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Thread: Siva Sutras

  1. #61

    Re: Siva Sutras

    Namaste Yajvan,

    Thanks for posting the link. I may understand or relate to parts what of Manuel was quoted as saying...and the part about being happy to be human may seem rather ordinary but I feel it to be a very meaningful statement!

    Om
    Last edited by Bob G; 30 November 2007 at 10:50 PM.

  2. #62
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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    2. Knowing the individual consciousness as one's own nature and not knowing the Universal Consciousness as one's
    own nature, is bondage.
    Dear yajvan,
    What a wonderful thread. I find the Siva sutras very inspiring. I was particularly impressed with a translation of the above section I found on this Swami Lakshmanjoo site:
    Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage 1.02. Siva Sutras
    http://www.universalshaivafellowship..._02_first.html

    I took this to mean the following, that "knowing differentiatedly" is our confused state which is unable to behold the unity of being and is blinded by the apparent subject-object duality. We all pass through deep (undifferentiated) states during the processes of sleep and death but are unable to know these states for what they are, hence "not knowing undifferentiatedly" we are reborn within samsara.

    1. Within the gross state of awareness we are unable to connect with the underlying undifferentiated state (ie Shiva).
    2. Whilst in the undifferentiated state, there is no 'knowing'.

    Both are bondage.

    Just my take. Feel free to correct any mistakes here.

    Namaste

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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Just for a note: these are *interpretations* of the verse and not translations. Original sUtra is just "j~nAnam bandhaH".

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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Just for a note: these are *interpretations* of the verse and not translations. Original sUtra is just "j~nAnam bandhaH".
    Hi Arjuna,
    Yes, I'd noticed that. How would you literally translate those words?
    Namaste

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    Arrow Re: Siva Sutras

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Hi Arjuna,
    Yes, I'd noticed that. How would you literally translate those words?
    Namaste
    I don't see many variants for literal translation here .
    "Knowledge is bondage".

    BhAskara-vArttika interprets this as:

    "The knowledge [based on the notions] "I" and "this is mine" arises clothed in speech and consists of the perceptions of relative distinctions. It is rooted in the impurity of Maya and is said to be bondage, whose mark is the obscuration of ignorance".
    (Translated by M. Dyczkowski.)

  6. #66
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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    What a wonderful thread. I find the Siva sutras very inspiring. I was particularly impressed with a translation of the above section I found on this Swami Lakshmanjoo site:

    http://www.universalshaivafellowship..._02_first.html

    I took this to mean the following, that "knowing differentiatedly" is our confused state which is unable to behold the unity of being and is blinded by the apparent subject-object duality. We all pass through deep (undifferentiated) states during the processes of sleep and death but are unable to know these states for what they are, hence "not knowing undifferentiatedly" we are reborn within samsara.

    1. Within the gross state of awareness we are unable to connect with the underlying undifferentiated state (ie Shiva).
    2. Whilst in the undifferentiated state, there is no 'knowing'.

    Both are bondage.

    Just my take. Feel free to correct any mistakes here.

    Namaste
    Namaste srivijaya

    the original post is here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2078 this addresses Arjuna's post - and he is correct.. What we are now talking about is the insights offered from the wise for our consideration.
    I like your assessment. Let me offer perhaps just a bit more on this matter if I may.

    This sutra suggests the of wholeness of consciousness that is available for the native yet not established in ones daily life. It must be of key import don't you think as its the second sutra. It does not suggest it is not available , just not the daily experience 7x24x365 days a year.


    It's important to note that this kArikA appears in the 1st section of the Siva Sutras. There are 3 sections, for 3 stages of the sadhu. The Siva Sutras are laid out with the highest first, being offered first. Followed by 2nd and 3rd methodologies.

    It makes perfect sense that the first sutra then is caitanyamatma. The reality of everything is Supreme Consciousness. Note it starts at the highest level of Reality one could consider... no maya, or gunas, or birth-to-rebirth, and all that... just the pure fact that all THIS is THAT. To the asperant that is ready, this one word can deliver him/her to samāvea, to Divine Consciousness.

