Where is the Q?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,
[note there are conceptual errors in this post, and corrected in post 3 below ...that of mis-undersanding of the sound
of ka which sould be kə = क]


As I study sanscrit, [and I am at the sisya-of-the-sisya level] I find the following of interest. I rarely if at all find sanscrit words that have the letter Q in them� I am sure they are out there.

There are many syllables [ aksharam] that are frequently used. Obviously vowels [svaram] are combined with consonants [vyanjanam] yet the elusive Q sound क़ qa ( and for that matter ज़ za) are rarely seen by me.

Any thoughts on this? Have you noticed this also? Or can you think of a few words with q?

When I look to other languages I find Q in favor and used like table salt! I look to the Arab-Muslim-Islam world and there's more q's then you can shake a stick at e.g. Qabd (contract), Qadar, Qadi ( a judge) , and of course Qur'an and many more. The Jews also used Q frequently e.g. Qaynuqa ( a tribe), Qumran (monastic community) and Qorban ( their vows). English? yep plenty of Q's ( yet English is a cornucopia of all other languages); German and French Not so much.
Italian - very little yet I am not fluenent in these languages but listen to people in my travels over the years.

So I am wondering if the phoneme Q has a vibration [sabdha or sound/vibration ]that is not welcomed or conducive? Any opinions on this क़ qa or ज़ za ?



pranams,

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: What would be the universal transliteration spelling of the Q sound? Is it kh? As in a kh blend never heard in English? In English, the dh sound in dharma is not present, except in combinations such as madhatter, or adhoc. I don't think I've ever heard the Q said slowly enough to understand its sound. Usually I just hear 'k' as in Koran, which is the English mishearing of the sound I presume, in translation. All transliteration can be difficult, as our ears are not tuned to hearing new sounds. In Mauritius, during the indentured labour days, names were given to the illiterate by the English, so Murugan, became Moorghen. I have also seen it spelled Murukan, or Murucan, and after listening to someone say it slowly enough, it came out Murukhan, where there is an h after the k sound, which when said quickly sounds like a 'g'. So if indeed the Q is a kh, as I had guessed, then it is present in Tamil, if not in Sanskrit. I'm also not sure how or why Sikh is correctly said? The h at the end makes it particularly tricky, as there is no vowel to continue to. At least we're not talking about the Kalahari Bushmen, whose language of 'clicking' would have given the transliterators nightmares. Interesting subject. Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Yajvan: What would be the universal transliteration spelling of the Q sound? Is it kh? As in a kh blend never heard in English? In English, the dh sound in dharma is not present, except in combinations such as madhatter, or adhoc. I don't think I've ever heard the Q said slowly enough to understand its sound. Usually I just hear 'k' as in Koran, which is the English mishearing of the sound I presume, in translation. All transliteration can be difficult, as our ears are not tuned to hearing new sounds. In Mauritius, during the indentured labour days, names were given to the illiterate by the English, so Murugan, became Moorghen. I have also seen it spelled Murukan, or Murucan, and after listening to someone say it slowly enough, it came out Murukhan, where there is an h after the k sound, which when said quickly sounds like a 'g'. So if indeed the Q is a kh, as I had guessed, then it is present in Tamil, if not in Sanskrit. I'm also not sure how or why Sikh is correctly said? The h at the end makes it particularly tricky, as there is no vowel to continue to. At least we're not talking about the Kalahari Bushmen, whose language of 'clicking' would have given the transliterators nightmares. Interesting subject. Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,
A good ku-uestion (question)... Its of interest to note that the q sound is a derivative of kə. IN my first post I misspoke and used the incorrect sounds ... I am the sisya here on this matter and finding my way. Let me see if I can correct myself and still add value to this post.
That is, ka I said is really kə = क
Now to get to the sound qə , it looks like this: क़ Note the dot at the beginning of the letter... Key point is, new sounds were formulated by diacritics or as we know it an accent mark; it alters the pronunciation of similar words or sounds. This dot is a nukta or bindu i.e. dot. The accommodation was that of a dot beneath the letter representing the nearest approximate sound.


