Miracles or Science?

[Sudarshan]

The experience of turya is very rare.

Even very great rishis do not experience it. Even devatas do not always experience it ( see the episode in kena where dieties such as indrA, agni etc loose their divine consciousness and get possesed by pride), so what to speak of humans. Virtually no one in samsAra experiences it though many people have claimed so. Those living in the high realms of brahma lOka get the turya consciousness from time to time but even they do not possess it all the time. Not even our creator chaturmukha brahma experiences it all the time.

It is possible to experience the subtle nature of jAgrat and taijasa in meditation and most people never succeed in going beyond this - such a soul who crosses taijasa is very rare. This is the grim reality. The conditions to cross the taijasa are absolute desirelessness in any earthly object or heavenly pleasures - how many people really meet this condition? Not even most rishis or devatas meet this condition and to find such humans is rarer still.


Many people have visions in meditation or otherwise - but almost all these are only in the realm of jAgrat/taijasa. To see the all knowing Lord in association with time is very rare. To experience the Lord in his absolute nature ( beyond space/time) is even more difficult. We only evolve gradually over tens of thousands of births progressively into the deeper and deeper secrets of God. Since there is no way to know how far we have evolved in the course of our former births, there is no reason why someone cant experience the absolute truth here and now itself. But remember that it is a rare privilege even for the dieties. To claim that Lord reveals himself wholly more easily to some humans but does not do so to evolved dieties is something that is often overlooked - it is an arthavAda.

[sm78]

As they say 'neti neti'. Once u have grasped something in conciousness, realize that this is not that, as knowledge cannot touch that.

The best possible grasp of supreme state in our world, imho, is doing what is the necessary without any attachment bound by ideologies, emotions, purpose, duty and indeed I.

Our existence is a limited reality (which cannot be changed) while supreme is not limited, but we can perhaves grasp the true essence of the lIlA as selfless duty ...

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

The experience of turya is very rare.

Namaste Sudarshan,
I can say without hesitation this turiya is quite normal... It is 'rare' perhaps for the people choosing not to take the time to experience it. My teacher has taught many.

There are people on HDF that are relatively new to Meditation that experience it, my daughter being new to meditation experiences it. Many on this earth experience this 4th, talk of it (not brag) and describe this simple experience. That of restful alertness, the body perfectly still, the mind awake, bright (prākaśa), clear yet in transcendence.

People may find it 'mystical' because they cannot recreate the steps for turiya to be experienced again. For this there are 112 ways you are invited to review in the Vijñāna bhairava kārikā-s. The 112 bhāvanā-s are for all types of people and within their present stage of development i.e.

• śāmbhavopāya [śāmbha + upāya] - this is considered the highest means
• śāktopāya - this is considered the middle means
• āṇavopāya - this is considered entry level

A diamond remains rare only when one chooses not to go looking for for the diamond mine, where all the diamonds reside. This turiya (the diamond) can be found in the gaps of the day (saṃdhyā), between each breath, between thoughts, in the center or madhya ( the diamond mine).

The next state is to stabilize it that is turiyatit chetana (sustained turya). Let me offer the hint of what the wise say to sablize this turiya into turiyatit chetana: withdraw, then withdraw from the withdrawal. There are many that practice this daily.

Siva's grace (anugraha) brings one to this experience. He is too kind to let the family of man wallow in ignorance (avidya). Hence turiya is not much of an academic discussion, its one of experience...

An ounce of practice is better than tons of theory - Svāmi Śivanāṇda

pranams

words used and references

• madhya मध्य - middlemost , intermediate , central, standing between two , impartial , neutral. What is one between? the in and out breath that is calm. Over time it blossoms to turiya
• bhāvanā भावना - reflection , contemplation ; finding by combination or composition ;saturating any powder with fluid , steeping , infusion
• HDF post on Vijñāna bhairava kārikā-s http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2323

[Sagefrakrobatik]

