What is Mind?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste ,
I have been thinking [again!] on this matter of mind. This is top of mind due to my re-reading of the Yoga Sutras.

The 2nd sutra, yogash citta-vrtti-nirodah,

clearly points out that yoga is nirodha [cessation, cancellation, null, dissolution, stillness, emptiness, or extinguished, aresting, etc] of the mind...

Yet what is this thing called mind? I have some ideas, but if you pressed me on it, I could not say with a high level of accuracy what it is, even though I am an active user of this tool. That is I am not the final authority on this.

Heres some things that one may think of when 'mind' comes to mind:

• that which houses one's thoughts and feelings
• that which thinks and reasons
• That which applies intelligence via the intellect faculty
• That which applies creativity
• That which houses past impressions (vasanas)

I do not think the brain is the mind, but is the physial construct that allows the mind to occur. And this brain is part of the total over mind; composed of brain + the nervious system , so its just not in the skull, but thoughout ones body-being.

And is mind consciousness? For me, it is not, even though the mind takes use of this consciousness. That is, conciousness continues in this world with or without mind, yet condensed consciousness becomes ego.

Or does consciousness produce mind?

Can we live without it? Sure seems that yoga sutras suggest this is advisabale. So is there a certain part of mind that is nirodha or 100% gets tossed when Yoga is achieved?

In the Chandogya Upanishad ( chapt 5.1) the pranas are disputing who is superior. Various pranas left i.e. the eyes, ears, speech. MInd also left and came back after one year. Mind said how did you manage without me?
The other pranas said , we lived just like children, unthinking, yet breating, speaking, seeing and hearing.


Any thoughts from your side on what you think Mind is, and in yoga ( union or moksha) , is total mind arrested, or some part may remain?

pranams,

[Znanna]

Namaste,

Coincidentally, this evening, this article was brought to my attention:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...3/Chivers.html

So what has making the observation of striate cortex damage causing blindsight taught us? It certainly shows us that consciousness is only a part of what goes on in the brain, and that consciousness is not needed for behavior. The observation does not, however, tell us where consciousness is located. The observation could support theories of consciousness being in one structure, of various types of consciousness being in different structures with vision's consciousness in the striate cortex, or of consciousness that is not localized at all. We have learned that we cannot answer the question of where consciousness is with only this observation. Although the observation has taught us an important lesson about consciousness, there is a great deal about consciousness that we cannot learn from this observation alone.

ZN

[Kaos]

Namaste yajvan, Zn and all,


This is an intriguing topic. Allow me to jump in and join the conversation.
Perhaps, we can all share our views on this matter.


According to Buddhism, the mind is a sense organ.
The six indriyas, or sense organs are: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.

However, when we speak of "mind", whose mind are we talking about?
I think, it would be helpful to consider who we really are.


Am "i" the mind?

I think not, since my mind changes from time to time.
I do not have the same mind that I had when I was 5 years old.

Therefore, who am "i" and whose mind is this?

Any comments are most welcome.

[yajvan]

Namaste yajvan, Zn and all,


This is an intriguing topic. Allow me to jump in and join the conversation.
Perhaps, we can all share our views on this matter.


According to Buddhism, the mind is a sense organ.
The six indriyas, or sense organs are: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.

However, when we speak of "mind", whose mind are we talking about?
I think, it would be helpful to consider who we really are.

Am "i" the mind?

I think not, since my mind changes from time to time.
I do not have the same mind that I had when I was 5 years old.

Therefore, who am "i" and whose mind is this?

Any comments are most welcome.

Namaste K,
as you mention " am 'i' the mind? ". I will assume lower case 'i' means that which changes all the time, the 'me' that fluxuates, that has ups-and-downs, pleasures and pains, smells, touches, feels, and thsese on any given day can produce all differnt types of emotions and feelings.

I Can then see why Patanjai would say yogash citta-vrtti-nirodah, or nirodha [cease, cancel, extinguish, arrest] the mind... Be without it. If so, then capital 'I' is then predominant - Being, Brahman, Purusa, etc.

Moving the clouds (i) away from the sun (I) would be a physical example. So, 'i' = ego, and all that. 'I' = Brahman, Purusa. Your thoughts [and others who wsih to jump in] ?

And do you think mind is separate from Intellec? t... many times people say the mind, and emotions and Intellect as of they were different compartments... any views on this?


pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste everyone.

Let us have some interactive, free thinking on the human mind and its ramifications, inquiring into its what, where, how, why, and when. Such inquiry might perhaps help us understand better this awesome gift of God to man.

