Science and Religion - Friend or Foe?

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste ,

I was just thinking ....oh no!

What is the beef between science and religion? [lets use religion as the metaphor for spirituality]. I have seen people get absolutely sideways over this. A recent article in Discovery Magizine had various scientists in revolt over the theory of Intelligent Design. They were forming a consortium for scientists to participate in so as to upsurp this whole notion.

Now from my side, I have not spent enough time with this to form an opinion on Intelligent Design, yet only looked at the level of ire it instilled in some of these scientific folks.

So what's the deal... not with this Intelligent Design, but with the notion of science and spirit (religion) co-existing and benefiting? I do not view it as a challange of extremes by that of scope and balance.

How so? It seems to be two ends of the same pursuit of truth. One end is subjective e.g. the SELF, Aham is completely subjective experience i.e. turning inward. When one explains it, it is not in terms of quantitative data, but a qualitative nature.

On the other end we have ~pure objectivity, that of measurements and discernable facts that can be calculated, repeated, observed and quantified. Yet the same truths are being pursued by science as by spirit i.e. our origins, how things work, where we're going, how all 'this' works. This objectivity could be to the point of absolute unawareness of the SELF, completely lost to the field of prakriti with no sense of Aham. This is called abuddha: a or 'not' + bhu 'to become or exist' ; or budh ' to elighten , to know'. So it is without the knowledge of enlightenemt or SELF referral.

The languages between science and spirit are different. The rhetoric of spirituality as of today, is not a scientific dialog, yet still point to the same ideas on truth...I do see this changing as of late.

With science, the concern is that of measurable objectivity and the rigor of scientific method. Yet isn�t interesting that new science or discovery needs to start with an idea? The light (budh) of the intellect. Ideas are the realm of the subjective, internal to ones mind.

An impulse of a thought, a slight intent that brings the flood of new ideas. So the scientists take this and create their hypothesis and see if they create the proper environment to prove or disprove the theory. Yet it started in consciousness and they are applying dhi shakti, a fundmental element of Brahman, pure intelligence, pure consciousness that bubbles up ( is applied) to become individual consiousness and intelligence.

On the spiritual side, it starts in consciousness already. The value of this is awareness applied and used as the core foundation of the spiritual pursuit. Yet would it not make sense for more scientific investigation into the workings of consciousness? It's being done no doubt, yet this is where science and spirit intersect (IMHO).

It seems there is a cycle that takes place:

• Conflict - that is, this spiritual stuff and this science stuff just does not mix. a.k.a. you guys are nuts syndrome. Because of this, the next phase happens;
• Independence - you folks stay on your side of the wall and we will stay on ours a.k.a I am taking my ball and going home! No connection.

Then over time, one begins to question, or run out of ideas and starts looking for new vistas to assist in thinking.

• Dialog - people begin to talk and share ideas back and forth.
• Integration - new ideas are incorporated into the scientific and spiritual community� examples like 'What the bleep' movie that takes a view of this universe, who we are and how we act and adds in quantum mechanics. Some interesting books from the science community e.g. the Tao of Physics, Dancing with Wu Li Masters, The Study of Natural Science with Reference to Theravada Buddhism And Advaita Vedanta. Even one by A.de. Riencourt called the Eye Of Siva which he says ' The new view of the Universe appears to be largely in accord with Eastern metaphysics'. There are more books on the genetics side of science which one can consider too.

If we look to Einstein and Newton - these people are the giants in Science, well grounded in the Intelligence of the Cosmos. Without them our world would not be the same. Their ideas were concepts brought to the forefront by insight and brilliance�this is what the spirit of man can do.

So ya got to ask what really is the beef? Perhaps that we are not going fast enough to get to this integration? From this, IMHO, it then is infused into society as the norm. This is how society is changed in the long term. The infusion ( once again) of science and spirit, not for the few but for the many.

Any thoughts and observations are warmly welcomed.

pranams,

[atanu]

Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste ,
I was just thinking ....oh no!

What is the beef between science and religion? ----pranams,

Pranam,

You are not thinking of any pickle now? Why change to beef?

How one knows the knower who knows everything? This is how Brihadaraynaka addresses this beef. Many scientists and doctors acknowledge this. I think objective and rational scientists have problem with those religionists who want to invade the world in the name of intelligent design etc.

A far as I know, Sarabhanga is a scientist and so am I and so are you possibly. Enquiring mind will definitely come to an understanding of its purpose eventually. Oppenheimer, Hiesenberg, Einstein, and the authors you have mentioned were all convinced of the root consciousness -- which is immeasurable, since it only measures and knows.

