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Thread: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

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    Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    Here's some thoughts for consideration. Note, I am not a scholar on this matter. As of late my eyes have turned to similarities, same-nss (sama) and even-ness of things.

    This has taken me to some studies¹ I wish to share. So this is my view point to perhaps stimulate a conversation on finding commonality vs. diversity. See what you think.

    We know that Christianity is grounded in Jesus the Christ. What is the root of Christ? Christos or the anointed one. This comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew word mashiach or ha mashiah - the anointed one , the messiah, from the Jewish faith.

    And what are some of these principles of the Jewish faith? If we know some of these we know the roots of Christianity... the faith that Jesus was part of.

    The 13 Principles of Jewish Faith - the parallels to Sanatana Dharma

    1. The Existence of God: The existence of Brahman and/or Ishvara. Brahman is Existence itself.
    2. The Unity of God: Brahman- All this one Tad Ekam, That One
    3. God Is Omniscient: Brahman is everywhere; there is no place He/It/THAT exits - relative or absolute
    4. The incorporeality (spiritual, non-material) of God - Brahman/ISvara is of spirit. Finer then the finest. The essence of creation
    5. The eternity of God: Brahman is Infinite without end in time, space, place.
    6. God is the only hearer of prayer: I have no parallel offer for this principle. Yet to one that adores his/her Ishtadevata this is the personal relationship to ones Ishta.
    7. The prophets were inspired by God: The rishi, guru, saint, are exponents of Reality, of truth and is grounded in That.
    8. Moses is the supreme profit: Perhaps in Santana Dharma we can call out Adi Shankara, or Sri Chaitanya?
    9. The Penteuch ( penta = 5 + teuch = books) was given entirely to Moses - The 5 books of the Torah - Many know them as Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. This was thought to be a single document when revealed to Moses by the Lord ' as a he spoke to him face-to-face, as a man speaks to his friend'.This is = to the Vedas as being one in the Krta Yuga; And the Vedas are that if revelation ,that of sruti for the seers or rishidristi , seen by the rishi.
    10. The Torah is immutable: Vedas are immutable and the cornerstone of Satyam Ritam Bharat - the Truth, The Right and the Vast.
    11. God is the dispenser of divine reward and punishment; Isvara via His grace, brings one to Mokhsa; Punishment is a function of Karma, and dispensed via the Grahas
    12. The messiah will come ( This is Jesus queue as part of the core principle of Judaism); In Sanatana dharma this can be the principle of avatar of Visnu. Not just one , but many
    13. The messiah will raise the dead : this is confirmation that Jesus is in fact a messiah. In Sanatana Dharma this would be considered a siddhi. We see this in several Puranas.
    What I do not see in the list of 13 is Sat-Chit-Ananda references.
    I see a beautiful list of 13, yet I do not see the call out of God and Satchitananda. It is my humble opinion this is where Jesus plays a role here. Just as the Upanishads offer the explanation of Brahman, Jesus brings clarity to the personal experience of Ishvara and the native. This is where Satchitananda equivalents is called out or offered via a realized Being, Jesus.
    • The kingdom of Heaven is within you
    • You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
    • Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
    • Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions
    • The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
    Things I find interesting
    Many (Christians?) see Jesus on the cross dying… isn't the miracle in his resurrection over death? The twice born - He into the Divine, into the spirit. Any one can die , but how many can be reborn? This is a main teaching of Jesus as I see it, Victory over death, over ignorance, over the material body and into the Spirit. It not about the suffering...

    This is the same as I see with Natraj… As He dances one foot is stepping on a person, some say this is a baby, and indicates victory over rebirth. A nice correlation between principles . Victory over the death of the body.

    Now, many have opinions on this notion… is Jesus and his orientation Advaita or Dvaitya? Jesus said 'I and my father are One'.
    There are some Christians that say, this means Jesus is God. Others say he and God are in alignment, and Jesus as Son of Man , is from God, His father, and therefore One.

    So there are many views on this and will not debate this notion of Advaita or Dvaitya.
    Yet I see this a interesting view on this matter.



    1. Reference book: the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions - John Bowler, professor of Religion, University of Lancaster, with 80 contributors from around the world


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 20 March 2009 at 11:31 AM. Reason: improvments to read-a-bility
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Thumbs Up Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Namaste yajvan

    I have enjoyed very much this post of your's. I think in general terms the bridge between the three religions was very well thought.

  3. #3

    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Things I find interesting
    Many (Christians?) see Jesus on the cross dying… isn't the miracle in his resurrection over death? The twice born - He into the Divine, into the spirit. Any one can die , but how many can be reborn? This is a main teaching of Jesus as I see it, Victory over death, over ignorance, over the material body and into the Spirit. It not about the suffering...
    Great observation, I never noticed this before:

    If Jesus' example is one of resurrection and overcoming death, why would anyone keep an image of him as he's dying on the cross - as the main symbol of the religion ?

    I know logical arguments can be found, that it's to remind the Christian of his sacrifice for them and so on, but come on, shouldn't people focus on the desirable state (enlightenment, overcoming, after or during the resurrection) rather than the painful bloody moments before ?