So the kə sound क ( unaspirated) was altered by adding the bindu to it to get the closeness and sound qə or क़

Now corrected we have the following:
क is really the sound kə
क़is really sounded as qə , more like the q sound we know
And z sound is the following... it starts with ख or kʰə and becomes ख़ ;note the bindu. The sound becomes xə more like the z we know.

This now corrects my blemish and we can continue if you wish.

As you mention the following:
Murugan, became Moorghen. I have also seen it spelled Murukan, or Murucan, and after listening to someone say it slowly enough, it came out Murukhan, where there is an h after the k sound or becoming a 'g'.
Yes, this 'k' and 'h' is of interest - like in knot - whose bright idea was that ! the kn has the flavor of aspirated h as if a vowel of ahh, or long a. Jheesh!

Yet for the k devangari to get to the q sound is really shooting for the sound found in Quaker. the 'qu' is the sound trying to be replicated with qə or क़
I think its the w ( double u or uu) that is the pickle that devangari is trying to solve for IMHO. I will let others correct me.

Let me stop here... we can go deeper once we bat these sounds about a bit.
I always has a great apprecaition for tradition of handing down knowledge from teacher to student ( Guru-sisya) by mouth. To insure the intonations are correct. Putting this stuff in a book causes mischief. Just think of memorzing the Rig ved ( 10,552 verses) and getting all the inflections correct.

pranams

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: Please help me with the sounds. The symbols are far beyond me, as I don't study Sanskrit. What is an English equivalent of the Q in Qatar, or is it just the k or kw sound, and the Q is just there from some historical translation. As I understand it, English could get by well without the Q (use kw) or the C (k or s) or the X (ks) for that matter. But we also have the 5 digraphs, ch sh th TH and zh . Now I am thinking of the Mandarin student in my class this year, (a first for me) His first name is spelled Xiu, but I have yet to hear it clearly enough to be able to say it correctly back to him. For all us 'stupid' English speakers, he goes by 'Shawn'.
Does Sanskrit have vowels changing by the length of time you hold it? Tamil does, and in transliteration kat would have another word kaat, which most English ears would have a very difficult time distinguishing. I do believe every sound has a vibratory rate, and color attached to it, so the ancients who developed Sanskrit were definitely on to something. Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: I'm sure you know this already, but a browse found me tons of universal transliteration (wow, incredibly complicated, even includes the clicks I referred to earlier) and also a listening page in sanskrit.com where you can listen to the correct pronunciation of many common slokas. Have fun. Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Yajvan: In order to show the complications further, look at this:

om tat savitur vareNyaM
bhargo devasya dh�mahi
dhiyo yo nah prachoday�t

Om Bhur bhuvah svah
Tat savitur varenyam
Bhargo Devasya dheemahi
Dheeyo yonah prachodayaat

Aum bhur bhuvah svah

Tat savitur varenyam

Bhargo devasya dhimahi

Dhiyo yo nah pracodayat.

Aum Bhur Bhuva Suvah
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Naha Prachodayat

Note that all four are different. What is one to do? (lol) and this is just one simple but meaningful sloka. All copied from various sites on the internet, and each one the 'correct' version. Aum.

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Yajvan,

The �Q� sound is found in Sanskrit, as kva.

क्व

But none of the following characters are actually used in Sanskrit:
क़ ख़ ग़ ज़ ड़ ढ़ फ़
qa kha ġa za ṛa ṛha fa

They only appear in Hindi approximations of foreign words.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Yajvan: I'm sure you know this already, but a browse found me tons of universal transliteration (wow, incredibly complicated, even includes the clicks I referred to earlier) and also a listening page in sanskrit.com where you can listen to the correct pronunciation of many common slokas. Have fun. Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,
yes a wealth of knowledge is here on the web... yet nothing beats the sound of the tongue and listening. I am awaiting some sanskrit classes at the temple.

thank you for the reference site.

pranams,

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

The �Q� sound is found in Sanskrit, as kva. क्व

But none of the following characters are actually used in Sanskrit:
क़ ख़ ग़ ज़ ड़ ढ़ फ़
qa kha ġa za ṛa ṛha fa

They only appear in Hindi approximations of foreign words.

Namaste sarabhanga,
thank you for the info... that is what I found also... the sound e.g. क़ is really more for converting foreign words. Intersting for me. This light research I am doing is on sound and form.

pranams