Miracles or Science?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

There is not much difference between turIya and sustained turIya ... ~Sudarshan

Namaste,

Let me ask a simple question: Do you speak from direct personal experience?

The same with siddhi-s - we have had multiple conversations on this matter in the past. Many spoke of siddhi-s being a distraction, or it may in fact derail your sadhana, to 'stay away'. I am not suggesting you are inferring this nor that you even suggested this. But when I asked the audience of participants one simple question 'Do you speak from direct personal experience' then there was silence.

Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger...

pranams

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!
Subham.

Namaste TTA,
Here is some HDF conversations we had on siddhi-s if you have interest. You can also do an HDF search on 'siddhi' for more if your appetite grows.

1. Worth the pursuit http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909
2. Ajna- The third eye Chakra http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=19591&postcount=5
3. Yoga Sutra-s and Jyotish http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2507&highlight=Samyama
4. Definitions http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=Samyama

pranams

[sm78]

Well said singhi.

Doing selfless duty brings down the grace of God who will directly instruct you into the deeper mysteries of Yoga just like he did for Arjuna.

This kind of vairAgya is a prerequisite for obtaining any kind of God vision but in our world even swamijis with huge bank balances talk about the ultimate realization of God. Funny.

And if one's thinks a little it seems selfless duty of doing what is necessary in the given space-time (guided by a priori knowledge dharma with common sense and viveka) can indeed be performed under the refuge of the unmanifest only.

For it is not mere talk and audible noise (jagrat/vaikhari),
nor it can be action based on mere intellectual considerations (madhyama), nor it can be action based on mere feelings and even subtle anubhutis (taijasa - prajna/pashyanti).

Ofcourse in this world we mostly spend our life making noise, or thinking this and that or remain immeresed in a bhava samadhi for a while and then proclaim to the world that God has been realized.

shAstras do not say that obtaining the highest experience is a common occurrance. It is rarer than the rarest events. It is one in a billion sort of thing. kAtha upanishad compares the path of yogic sAdhana as akin to walking on a razor's edge.

uttishhThata jaagrata
praapya varaannibodhata .
kshurasya dhaaraa nishitaa duratyayaa
durgaM pathastatkavayo vadanti ( 1.3.14)

Arise! Awake! Approach the great and learn. Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say—hard to tread and difficult to cross.

Also, see

na me viduH suragaNAH prabhavaM na maharShayaH .
ahamAdirhi devAnAM maharShINA.n cha sarvashaH .. BG 10-2..

Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the gods and sages.

Knowing the Lord is a rare privilege even for gods and the greatest sages. What do I say for humans?

No God realization is not subject of meditation, sadhanas, online crash courses or some prowess over scriptures etc.

Yet, it must be said that the essential divine nature of our own selves, experience of bhavat kripa etc are not too difficult as well to achieve which should allow oneself to spend the minusclule human birth for well being of others and in service of God and others.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

No God realization is not subject of meditation, sadhanas, online crash courses or some prowess over scriptures etc.

Yet, it must be said that the essential divine nature of our own selves, experience of bhavat kripa etc are not too difficult as well to achieve which should allow oneself to spend the minuscule human birth for well being of others and in service of God and others.

Namaste singhi,
Well said. This is no 'minute rice' that becomes enlightenment. And our own divine nature is something one may need to be re-introduced to ( these days). It is not magic, or hidden in such a way that He does not want you to experience your own nature, anuttara, again and come home.

That is, there is no premiere club that only allows certain people to experience this level of Being.

Hence this is the gift of the wise. to offer insights , techniques and the like that allows that light to be seen again.

pranams

[sm78]

