Miracles or Science?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I was watching a program today that tried to explain the phenomenon of miracles. The notion was to show that there was a natural explanation behind these events. They did not try to discount the event, they just said how can this be explained?

It has occurred to me for some time now, as to why shouldn't a miracle have a physics explanation. If I were God or a devata doing this action, why would I not want to use the tools in the tool box? The laws of nature that allow you to influence and control prakriti?

When you think about it, would not someone say a few thousand years ago find it a miracle if you drove up to the local temple in a car? It would amaze them. To you , you are thinking what's the big deal? An engine, some wheels a transmission, whats the fuss?

Or You walked into Newton's home with a laptop , and you had Excel on it, you have a statistics & math application on it. You then solved a few questions, and you asked his for a suggestion on a math problem ( assuming you were comfortable with math), What would Newton do?

So, even with siddha's that have some special power. We should rejoice and say what is the physics behind this? New laws of nature that I am not aware of are operating. As I think, the siddha is using the natural intelligence found in this creation. If given by God, or divinity, or tapas, it is in this universe and there for all to use.

There is no need for a 'miracle' per se if you can access subltler laws or dormant laws of nature we have not exercised. It still does not discount the awe and delight to see this or experience it.

So, then what is a miracle? Life, the creation of every innumerable law of nature known or not known, and complete annihilation and returning this whole creation back into the Absolute. Are there more? sure. I am sure you have a dozen of 'em.

Nothing beats a good miracle I say, to make your day!

pranams,

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I was watching a program today that tried to explain the phenomenon of miracles. The notion was to show that there was a natural explanation behind these events. They did not try to discount the event, they just said how can this be explained?

It has occurred to me for some time now, as to why shouldn't a miracle have a physics explanation. If I were God or a devata doing this action, why would I not want to use the tools in the tool box? The laws of nature that allow you to influence and control prakriti?

When you think about it, would not someone say a few thousand years ago find it a miracle if you drove up to the local temple in a car? It would amaze them. To you , you are thinking what's the big deal? An engine, some wheels a transmission, whats the fuss?

Or You walked into Newton's home with a laptop , and you had Excel on it, you have a statistics & math application on it. You then solved a few questions, and you asked his for a suggestion on a math problem ( assuming you were comfortable with math), What would Newton do?

So, even with siddha's that have some special power. We should rejoice and say what is the physics behind this? New laws of nature that I am not aware of are operating. As I think, the siddha is using the natural intelligence found in this creation. If given by God, or divinity, or tapas, it is in this universe and there for all to use.

There is no need for a 'miracle' per se if you can access subltler laws or dormant laws of nature we have not exercised. It still does not discount the awe and delight to see this or experience it.

So, then what is a miracle? Life, the creation of every innumerable law of nature known or not known, and complete annihilation and returning this whole creation back into the Absolute. Are there more? sure. I am sure you have a dozen of 'em.

Nothing beats a good miracle I say, to make your day!

pranams,

Yea but Miracles are used to prove the superiority of one religion over the other. Look at all those christian ministries that supposedly heal people by calling on the name of Jesus. I've been to a pentecostal like service where a man I believe was supposedly healed of Cancer, my friend attributed his $6,000 lotto ticket to praying and he is Christian. Look at all miraculous sightings of Lady Fatima around the world. Christianity is a religion filled with unexplainable miracles. If your a Christian this would support your claim that Christianity is the one and only true religion.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Yea but Miracles are used to prove the superiority of one religion over the other.

Namaste Sagefrakrobatik
Are you suggesting that miracles (siddhi-s) are performed with that end in mind? Or are you suggesting that those filled with mala us these to support a particualur view or argument?

[saidevo]

Namaste Yajvan.

Swami Paramahansa Yogananda has given a 'scientific' explanation of the Law of Miracles in his book Autobiography of a Yogi, chapter 30. This book can be read at/downloaded from:

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7452 (HTML)

http://www.aren.org/prison/documents...0Yogananda.pdf

http://www.kriyayoga.com/free/eBooks...46_edition.pdf

Sometime back Sarabhanga said that photons are the basic building blocks of all manifestations. Yogananda has explained how yogis can manipulate the power of light for their miracles of creation.