The what, where, how, why, and when aspects of the mind overlap and merge into each other, so let us discuss briefly these individual aspects and then try to have an overall picture of mind.

I have stated what are apparent to my limited knowledge. Members may please elaborate and add clarity to the lines of inquiry initiated here.

What is the Mind?

In common parlance, mind is a faculty, a natural power that can be specialized. It is a conduit or channel for buddhi, the intellect. It is also the channel for the flow of the 'stream of consciousness' a term used by Science and Western philosophy to indicate the random flow of thoughts.

Thoughts! Mind can be described with just this one word. So what is a thought? And who is the thinker?

The dictionary defines the term 'thought' as a 'process of thinking' and 'think' as 'a way to conceive in the mind', and 'conceive' as 'to become pregnant with and develop', 'to understand, apprehend'.

Now we have some idea: a thought is something conceived in the mind into a form to put into action. A thought is normally put into action in words and/or deeds, but the thinker may also desist from any action on a thought. And since 'conceive' also means 'to understand', it is implied that the thinker understands the thoughts he/she puts into action. And then 'conceive' also means 'to apprehend' which is 'to hold in custody', so thinker needs to exercise some restraint on his/her thoughts.

Thoughts flow through the mind ceaselessly like a wild stream. The fluidity of thoughts is better described by the example of a wind rather than water, to account for the capriciousness, expansion and randomness of the flow.

If thoughts flow through the mind, is the mind then just a container that holds and regulates the flow of thoughts? This idea renders some objectivity to mind but mind is more subjective in nature. There is also question of how and wherefrom these thoughts originate and if they are all contained in the mind.

And what about emotions? Some of the emotions are noble like love, compassion and altruism but most are base? Still both kinds originate in the mind and flow to their destination.

Where is the Mind?

In the human body, which is the most conspicuous part of human vestures, two organs are associated with the mind: the brain and the heart. In common parlance, the brain is associated with thoughts and the heart with emotions. Both these organs are embedded in the complex network of the human nervous system that maps to every pore in the human body.

The brain and heart are nothing without the nervous system that connects the five senses for input of impressions and output of expressions. Again, of the five senses, most output expressions are by means of the mouth and bodily action in which the other senses combine to act.

Mind survives death of the body (in the form of frozen impressions or vAsanAs). Therefore, the brain and heart and the nevous system can only constitute the physical apparatus of the subtle mind, which resides in the manomaya koSa (mental vesture) in the sUkSma sharira (astral body).

How does the Mind function?

Mind has four functions: manas is the sensory, processing mind; chitta is the storage of impressions; ahamkAra is the 'I-maker' and buddhi is the intellect/wisdom that decides, judges and discriminates.

Manas is the lower mind that supervises and directs the ten senses. It cannot judge or decide about its expressions which is the job of buddhi. The memory bank of past impressions is the chitta. The ahamkAra, the 'I-maker' is the ego that identifies the specific instance of the other functions with a person. It is the ego that makes the mind subjective. If there is no ahamkAra then the humans will be like robots with no individual selection, idenfication and processing of the other functions. The buddhi is the higher mind that is above emotions and passions.

Why is the Mind given to a human being?

The term man or manuSya (human) itself is derived from manas or mind. Man is called a thinking or rational animal. Why is the mind so important and vital to a human being? The most logical answer to this questions is obtained by the Hindu concepts of karma and reincarnation. The mind is given to the human being to experience the karmic effects of the impressions accumulated over many lives.

When does the Mind actually form in a human being?

How does the mind form and grow in human birth? Obviously, since as Hinduism and many other religions say, the soul enters the embryo the moment it is conceived, the past impressions of earlier births in the chitta part of the mind are hidden in the infant that is born. But the infant's body has to grow to implement the functions of its mind. Two organs and senses that are readily available for the infant to partake in its mental function are its eyes and ears. We may say that for an infant its mind develops with its body.

An infant also dreams! The astral senses required to function in its dream may be said to develop faster than its physical counterparts because the reincarnating ego of the soul acquires the mental and astral vestures earlier to the physical vesture. The astral vesture of the infant has to develop faster than even its mental vesture because the infant needs to express its needs by emotional outputs in the form of crying and smiling.

An infant's thought processes are formed progressively by interaction with the physical world. Therefore, while the chitta might be ready to act, the other three functions that require the body for their expressions can develop only progressively.

An overall picture

Now that we have an idea of what, where, how, why, and when of the human mind, we are now in a position to form the overall picture of the mind, perhaps in this way:

1. The mind has two components: the lower mind and the higher mind. Emotions and passions are processed by manas which is the lower mind. Wisdom and intellect are given by buddhi which is the higher mind. The lower mind is and must be ruled over by the higher. Where the reverse is the case, the human becomes an animal completely.