    This helps with understanding then the meaning behind this kArikA - to know differentially ( that is , in parts, in fractions) is bondage , a function of ignorance. And not knowing undifferentedly ( that is, this wholeness of consciousness) is also bondage or ignorance.

    But agāḥ (the limb or part) is connected to agi ( the whole). This ignorance cannot be outside of this wholeness. So what's the deal? It's the notion that one feels this incomplete-ness , this is the mala or impurity of ignorance we experience.

    So not knowing the whole-undifferentiated Consciousness is the blemish. But this 'knowing' is not the notion of book learning, its on the experiential level of life. To really know, is to Be IT.

    We have this blemish and this is what fills us with differentiated (agāḥ) experience AND we know it, because we live it daily - we experince it, life in fractions, in parts. This is the blemish on our eyes. The kArakA then is the foundation to take one further in this understanding, and the sutras in Chapt 1 are there to remove the blimish for that sadhu that is at this state of development.

    This is my assessment - perhaps others can extend the insight.

    नमः शिवाय च शिवतराय च
    namah śivāya ca śivatarāya ca
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    It must be of key import don't you think as its the second sutra. It does not suggest it is not available , just not the daily experience... This ignorance cannot be outside of this wholeness. So what's the deal?
    Hi yajvan,
    Yes, I absolutely agree. The 'basis' from which the samsaric consciousness proceeds is the supreme undifferentiated awareness and, in truth, it is never apart from it. The habitual nama-rupa thought pattern misconstrues the vibration of shakti and, thus, attributes 'self and other' upon the unfolding sense data.

    this 'knowing' is not the notion of book learning, its on the experiential level of life. AND we know it, because we live it daily- we experince it, life in fractions, in parts.
    Well said.

    I don't know about others here, but I find that I occupy a very uncomfortable middle ground between those who assert that this 'supreme consciousness' is a 'separate entity' which has certain attributes and requires worship and those who assert that it does not even exist.

    Namaste

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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    I don't know about others here, but I find that I occupy a very uncomfortable middle ground between those who assert that this 'supreme consciousness' is a 'separate entity' which has certain attributes and requires worship and those who assert that it does not even exist.
    Namaste
    Namate srivijaya,
    I see your point.
    This Supreme is so Intelligent ( it is intelligence itself) so whole, one can view it as advaita , dvaita+ advaita, and dvaita. This is, how it looks at itself, as His creation is not outside of itSELF. Some even say This Supreme creates us, to learn, enjoy and exprience more about isSELF as 'agents' of Reality.

    As a 'seperate entity' one can have the experience of dvaita+advaita; As for 'not existing at all' the blemish of avidya, ignorance prevails. And in many cases one does not even know that one does not know.

    One may characterise this as nijashuddhi - ones own impurity. This is how the 9th karika found in the Spanda-kArikAa begins. This asuddhi is impurity , yet what is meant is mala. Mala मल is considered dirt , filth , dust , yet we are directed to consider mala as a limiting condition. Just as one has dirt and dust on the windshield of a car, it can be wiped off. The muni says there are 3 kinds of significant malas.
    • Anava mala
    • Mayiya mala
    • Karma mala
    So , one pre-occupied with lots of dirt on the windshield will not even have the consideration of the Supreme.

    pranams
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #69
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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Anava mala
    Mayiya mala
    Karma mala
    Hi yajvan,
    I find these categories to be a very useful way of investigating ignorance.
    Namaste

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    Re: Siva Sutras

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by srivijaya View Post
    Hi yajvan,
    I find these categories to be a very useful way of investigating ignorance.
    Namaste
    Namaste srivijaya,
    this is also discussed in the following HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...highlight=mala

    perhaps you may find it of interest, and may wish to comment on this matter.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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