Hari Om
~~~~~



Namaste Sagefrakrobatik
Are you suggesting that miracles (siddhi-s) are performed with that end in mind? Or are you suggesting that those filled with mala us these to support a particualur view or argument?

Sort of. I guess what I'm saying is that from my background Christianity, Christ is a God of miracles, so you will see televangelist say that they heal people of diseases by calling on the name of Christ. Or people who were sick will "testify" that they were healed after they called out to Jesus.

[Sudarshan]

There are people on HDF that are relatively new to Meditation that experience it, my daughter being new to meditation experiences it. Many on this earth experience this 4th, talk of it (not brag) and describe this simple experience. That of restful alertness, the body perfectly still, the mind awake, bright (prākaśa), clear yet in transcendence.

People may find it 'mystical' because they cannot recreate the steps for turiya to be experienced again. For this there are 112 ways you are invited to review in the Vij�āna bhairava kārikā-s. The 112 bhāvanā-s are for all types of people and within their present stage of development i.e.

Please dont take this as a challenging note.

In the light of turya there is the all encompassing wisdom. One who has experienced it is almost all knowing ( just like the Lord) and retains a considerable portion of that knowledge even when he drops down.

Can you testify to the fact that those who claim to experience turya are all knowing? Ask them to first recite the vedas from start to finish ( which is after all paroxa jnana) and then we can decide if they had some aparoxAnubhUti.

The ultimate Wisdom never comes overnight if it were so easy we had mo need for so many shAstras. Look at what Lord Krishna says in the Gita.

manuShyANA.n sahasreShu kashchidyatati siddhaye .
yatatAmapi siddhAnA.n kashchinmA.n vetti tattvataH .. 7-3..

Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

Note what is said ' of thise who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth'. Even those who are aparoxa jnAnins only a very small group has full knowledge of the Lord, ie turya.

In the earlu stages of meditation there are many repeated sightings of the deeper mysteries of nature, and all these experiences happen in the jAgrat and taijasa realms. This is called paroxa jnAna where one is sure of the existance of God without knowing about its nature. ( Like moon is seen as a small disc from earth and a little is known about it). As meditation deepens over a period of time ( spanning many births) at some point there are experiences such as vishvarUpa datshana. As one continues sAdhana one gets the turya consciousness and after plenty of such experiences one gets permanently established in it.

It is possible to encourage others by saying that it is all too easy ( christians and muslime say that just one birth is all you need, it is a hope given by the founders of the religion) but those who have tread the path to the final destination know how long and tedious the journey is. The peace that one obtaines in meditation is not turya, in turya there is knowledge of all that exists and you are not different from the Lord.

[Sudarshan]

As they say 'neti neti'. Once u have grasped something in conciousness, realize that this is not that, as knowledge cannot touch that.

The best possible grasp of supreme state in our world, imho, is doing what is the necessary without any attachment bound by ideologies, emotions, purpose, duty and indeed I.

Our existence is a limited reality (which cannot be changed) while supreme is not limited, but we can perhaves grasp the true essence of the lIlA as selfless duty ...

Well said singhi.

Doing selfless duty brings down the grace of God who will directly instruct you into the deeper mysteries of Yoga just like he did for Arjuna.

This kind of vairAgya is a prerequisite for obtaining any kind of God vision but in our world even swamijis with huge bank balances talk about the ultimate realization of God. Funny.

shAstras do not say that obtaining the highest experience is a common occurrance. It is rarer than the rarest events. It is one in a billion sort of thing. kAtha upanishad compares the path of yogic sAdhana as akin to walking on a razor's edge.

uttishhThata jaagrata
praapya varaannibodhata .
kshurasya dhaaraa nishitaa duratyayaa
durgaM pathastatkavayo vadanti ( 1.3.14)

Arise! Awake! Approach the great and learn. Like the sharp edge of a razor is that path, so the wise say�hard to tread and difficult to cross.

Also, see

na me viduH suragaNAH prabhavaM na maharShayaH .
ahamAdirhi devAnAM maharShINA.n cha sarvashaH .. BG 10-2..

Neither the hosts of gods nor the great sages know My origin or opulences, for, in every respect, I am the source of the gods and sages.

Knowing the Lord is a rare privilege even for gods and the greatest sages. What do I say for humans?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Please dont take this as a challenging note.

In the light of turya there is the all encompassing wisdom. One who has experienced it is almost all knowing ( just like the Lord) and retains a considerable portion of that knowledge even when he drops down.

Namaste Sudarshan
I am not familiar with the measuring stick you choose to use.There is a difference between turīya and turīyatit chetana (sustained turiya).