    I find this to be masochistic, poorly inspired, needless focus on pain and suffering, and will add it to the list of things that I find funny and peculiar about Christianity

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    Great observation, I never noticed this before:

    If Jesus' example is one of resurrection and overcoming death, why would anyone keep an image of him as he's dying on the cross - as the main symbol of the religion ?

    I know logical arguments can be found, that it's to remind the Christian of his sacrifice for them and so on, but come on, shouldn't people focus on the desirable state (enlightenment, overcoming, after or during the resurrection) rather than the painful bloody moments before ?

    I find this to be masochistic, poorly inspired, needless focus on pain and suffering, and will add it to the list of things that I find funny and peculiar about Christianity
    Actually, the Protestant cross is usually displayed without the crucified Christ, specifically to indicate that Christ has risen. This is especially true in the evangelical faith. You would think that the emphasis on Christ's death is masochistic and needless, while the emphasis on the resurrection of Christ is positive. However, let's judge the belief by its fruits. Catholics tend to be more interested in charity and doing good deeds. Evangelicals, on the other hand, practice missionary work and cultural annihilation (some Catholics do this too, but in much smaller proportions), they litter India with their poison, they regard Hinduism as idolatry, and here in America they think the only thing God cares about is that we vote Republican. Let's judge beliefs by their results rather than by endless philosophical arguments as to possible consequences of the beliefs. I'm not saying the Catholic Church is perfect, especially with the sex abuse scandals that have been coming out in the past few weeks. But evangelicals are responsible for far more conversions of Hindus than Catholics. I'll take the Catholics and their crucifix over the Protestants and their empty cross any day.

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Many (Christians?) see Jesus on the cross dying isn't the miracle in his resurrection over death? The twice born - He into the Divine, into the spirit. Any one can die , but how many can be reborn? This is a main teaching of Jesus as I see it, Victory over death, over ignorance, over the material body and into the Spirit. It not about the suffering...
    Since I am a former Christian (Catholic), I'll attempt to explain. This is the basic message that your average missionary will shove down your throat.

    God is holy, and therefore perfect. However, we are not perfect. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" says the Bible (Romans 3:23). Every one of us has told a lie, taken something that wasn't ours (even a pen or a piece of paper). Therefore, we are all sinners. The Bible states "For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 3:23). Therefore, we all deserve to die for our sins. Nothing impure or imperfect will get into heaven. The only other place is hell, so if we die in our sins, we will go to hell.

    However, God loves us - He is our loving Father. Therefore, He sent Jesus, His Son, to earth. Jesus lived a perfect life - He never committed a single sin. He, however, allowed Himself to be brutally crucified on our behalf. He accepted death on the Cross so that we would be forgiven our sins. We deserve to die for our sins, but Jesus took our place and died instead of us. When He died, He paid the penalty for our sins, and when He rose again on the third day, He conquered death and enabled mankind to have everlasting life. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that all who believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).


    However, knowing this isn't enough. One has to personally make the decision to receive Jesus Christ into their life as their personal Saviour. This is done through prayer.

    (here will follow a typical Protestant prayer for receiving Jesus as one's personal Saviour)


    So the emphasis given to Jesus' death on the Cross is that through His death mankind is forgiven their sins, according
    to Christian teachings. That is the reason that Catholics place so much emphasis on crucifixes and remembering Christ's painful suffering through devotions such as the Stations of the Cross. It is because Jesus died in their place, and through his death their sins are forgiven. However, Christians don't believe that all people will be forgiven through Christ's death - only those who believe in Jesus and follow Him (i.e. Christians) will be forgiven.

    Jesus Himself didn't specifically state this teaching - the closest he came was when He said "For even the Son of Man [Jesus] did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

    Actually, the Protestant cross is usually displayed without the crucified Christ, specifically to indicate that Christ has risen. This is especially true in the evangelical faith. You would think that the emphasis on Christ's death is masochistic and needless, while the emphasis on the resurrection of Christ is positive.
    Protestants do tend to use plain Crosses, because Christ is Risen and that is what they focus on. Catholics, however, tend to focus more on the suffering of Christ, since it is through that suffering that they belive they are forgiven. Possibly another reason that Protestants adopted plain Crosses is that Catholics had crucifixes and Protestants didn't like Catholicism or anything associated with it.

    However, let's judge the belief by its fruits. Catholics tend to be more interested in charity and doing good deeds.
    This is because Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation. The Bible states that "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:24,26).

    Protestants, however, believe that they are saved by "faith alone" (faith here meaning faith in Jesus' death on the Cross). They base ther believe on Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory"

    Evangelicals, on the other hand, practice missionary work and cultural annihilation (some Catholics do this too, but in much smaller proportions), they litter India with their poison, they regard Hinduism as idolatry, and here in America they think the only thing God cares about is that we vote Republican. Let's judge beliefs by their results rather than by endless philosophical arguments as to possible consequences of the beliefs.
    Catholics used to practice missionary work much more. St. Francis Xavier (1506-1552) was responsible for converting many Hindus to Catholicism. This was in the days before the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). The Council paved the way for introducing ecumenism, trying to find common ground between the Catholic religion and other world religions. For example, before Vatican II, Protestants were condemned as "heretics". Now the Catholic Church calls them "separated brethren". Our Lady of Medjugorje, a supposed apparition of the Virgin Mary, told the teenagers that she appears to that people of all religions are accepted by Jesus. Catholics in many cases are now far more accepting of other religions (however they are very against those who practice the Catholic faith as it was before Vatican II and want to attend the old Mass rather than the new.)