[Sudarshan]

Light is only a physical manifestation of the 'spiritual light' which is really called light only as an analogy because it cannot be described in the way the physical phenomena can be.

The fundamental particles as given by the shAstras are the five elements, of which the most basic element is shabda. This subtle shabda( shabda tanmAtra) is the fundamental particle of manifest nature. Everything is a wave in its most subtle aspect.

All miracles shown by yogis and avatAras are due to their more advanced knowledge about these five elements. Some yogis know about the earth element, some about the water, some about fire, some about air and the most advanced yogis know about the infinite AkAsha that gives them unlimited powers. Knowing this Akasha, one also consequently knows the cidAkAsha which is Brahman. These elements are not just insentient matter but are vibrant with divine energy as one begins to percieve these elements directly.

While we speak about these elements, the evolved Yogis actually percieve them so that makes a big difference in the way they view the world. For the full avatAra like Sri Krishna his will is the law - he has no need to obey any laws of physical nature or even the sublest laws of nature.

[yajvan]

Hari Oṁ
~~~~~
Namaste Sudarshan ( et.al)

The reason why light, prākaśa, is mentioned is, it compliments name (nāma) and form (rūpa) by which this universe exists. With the sound tanmāntra you call out, śabda, name is possible. With prākaśa, rūpa becomes possible.

As you suggest prākaśa is associated with Spiritual light and this too is considered Full Consciousness, anuttara, some like to call it citta praylaya or the destruction of finite, or individual consciousness.

Yet this ether or space you mention (ākāśa), it provides the environment for this form to occur and for sound to take place.
So this ākāśa is quite subtle and part of the pa�ca mahabhūta or 5 great subtle elements. Subtler then this ākāśa is consciousness or awareness we all use daily.

It is my assessment and study that the various sages performed these extraordinary actions (miracles) operating on the Consciousness level to influence what takes place within name and form and hence within pa�ca ta�māntra. Since they ( the muni-s) are operating at the fundamental level of consciousness, their influences go up into and through:

• the pa�ca mahabhūta-s: 5 great elements
• pa�ca ta�māntra-s-: 5 subtle elements
• pa�ca karmendriya-s : 5 organs of action
• pa�ca jnanendriya-s : 5 organs of cognition
  etc.

Many call the subtlest tattva or that-ness, aham (I) and this is that pure consciousness state mentioned above.

This 'operating level' is suggested in the Yogadarśana of Pata�jali and called out ( less specifically) in the Spanda-kārikās; Other śastras also call out the siddhi's one can attain. Yet I have found Pata�jali is more specific on his offers.

In each case Pata�jali suggests to the practitioner that saṁyama� by exercised within his/her field of consciousness. From this consciousness siddhi-s occur that influence the tattva-s listed above - hence the influence on creation at the fundamental levels.

Just as one working at the sub-atomic level of existence affects all the structures above that level, like that, when one operates at finer and finer levels of Being, the power and expanse is of a profound nature.
We then hear of miracles... the yogi, sage, avatāra is using a new level of physics, based on cosmic principles in which we are in awe.

pranams
1. more information on saṁyama संयम, consider this HDF Post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=909&highlight=samyama

[Sudarshan]

The depth of subtility has the following order -

pR^itivi --> ApaH --> agni --> vAyu --> AkAsha -> manas --> subtle pR^itivi --> ApaH --> agni --> vAyu --> subtle AkAsha -->avyakta -->
jIva--> brahman( pure consciousness)

jnAnedriyas and karmednriyas are subtler than panca mahA bhUtas.

The amount of jnAna/siddhi is directly proportional to the subtlest level at which you have aparoxa jnAna. Those who intuit the final knowledge 'I am Brahman' or 'All is Brahman' after understanding all lower tattvas to have emanated from Brahman have unlimited knowledge and almost unlimited powers. ( except some special powers of the Lord like creation of the universe which no Yogi is capable of anytime). It is unlikely that any Yogi will display these powers and knowledge in public. Any Yogi who has reached the summit realizes the futility and limitations of any powers because he now enjoys the infinite bliss of his being before which anything in the universe is just a blade of grass. Any half evolved Yogi who enjoys these Lordly powers risks loosing all the acquired spiritual merits. Until you attain the highest samAdhi nothing you attain is permanent.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Yes, yet we started the conversation with light. I offered the following:

The reason why light, prākaśa, is mentioned is, it compliments name (nāma) and form (rūpa) by which this universe exists. With the sound tanmāntra you call out, śabda, name is possible. With prākaśa, rūpa becomes possible.

I also gave an audit trail on how the sage may in fact utilize the tattva-s for miracles to occur and how this is connected to prākaśa via name and form, where miracles occur.


You offer the march of the tattva from gross to subtle, thank you. Yet I see no difference between gross pañca mahabhūta-s suggested and the subtle ones outlined. How do they differ ? and by what name do they go by?

That is, I cannot discern between gross ākāśa and a subtle one.How are you differing space unless you are referring to cit-ākāśa as subtle. If so can you point this out.. are you considering kham or Brahman as this subtler ākāśa? (per Bṛhadaraṇyaka Upaniṣad).


Please advise on where you wish to take the conversation... siddhi, light, tattva or miracles ? I will be happy to participate.

parnams

[Sudarshan]

Gross elements make up this physical universe - they are responsible for all names and forms in the waking state. Science cannot possibly penetrate beyond this and all laws of the universe is based on the derivatives of the gross elements. This universe collectively is the Agni vashvAnara and we are just like different limbs and organs on this divine person.

Subtle elements are well, subtle. The astral realms are made of subtle elements which are actually 'mental constructs' and not as fleshy as ours. The bodies of devatas, evolved rishis etc are made of subtle elements. This corresponds to the divine taijasa purusha in whom all devatas and higher lokas reside. Those who have access to this subtle realm can perform miracles that cannot be explained by science. ( atleast the presemt day science). If you have mind so pure you will be able to see the beings ( such as devatas) in this state. Infact, the process of seeing here is very different from what the physical eyes see. Everything is so light and pure and raditates more divine nature than the heavy gross matter in the waking state.
The taijasa world has names and forms but are much lighter than gross elements and they cannot be understood by science in its present stage. The sublest Akasha still belongs to this world.


Beyond the realm of the taijasa purusha is the nameless Lord ( prAgnya)who rules both the material and the astral universe. This realm is beyond the universe and beyond the subtle AkAsha-tanmAtra and is pure bliss and knowledge. It is also called para vyoma. This is the causal ocean from which all dualty arises. ( symbolized by vishNu residing on the ocean). This realm is beyond prAkR^itik name and form and beyond any description in terms of earthly analogy. This is the highest vision possible for those still in samsAra.

Even beyond the causal ocean is the cause of all causes, the fourth. Only muktas know what this is and as B.U mentions 'na pretya saMjna asti', one who departs to this realm has no consciousness similar to those in samsAra. It can only be experienced and not described and naturally beyond the limits of science and logic.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

the 4th turya ( some like to write turiya) can be experienced today. Once this 4th is established then Brahma Sakshtkara ( Self Realization) is revealed i.e. turiyatit chetana (sustained turya) is experienced by the native; a purely subjective experience.

Now how does one get there? Though meditation, through His grace (anugraha), through ones insights, the paths are many.
Yet for meditation, one settles down the mind… The notion is to experience sūkṣma gati. What is that ? Refined, subtle, awareness.

It is the subtle march or progression of awareness to finer and finer levels of being, or consciousness. This some call pratimīlana. That is, inward facing ( possessed of the SELF) yet engaged in the world of objects and diversity. The sādhu is never shaken from the diversity of life, as s/he is firmly established in anuttara or Supreme.

We have had lengthly discussions on this matter if you wish to take a look:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2996
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1773

pranams and thank you for your post.