• To think that this turiya is un-accessble to everyone, allows people just stay on this good earth and wait life-after-life for luck to occur. This is not how it is. Turiya is here today, it is the fabric of consciousness and pervades this entire creation. This is the anugraha or grace of the Lord.
• To talk of the Divine and to be denied the experience is not why the sages and muni's talk of this state of Being. Their offer is not an academic response.
• Why the āgama-s or the Upaniṣad-s ? Just flowery words to bring angst for the sādhu who wishes to experience the Divine? It would be just deaf words.
• That is not the intent of the enlightened or the tradition of Masters (guru-parampara) that wish to assist the aspirant to the Divine. These words come from those that are wise, and established in Brahma Sakshtkara.

Choose as you like - my goal is not to convenience but to inform the folks that wish to experience the Divine, that it is here. Even in the age of Ignorance, turīya is behind every thought - it is omni-present, there for one and all. People talk of the darkness, talk and talk, just bring the light!


Thus the Infinite knowledge you wish to bring up will be a delight to discuss if you wish. For this (full knowledge) comes with the blessing of the Fullness of Being, of Consciousness.


I wish you well and in hopes you may find this turīya within your sādhana.

this whole universe has come into existence just to carry you to God Consciousness. It is not meant to push you down. This universe is meant for your upliftment.'...Swami Laksmanjoo


pranams,

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

Has anyone been able to ask or talk to a person who has siddhis; an advanced yogi or rishi?

I would be most interested in finding out whether the historical events such as the "Churning of the Ocean of Milk" etc. actually took place or are they allegorical stories in the Puranas?

If one is in tUrIyA, one should "know" past, present, and future, including events etc.

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!

Subham.

[Sudarshan]

Namaste,

Has anyone been able to ask or talk to a person who has siddhis; an advanced yogi or rishi?

I would be most interested in finding out whether the historical events such as the "Churning of the Ocean of Milk" etc. actually took place or are they allegorical stories in the Puranas?

If one is in tUrIyA, one should "know" past, present, and future, including events etc.

The siddhis, I presume, would be distractions from consolidating oneself in turIyA!

Subham.

siddhi means an accomplishment. The real siddhi of turya is to enjoy the core of your being which is constant unwavering bliss. Anything else is a by product. Once you have experienced the highest truth, there is no more interest to enjoy lower siddhis. When you have an ocean of water with you, why would you seek a pot of water? Even if you use them you wont use them with a sense of unnatural. siddhis are a distraction only on the journey to the highest but not after you attained it.

[Sudarshan]

I am not familiar with the measuring stick you choose to use.There is a difference between turīya and turīyatit chetana (sustained turiya).

There is not much difference between turIya and sustained turIya because once you reach that stage you directly experience the grace. It is experiencing it even occasionally that is the hard part. You talked of some people who experienced it? How do you know you had turIya? In turIya there is really no notion of "my experience". No one can even say "I experienced turIya". The distinction between the experiencer and experience is not there in turIya.

Wherever anyone has said that "I had this experience" it was only in jAgrat, taijasa or prajna ( prajna is not common either).

• To think that this turiya is un-accessble to everyone, allows people just stay on this good earth and wait life-after-life for luck to occur. This is not how it is. Turiya is here today, it is the fabric of consciousness and pervades this entire creation. This is the anugraha or grace of the Lord.
  

• turIya is certainly here today. It then means everyone experiences infinite bliss all the time? Why it does not happen is because it lies buried very deep under your thoughts ( gross, subtle and causal). If you can break through all these layers you could access it. That is precisely why I said it is not at all easy. Does God or guru go around conferring that on everyone? They are very choosy because you need to really evolve to that stage.
  
  Is it the God's anugraha that people deny his very existance? Is it also his anugraha that people behave like animals? Is it also his anugraha that people are sent to hell ( and sometines for very long times)? The anugraha of God is directly proportional to the level of our inner purity. God certainly loves all but not while his drama of samsAra is on. There is no visible proof to it - just a casual glance at the world is all is needed - full of disease, misery, sorrow.
  
  Mere theory is not useful. turIya is indeed very separate from you at this level. It can be reached only by great efforts and scriptures warn you of any complacency in this regard.
  
  

• To talk of the Divine and to be denied the experience is not why the sages and muni's talk of this state of Being. Their offer is not an academic response.