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Thread: Are we worshiping the same God ?

  1. #11

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    I was never talking of humans being treated as gods. A human who still has the individual ego cannot be god. Something worshipped is either a true worship ( if it is a devatA or the supreme principle) or no worship( in the case of ghosts or David Koresh).

    David Koresh is simply an imposter. The term 'imposter god' is out of place.
    He is the one on whom our hope depends. For if Hanuman survives, all we though dead are yet alive. But if his precious life be lost though living still we are but dead: He is our hope and sure relief -Jambavan (Yuddha Kanda. 74). Impossibility=Hanuman

  2. #12

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yajnavalkya dasa View Post
    There are many who claim to be the Supreme God.
    I agree with this. It would seem that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims elevated their regional/tribal gods to the position of 'supreme God'.

    Though I'm not Hindu myself, I share the belief in Brahman as being above all regional gods with their cultural trappings and dogmas.

  3. #13

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achanda View Post
    I agree with this. It would seem that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims elevated their regional/tribal gods to the position of 'supreme God'.

    Though I'm not Hindu myself, I share the belief in Brahman as being above all regional gods with their cultural trappings and dogmas.
    Is there any good reason to beleive that God is a 'private property' of Hindus or that Vishnu incarnates only in this small part of the world known as India? If this can be beleived, then it is not much better than the "cultural trappings and dogmas" of other nations.

    It is reasonable to argue that God has revealed himself to all people in the world in all sorts of ways, in accordance with time and need. A religion or its god by itself is not a dogma, but its interpretation by some fanatic followers maybe so.

    How can the Hindu God, the Christian God and the Islamic God be different from each other in effect, if each of them beleives that their God created the universe? Yes, the understanding of kAla Brahman need not be the same for everybody, though it does not mean that these gods are different.

    Different mental perspectives of human beings demand different philosophical ideas. Some people cannot really grasp the idea of a transcendendal and immanent idea of Godhead. They think that God becomes stained due to contact with matter, forgetting that God sets all the laws of nature and nothing can stain him. Such people are taught that God sits somewhere high in the sky and looks after them - this is also one of the ways to understand God and nothing is really wrong about it. Such ideas of God are regional, but the God himself is always the supreme one.
    He is the one on whom our hope depends. For if Hanuman survives, all we though dead are yet alive. But if his precious life be lost though living still we are but dead: He is our hope and sure relief -Jambavan (Yuddha Kanda. 74). Impossibility=Hanuman

  4. #14

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    I don't think it's reasonable to say that we're worshipping the same god, for even within H'ism, the very idea of god varies from one school to another.

    In dvaita, god is worshipped as a person with auspicious qualities, not as an abstract principle, a mass of sat, chit, ananda. God is a Person, the Supreme Person. Advaitins, on the other hand, consider God to be nirguna, thus differing from the dvaitins in this respect. And there are still others, who consider both personal and impersonal to be real, such as the Gaudiyas.

    As one can see, there are differences with respect to the nature of God, even within H'ism. So while it may be PC to say 'we all worship the same god', it certainly is an absurd proposition.

    Suresh

  5. #15

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    I don't think it's reasonable to say that we're worshipping the same god, for even within H'ism, the very idea of god varies from one school to another.

    In dvaita, god is worshipped as a person with auspicious qualities, not as an abstract principle, a mass of sat, chit, ananda. God is a Person, the Supreme Person. Advaitins, on the other hand, consider God to be nirguna, thus differing from the dvaitins in this respect. And there are still others, who consider both personal and impersonal to be real, such as the Gaudiyas.

    As one can see, there are differences with respect to the nature of God, even within H'ism. So while it may be PC to say 'we all worship the same god', it certainly is an absurd proposition.

    Suresh
    Suresh,

    I think you got it wrong. Though advaitins consider God to be nirguNa, they do not worship the nirguNa brahman, as NB is not an object of worship. So, the god worshipped by advaitins is the same as dvaita which is a being with all auspicious qualities.

    This is not a PC view from the POV of an advaitin, but easy to reconcile since differences are merely perspective oriented. Yes, the dvaitins ( the thousands of type of dvaitins in the world) will stick with their own prototypes of God, each claiming to be in possession of knowledge of the true god. Which one of the zillion gods of dvaitins is the true god? If you can answer this, I will give this to you...
    He is the one on whom our hope depends. For if Hanuman survives, all we though dead are yet alive. But if his precious life be lost though living still we are but dead: He is our hope and sure relief -Jambavan (Yuddha Kanda. 74). Impossibility=Hanuman

  6. #16

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhavan View Post
    Suresh,

    I think you got it wrong. Though advaitins consider God to be nirguNa, they do not worship the nirguNa brahman, as NB is not an object of worship. So, the god worshipped by advaitins is the same as dvaita which is a being with all auspicious qualities.
    So you agree that the concept of God is different in both dvaita and advaita. That's all I wanted to stress.

    Which one of the zillion gods of dvaitins is the true god? If you can answer this, I will give this to you...
    Which means you imply there are zillion different concepts of god even amongst dvaitins. If that be the case, how can anyone claim we're all worshipping the same god?

    Suresh

  7. #17

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    So you agree that the concept of God is different in both dvaita and advaita. That's all I wanted to stress.
    The fact that the concept of God is different does not establish we are talking of different gods. A person maybe wearing dhoti at home, he maybe dressed in formals at work, and wearing casuals while shopping. Does this change the identity of the person? We cannot say any one of them is wrong either. Advaita is looking at God in his pristine intrinsic nature, which is pure Ananda, and nothing else. Dvaita is viewing at God in his role as the creator of the universe while wearing a number of attributes associated with his creation. These are not different concepts of god, but different angles of looking at the same god.