Hari Om
~~~~~



Namaste singhi,
Well said. This is no 'minute rice' that becomes enlightenment. And our own divine nature is something one may need to be re-introduced to ( these days). It is not magic, or hidden in such a way that He does not want you to experience your own nature, anuttara, again and come home.

That is, there is no premiere club that only allows certain people to experience this level of Being.

Hence this is the gift of the wise. to offer insights , techniques and the like that allows that light to be seen again.

pranams

Namaste Yajvan,

It is admitted that human birth is something quite extraoridinary in that it allows oneself the freedom to think and act in ways that has not been pre-set by nature. None of the present mamalia and animals outside mamalia seem to enjoy this freedom (or to the level we do). I hope this is not an extraordinary claim. God realization indeed on this earth seems essentially human.

So as a jiva, it seems, we are already in a premiere club. So unless you don't believe this (the previledge to be born as a human), what is the solid reason to not accept that as humans we cannot have a premiere club amongst us?

I, like you, do not believe that people need to be reminded again and again they are ordinary and that greatness is quite beyond them and rests with only a few previledged by birth and education. Such attitude is spiteful and comes from a self-preservation mentality. At the sametime, it would be not be accurate to claim, God realization as per arya shastra is quite easy and attainable goal of one human birth. Sudarshan's quote of Lord Krishna own words should be believed in this regard if one swears by other things he say.

Indeed many of us feel the divine connection in us and might want to cherish that spiritual experience we have had and hope for it to shine again in us, but, it might be not be most accurate to call that experience Turiya. That is all.

I must also add, the above is my way of looking, the way I was developed and continue to develop. I can argue on why the 'state of restful alertness', 'state of expanding conciousness', 'belonging to everything' etc are not turiya but belong to taijasa (culminating in vishva rupa darshana), but that argument will essentially satisfy someone of similar temparment as mine and its best to leave this disagreement as a disagreement.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste singhi & thank you for your reply.

I respect your views and see your point. Let me see if I can offer a few ideas - not to convince, but to explain, or offer a POV for one's consideration. First note that the conversation was predicated a few posts ago on turīya being somewhat special or unique. I chose to address that point in my posts. I agree with your assessment that ...

that spiritual experience we have had and hope for it to shine again in us, but, it might be not be most accurate to call that experience Turiya. That is all.

... Yes I see how that could be as there are many ways to experience the Divine. What my inquiry has been: is there is a method to experience the Divine if one chooses to do so? Not a random experience that occurs by happenstance but is self initiated. This question has brought me to the doorsteps of turīya again and again i.e. a vehicle to the Divine or the experience thereof. Are there other ways and venues? Are there other words one can use to describe this path to the Divine? Sure.

This is from my experience, teachings, and study of the śhastra-s. If there are other ways, I am encouraged to know them; please advise so I too can understand them, I am open to learn.

Regarding a premiere club. Yes, I see your point on jīva. My notion was to suggest no one person need to walk around with a puffed-up chest and suggest 'it is only I, or those from my varṇa that can experience or have access to this turīya'. My view is this experience is open to all. I think we both agree.

Regarding the following:

I can argue on why the 'state of restful alertness', 'state of expanding consciousness', 'belonging to everything' etc are not turiya but belong to taijasa (culminating in vishva rupa darshana), but that argument will essentially satisfy someone of similar temperament as mine and its best to leave this disagreement as a disagreement

The words I use are offered to help those new to this line of thinking. A more robust look at this turīya is offered as a new HDF post
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3312 and I welcome your input, value-add and your observations.

That said if you care to offer your POV, please do, I think we can do it in a civil manner and avoid jalpa. For me, HDF has had plenty of heated debates. While some may find it useful, I think they are less so. People can have differing opinions AND still understand the other individual's POV yet not be required to 'convert'. So, I welcome your insights if you choose to pursue the conversation.

You also mention

it would be not be accurate to claim God realization as per arya shastra is quite easy and attainable goal of one human birth

Yes, I agree. Yet one would ask , well how many births then? Who can say? No one can say except Him. When it comes to His grace, it may be one lifetime, or 1000 lifetimes.

From my POV it is a good time to start one's progress to Brahma Sakshtkara. The notion for me is starting, not leaving it to chance. This POV is offered by Vasiṣṭha-ji as self effort. This can be found in Chapt 2, śloka-s 4 & 5 , in the Yoga Vasiṣṭha. 'Self Effort has two catagories' says Vasiṣṭha-ji, 'that of past births and that of this birth'. He concludes this thought by saying 'Fate is none other then the self-effort of a past incarnation'.
Pending one's past development this (mokśa) could occur with one word from the guru, or it may take life-after-life. Yet to talk of it, practice,and understand it seems valuable to me.
How so? what are the components to kevalya? Do we know is turīya and turīyātīta part of the travel to it? If yes lets understand it more, if no, lets understand it. Are there other ways, methods and can one speak from their personal experiences?

What is most beneficial for the sādhu that brings sattā (Being) to the aspirant? What are the ways to unfold the Divine in his/her daily life? This is how I think about it. We know there are many routes.

I am at point in my life where the academics of mokśa is interesting, yet personal experiences are extremely valuable. I am open and eager to listen to all that can bring the richness of knowledge and experience to the conversation.

pranams

[Sagefrakrobatik]

turIya is certainly here today. It then means everyone experiences infinite bliss all the time? Why it does not happen is because it lies buried very deep under your thoughts ( gross, subtle and causal). If you can break through all these layers you could access it. That is precisely why I said it is not at all easy. Does God or guru go around conferring that on everyone? They are very choosy because you need to really evolve to that stage.

No wonder, Sri Ramanuja says that the very idea of thinking oneself to be the same as the Lord is blaspemous. It is indeed so, at our level. It is this wrong thinking that makes people write things like ' kneeling before God is wrong'. Why do you really kneel before God if your current goal is rise to that level? We do so because at our level, we are still very weak mortals who still look towards diivine help even to accomplish simple tasks.( just quoting theory from scripture does not change anything in practical life). Theory and practise must be go hand in hand.

God can be experienced at many levels. God can be experienced right here in this world. But to know the true nature of God is not such a simple thing. Not even great rishis and devatas know him completely. We should keep this in mind and must work one step at a time.


~Sudarshan

I wonder if we can extrapolate comparisons between this and Christianity. In Christianity Man was originally made in the Image of God, so I guess we could say he had acess to that Turiya or God-consciousness is what you guys seem to be talking about. Unitl man fell due to original sin Now man tries to experience God and in christianity that experience is facillitated by coming to Christ. It is interesting to not that throughout the Srimad Bhagavtam i see the phrase twice-born and in the New Testmant Jesus says that you must be born again. Just some thoughts. Also if Turiya is as you say it is you might be interested in checking out RV (Remote Viewing);

http://http://www.learnrv.com/faqs.cfm#whatrv