2. What is the connection of the mind to the soul or Atman? Atman as an individual unit or spark of brahman, who is the Cosmic Consciousness, manifests through three channels: The Will is the icchA shakti or the power of Desire, Wisdom is the jnAna shakti or the power of knowledge and Activity is the kriyA shakti or the power of creation. This triad is further expressed through the channels of mind and senses. In all these expressions, however, the Atman does not undergo any change. It simply remains as a witness, forming the substratum of all the manifestations and expressions.

3. What happens when the mind ceases to function? When the mind is void of all thoughts or just has the thought of its Creator, it merges with the Atman, which is the ultimate spiritual experience and liberation for a human soul. Once the soul attains this state even when it is bound to a body, the mind comes under its full control that ensues destruction of existing past impressions and creation of no new impressions and becomes a channel for the divine will.

For an elaborate discussion on the mind, its functions and control, check http://www.swamij.com/fourfunctionsmind.htm and other articles in the Website.

[yajvan]

Namaste everyone.

In common parlance, mind is a faculty, a natural power that can be specialized. It is a conduit or channel for buddhi, the intellect. It is also the channel for the flow of the 'stream of consciousness' a term used by Science and Western philosophy to indicate the random flow of thoughts.

Thoughts! Mind can be described with just this one word. So what is a thought? And who is the thinker?

The dictionary defines the term 'thought' as a 'process of thinking' and 'think' as 'a way to conceive in the mind', and 'conceive' as 'to become pregnant with and develop', 'to understand, apprehend'.

Namste saidevo,
a good piece of information... may I probe a bit more.

You have mentioned what the mind does...
natural power that can be specialized. It is a conduit or channel for buddhi, the intellect.

Yet I do not see your POV on what it is. Yes, it thinks and applies intelligence for intellect. Yet what is mind by itself, without it doing ? We know it is not the physical construct e.g. brain and nerve tissue, etc.

It seems to me that mind is a word used to group the things mentioned... the mind is a name for collection of mind-stuff.

Hypothesis
Mind is the Σ (sum) of Intellect + Feelings + emotions + thought and thought storage + rationalization + memory +....
When this is bundled together we can call it mind.

Thoughts?

[Eastern Mind]

5 areas of mind
conscious: where the senses are, taking in info
subconscious : the memory mind, organiser of the conscious
sub subconscious: gliches in the subconscious i.e: two strong samskaras create a third even stronger 'blob' of currents
superconscious: direct cognition, intuition
subsuperconscious: memories of the superconscious

Of course it is more complicated than this, awareness flows through each, and stays in each, with the last two depending moreso on spiritual advncement. Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

5 areas of mind
conscious: where the senses are, taking in info
subconscious : the memory mind, organiser of the conscious
sub subconscious: gliches in the subconscious i.e: two strong samskaras create a third even stronger 'blob' of currents
superconscious: direct cognition, intuition
subsuperconscious: memories of the superconscious

Of course it is more complicated than this, awareness flows through each, and stays in each, with the last two depending moreso on spiritual advncement. Aum Namasivaya

Namste EM,
thanks for the post... if I look at the above:
■ we have taking in info.... via the senses. got it.
■ memory and organizing , yep.
■ samskaras (a.k.a. vasanas) - yep.
■ cognition and intuition - yet cognition can happen via the senses, but i see where you are going here.
■ memories of super consciousness, okee-dokee.

Okay - I see the list...where is feelings+ emotions ( not a mind item) + Thinking +intellect?

I would not classify thinking or intellect in with the senses...as those tattvas are data collection that feeds mind.

your take ?

pranams,

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: This is all from Subramuniyaswami's writings. He also put it in 3 strata, instinctive, intellectual, and superconscious. I don't remember as well as I should but within that he explains how the intellect works. Yet there is only one mind. Most of the intellect, as I see it, is just the subconscious storing data from reading books, listening etc., yet experiences also can teach, and a smaller portion of our intellect comes from that, only if we are able to filter those experiences through the superconscious. Aum Namasivaya

[saidevo]

Namaste Yajvan.

It seems to me that mind is a word used to group the things mentioned... the mind is a name for collection of mind-stuff.

Hypothesis
Mind is the S (sum) of Intellect + Feelings + emotions + thought and thought storage + rationalization + memory +....
When this is bundled together we can call it mind.

You cannot define intellect, feelings, emotions, thought, etc. without the mind, because they all are manifestations of the mind. So mind is much more than just a name for the group of these things.