    Quote Originally Posted by suresh
    Which means you imply there are zillion different concepts of god even amongst dvaitins. If that be the case, how can anyone claim we're all worshipping the same god?

    Suresh
    The answer is the same as above. Different concepts of god do not establish different gods. The indescribable God can be described in many ways. Do you notice that even though there are many religions, all these gods are associated with many common attributes like creatorship, omniscience etc? If there are many gods, how can there be multiple creators? If you think there is one supreme god, claiming that only your version god is the supreme is a pure dogma. Otherwise you are a polytheist who beleives in many gods.
    He is the one on whom our hope depends. For if Hanuman survives, all we though dead are yet alive. But if his precious life be lost though living still we are but dead: He is our hope and sure relief -Jambavan (Yuddha Kanda. 74). Impossibility=Hanuman

  8. #18
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    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by suresh View Post
    So you agree that the concept of God is different in both dvaita and advaita. That's all I wanted to stress.
    Suresh
    Namste Suresh,
    I hope it is Okay to join this conversation? If you are too far along on this matter let me know and I will set on the sidelines. That said, IMHO your assessment is correct.. the concept of God is different. That is why there are ~4,300 different faith groups on this planet.

    Now the question is, what makes sense to you? what resonates with you?

    There is a tendency for folks to say, my way is the best, my God is the True God. This is small-small thinking. This is why, I believe Sanatana Dharma is so robust. It has solid roots, and is very tolerant of other views.

    Yet if you pushed me, I would be hard pressed to say Sanatana Dharma is 'religion' as people talk of it today... but is Arsa Dharma, the way of the rishis. Even this can then be bifurcated to view as Pravritti Dharma and Nivrtti Dharma. The former as performance and religious merit the lead to worldly happiness and heaven, and the later to Moksha.
    Yet in the final analysis , for me, this term religion in its most pure state is a beautiful word and not that of dogma:

    Religion is from latin, ligare to 'bind, connect' and re (again) + ligare.To again bind and connect. But to what? to the Source. And it is the conversation of this Source that gets many people's underwear into a bind!
    - God is me
    - God is separate then me
    - I am his servant, therefore there must be two, the Adored and the adorer
    - I dissolve into HIM and become ALL
    - There is no God, there is no me , all this is the Absolute
    - God is love
    - God is consciousness
    - God IS
    - etc.

    It is by our discrimination (viveka) that we work though all this information. And for that, there have been people smarter then us ( well, at least me) that have thought about this matter. We are blessed to view the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy to help us get a POV. This helps. What compliments this work is the Upanishads, shastras, and agamas.

    Yet with all this, they [ book knowledge, even the vedas] are of no more use than is a small well in a place flooded with water on every side - Bhagavad Gita 2.46.

    So what am i saying? It is the experience and stabilization of the Divine in us that is of most use; that is the binding back to the Source. This consciousness, this state of Being, one then knows the Truth and is realized for oneself. This Jivanmuki then knows the true meaning of God as s/he experiences it every second of every day.

    All we can say on this HDF is our best efforts of what we know, of what we learned, and experienced. We are still in need of that person on HDF that can humbly stand and let us know He/She knows this Brahman.

    We then will have one established in Ritam. Until then we do the best we can and try to ferret-out the truth with the facilities we have at our disposal. We have many that are sastri-knowledgable, some by their in-depth reading, for others they are fortunate to have guru's or pandits, for some a direct experience of this samvid. Together we make some good headway in this HDF satsang.


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 October 2007 at 04:57 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Re: Are we worshiping the same God ?

    Whatever your personal point of view is, is just that. The fact of the matter is, all who worship God or a God are worshipping. If you want to see from the intellect, (or from inner knowledge) that there is more than one God, or a single force, then that's fine. As long as you're worshipping, and see something higher than you, then in my opinion you are on the path, and headed upward in the chakras, and consciousness. Even most atheists and agnostics would see that there is something that is wiser than them, some sort of intelligence. There have been many analogies put forth in this discussion to prove or disprove another's point of view. That's all fine too. It's between the individual and God. To me, God is all. I know its tough to see divinity in Hitler, (certainly a tad easier to see God in a swami, or a murthi) but many great saints from the east have said "Worship thy enemy" in one form or another. That's crucial I think in Sanatana Dharma" We don't believe in "an eye for an eye". As Gandhi said, (I don't remember the quote exactly) we'd all be blind. The five men and the elephant poem is another analogy. In Sanatana dharma, God can be 'this' or 'that' or 'not this', 'not that'. That's the beauty of our religion. There is plenty of room for many different takes. And we're all correct. That's kind of cool too. To attempt to pinpoint some specific definition of God is futile. It's just a whole lot of things for a whole lot of people. (Six billion and counting) Aum Namasivaya

  10. #20

    Re: Are we worshiping the same God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madhavan View Post
    These are not different concepts of god, but different angles of looking at the same god.
    Makes no sense, whatsoever. A chair, for instance, is a known object, so one may claim to 'look' at it from diff. angles. God is not within the field of sensory perception, so where's the q of looking at it from diff. angles?

    The indescribable God can be described in many ways
    That's a self-contradictory statement.

    Bottom line, if we say we're worshipping the same god, we have to know exactly what that 'same god' is, otherwise the assertion itself has little significance. If you claim to know exactly what that 'same god' is, well, then, you've got to prove it!

    Suresh

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