    On the other hand, Evangelicals and Baptists have had no such reforms, and continue to believe that the only way to heaven is Jesus. They go out and preach Christianity because they truly wish to save those peoples' souls from eternal damnation in hell (the punishment for not beliving in Jesus or Christianity). I see it as a driver warning fellow drivers that a landslide has destroyed part of the road just after a bend, and they are in danger of driving off the road to their deaths. Christians honestly believe that a person needs to believe in Jesus to be saved.

    I'm not saying the Catholic Church is perfect, especially with the sex abuse scandals that have been coming out in the past few weeks. But evangelicals are responsible for far more conversions of Hindus than Catholics. I'll take the Catholics and their crucifix over the Protestants and their empty cross any day.
    The sex abuse scandals in the Church have been going on for a long time. A Traditional Catholic friend of mine belives that it happened because the Church allowed homosexual men to enter the priesthood. Prior to Vatican II, men of homosexual orientation were not allowed to become priests. However, my friend is EXTREMELY anti-homosexual, calling gay couples "the lovers of Sodom and Gomorrah".

    The Catholics are closer to the original Christian religion than the Protestants. The Eastern Orthodox, who split with the Catholics in 1054, are the closest to the original Christian religion (although perhaps not the actual teachings of Christ). Eastern Orthodox Christians repeat the Jesus Prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner". They have a prayer rope with knots on it to count the repetions, like a Hindu japa mala. Orthodox also emphasise the importance of the individual Christian accepting a "spiritual father", a priest who will guide them on their spiritual journey.

    I'd take the Orthodox over the Catholics any day. They are far more tolerant and practice missionary work the least. Plus their churches are really beautiful. Here is a photo of the local Greek Orthodox cathedral that I took when we went to the Greek food festival.

  6. #6

    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Personally the more I read about Christianity, the more I feel it's like Scientology: It has nothing whatsoever to do with what's actually out there, or afterlife, or anything of the sort. Like a government agency that's grown too fat in bureaucracy, for quite some years now, Christianity just does its own thing, no relation to the outside world.

    Am I the only one with that impression ? And I do hope nobody gets offended, it's just the personal opinion of a non-Christian

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
    Personally the more I read about Christianity, the more I feel it's like Scientology: It has nothing whatsoever to do with what's actually out there, or afterlife, or anything of the sort. Like a government agency that's grown too fat in bureaucracy, for quite some years now, Christianity just does its own thing, no relation to the outside world.

    Am I the only one with that impression ? And I do hope nobody gets offended, it's just the personal opinion of a non-Christian
    Vannakkam: I personally don't think Christ existed, period, and that the Bible is some odd diatribe of mixed myths somebody concocted that has more illogic than one could possibly imagine. Still, from the fear chakra, it has its place for some souls, I guess.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 23 March 2010 at 07:15 PM. Reason: sp

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    I wouldn't go as far as to compare it to scientology, since christians, especially catholics, do hold major charities and such (I could be wrong about scientology and charity though, so correct me if I am), and christianity does have far more legitimate roots than scientology, but yeah, I do get the impression that christianity has at least lost track of a great deal of Jesus's teachings to the point of spouting falshehood and a false agenda. I personally believe that Jesus may have been an avatar of Vishnu who forgot who he was and didn't advance as far as the other avatars spiritually because he was so far from anything that could remind him or help him along the way. OR, its also possible that if he was an avatar of Vishnu then he was created for the same reason that Buddha supposedly was, but I'm not sure I like that viewpoint, and tend to think Buddha was actually an avatar of Shiva (his philosophy's emphasis on renunciation just feels more Saivite to me) but thats all just personal theory and interpretation.
    To me, christianity is good or at least harmless if its being done right, but the thing is so many people are doing it wrong that even a sincere convert or lifelong christian who would otherwise do right can easily be lead down the wrong path.

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvati View Post
    think Buddha was actually an avatar of Shiva (his philosophy's emphasis on renunciation just feels more Saivite to me) but thats all just personal theory and interpretation.
    Vannakkam Ashvati: Just so you know, traditionally Saivites don't believe in avatars as a concept. Avatar is a Vaishnava concept, that has had some horizontal transfer going on. Just thought you should know that. Various concepts, because of mixing and mingling, get applied across the board when in reality they are unique to one religion only.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 23 March 2010 at 07:55 PM.

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    Re: Christianity - Another Viewpoint

    Yeah, I really don't know as much about saivism as I probably should. That would explain why I've never heard of any avatars of Shiva though.

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