Then what is mind, as a manifest entity? What is the nature and structure of the mind? Is it matter, energy or both? To what extent is it an extension of Individual Consciousness, which is the individual Atman and substratum of the mind and body?

You have mentioned what the mind does...
natural power that can be specialized. It is a conduit or channel for buddhi, the intellect.

Yet I do not see your POV on what it is. Yes, it thinks and applies intelligence for intellect. Yet what is mind by itself, without it doing ? We know it is not the physical construct e.g. brain and nerve tissue, etc.

My POV is that mind is a definite, manifest entity, usually grouped with the ten senses. Buddhi is an individualized unit of Mahat, the Cosmic Intelligence. Atman is an undivided unit of Brahman, the Cosmic Consciousness, that forms the substratum of everything including the mind and remains as just a witness in the background.

To understand the nature and structure of mind, let us try the analogy of the Internet and the PC (personal computer), but like all analogies, this cannot be stretched beyond a point.

The Internet, as a record of good and bad things, can be compared to the Akashic Record of thoughts and actions of mankind, consituting an overall Chitta (storage). Now, the Internet is localized to the PC and its contents flow through the PC's memory and stored in the hard disk. If we consider the PC as an individual unit of consciousness like the Atman, the Operating System that drives the PC is its Will or IcchA Shakti. The various packages of software like the browsers, the word processors, spreadsheets and so on constitute the Activity or KriA Shakti. The knowledge and impressions obtained by the PC in its activities of interaction with the Internet are stored in the hard disk which constitutes the Chitta as matter and JnAna Shakti as energy.

The CPU with its volatile memory and processing units constitute the brain of the PC and the internal clock that ticks at 18.2 times a second constitutes the heart that regulates the cycles of activities in the PC. The input and output devices of the PC such as the keyboard, mouse, monitor, printer, modem, hard disk and optical disk drives constitute the senses of the PC.

What the PC is switched off, it goes into 'deep sleep' with everything frozen. When it is swtiched on, it 'wakes up' and gets ready for its routine activities. Does the PC have a dream state? Perhaps this is the 'standby' mode given by the operating system like Windows to conserve the power and other resources of the PC. In dreams, we use far powerful resources more intensively but there is no wear and tear to the physical body, whose participation in dreams is minimum.

In this set up, how is the 'mind' of the PC structured? The Chitta is the storage of impressions in the hard disk. The CPU as the brain of the PC draws from this storage and plays with it. The internal clock as the heart regulates this activity in cycles, to allow multi-tasking or processing of multiple thoughts. The PC's 'senses' convey impressions and expressions. Once it has a connection, the PC has access to the massive impressions stored on the Internet.

What is lacking in this set up? The Buddhi, or the discriminating part. Since the PC has no intelligence on its own, it has no Buddhi, and this is where the analogy ends. It is for the user to provide the preferences of discrimination.

Thus, the PC's 'mind' has many abstractions: at the highest level, it is thoughts and impressions (the software that retrieves records from the hard disk and the Internet). At an intermediary level, it is hardware, solid matter, comprising ICs, microchips, wires, metal plates, glassware and so on. At the lowest level it is all energy: electrical pulses in the micro chips, electrical energy in its circuitry, magnetic and optical patterns in its storage units, and colorful pixels of light and ink in its output expressions.

In the same way, the human mind is both energy and matter, abstracted at different levels. Just like the PC picks up its starting routines from the hard disk and ROM and always stay connected to them, so does the mind pick up for its activity from the impressions stored in the Chitta. Once it wakes up in the dream or wakeful states, it is active by what is called associative thinking, which seems random, but is actually more akin to the HTML (Hypertext Markup Language) used in Web pages, where the pointers in the main text lead to other texts.

Hinduism and Theosophy accept that there are seven planes or worlds of nature and that each plane has its own Ultimate Physical Atom that constitute the matter of the plane. The ParamANu is the most fundamental of all matter of all planes; it constitues the Adi or Satyam plane, where the matter has its highest vibrational frequency. Matter becomes more and more gross down the other planes, whose UPA is constituted in terms of the number of ParamANu (for the physical plane the atom is supposed to have 49^6 or nearly 14 million ParamAnus).

Mind is thus mapped to the mental plane. All thoughts originate there, acquire what are called thought-forms (we mostly think in figures), these thought-forms descend to the astral plane, acquire the colors of emotion and then propagate in the physical brain, heart and the nervous system for physical action or reaction.

A child builds castles on the sands, modelling after its experiences in the real world. Man builds devices to imitate human mind and intelligence, but they have their own limitations because any man-made device cannot equal or excel the God-made man himself.