vyasa's work on the core 10 to 13 Upanishads, some add in the Bhagavad gita also to this list Vyyasa uses as the base for the Sutras.

Let me also add-in a bit of info on Brahama Sutras, some call Nyaya prasthana as you know, or the a logical starting point of Vednata. This will give us some substantial subject matter for discussion.

What I find always interesting is Vyasa's brilliance to connect the dots. We know this work contains 4 Adhyayas ( canto's or chapters) - 16 Padas or sections and the 555 sutras. This is of important to me as a reminder, this 16 padas. This points to Prasna Upanishad and the 16 parts, Purusha's shodasakala or 16 parts. We find this in the 3rd section of this Upanishad as Shashta Prasna.

We know He is not in 'parts' yet it is a vidya, a way of appreciating this Purusha for contemplation.


more in a bit,

pranams,

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~


Let me do this - offer a reasonble post on this...so I will do some mimamasa ( investigation) to compare and contrast the list; How so ? Some say Adi Shankara had a list of 10 or eleven that he commented on, then some add a few more. I want to make sure where they align and where they do not. Some find Vyasa's work on the core 10 to 13 Upanishads, some add in the Bhagavad gita also to this list Vyyasa uses as the base for the Sutras.

Let me also add-in a bit of info on Brahama Sutras, some call Nyaya prasthana as you know, or the a logical starting point of Vednata. This will give us some substantial subject matter for discussion.

pranams,

Namaste,
Keeping my commitment on this, the following HDF Post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...5825#post15825 , Post 1 and post 2 offers a perspective and insight on the Brahma sutras and Upanishads.

pranams,