There are haters on both sides, that also was discussed earlier in a post between sarabhanga and kaos. Among scientists there are foes and different dharma schools spill blood. The opposite, a scientist can be good spiritual man, unlike a blind bigot or a spiritualist can give immense respect to scientists.


Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Pranam,

You are not thinking of any pickle now? Why change to beef?

How one knows the knower who knows everything? This is how Brihadaraynaka addresses this beef. Many scientists and doctors acknowledge this. I think objective and rational scientists have problem with those religionists who want to invade the world in the name of intelligent design etc.

There are haters on both sides, that also was discussed earlier in a post between sarabhanga and kaos. Among scientists there are foes and different dharma schools spill blood. The opposite, a scientist can be good spiritual man, unlike a blind bigot or a spiritualist can give immense respect to scientists. Om

Namaste atanu,
pickles, beef, go figure...

You make a good point "rational scientists have problem with those religionists who want to invade the world in the name of intelligent design etc.". - keep out of my field of expertise, I am the owner of this...is the mind set.
My teacher has said this is small small thinking. Brahman is so vast there is room for every one to rejoice and advance in the knowledge.

Ultimately it is coming to know the knower who knows everything. Neither scientist or spiritualist is the owner, yet this is another mala/blemish of the human condition, no? Thinking I own this, and this boundary is mine, and my house is really my possession.

thank you for the post... I think I will take a look a bit further on this Intelligent Design stuff and get a POV; you have any thoughts on this?

pranams,

[Znanna]

Namaste,

Intelligent Design (ID ... similar to ED) is a construct put forth by some evangelical political, eg American Family Council, (unfortunately not an oxymoron) organizations who are insidiously promoting propagandizing evangelism in the public schools and other organizations here.

Simply put, the notion is that since there appears to be order in nature (debatable as the perception of order isn't necessarily natural, eh?), that therefore there must have been a GOD which put this order out as a precept. How could things evolve, without a plan?

IMO, just as duality as a precept is a result of Cartesian mathematics and the thinking that derived from same ... the notion of ID is some sort of antithesis to Chaos theory as representative of the last vestiges of the previous mindset seeks analog for justification.


ZN

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Simply put, the notion is that since there appears to be order in nature (debatable as the perception of order isn't necessarily natural, eh?), that therefore there must have been a GOD which put this order out as a precept. How could things evolve, without a plan? ZN

Hello ZN,

In my observations I see lots of order ... let me also use the word structure and intelligence. Intelligence orders and structures. I see the seasons come on time, I see earth's orbit and the planets subscribe to mathmatical rules. I 'see' matter organized in a way that has components to it. A hierarchy of order.

When I plant a watermelon seed I get just that , not an apple or a cherry tree. This is the order I see. Certain rules of nature that are kept e.g. cause and effect.

I also see chaos theory, yet there is order to how that too unfolds. Lets say the decomposition of uranium, it is decomposing to its half life; Lets look at a body decomposing - it to goes though a set of rules or laws on how this decomposition takes place. All the elements are headed for lead if I recall correctly...the march in an orderly fashion to this element.

Even in chaos, the randomness has a pattern, an order or a set of rules the govern dis-order and chaos. If something goes flying out from the center of a star or a galaxy or ejected in a random manner out of a human cell , the laws of velocity, attraction, resistance , gravity all apply.

Lets not get so cosmic - how about a balloon that is let go, letting the air out to propel the balloon. To us, the path is random, yet to analyse it and chart the course of pressure, wind velocity, bla bla bla, the balloon took the path of least resistance to move in space... random to the observer, yet filled with order and the laws of physics.

I see this as the intelligence of this Universe managing it on every level.
I see Creation ( Brahma at work) , the maintenance of this universe by Visnu and I see its destruction (Rudra). Beautiful order. Now are these deities or are they names we give to macro-qualities of nature. I will leave that your discretion.

I see this order in breath, walking, blinking, etc. in each case there is a creation-maintenance and destructive part.

God then as a part of this Intelligent Design, perhaps, is this Infinite Intelligence that does not even need 'mind' to manage this whole creation, as intelligence is within every cubic inch of creation as consciousness, that brings this perfect order with ease. Even suggesting the word 'manage' infers effort ... this is not the correct word. It is His will of Paramasiva...effortlessness.

Curving back onto Myself I create again and again.

pranams,

[atanu]

This is a very complicated thing 'Order vs. Chaos'.

Cause-effect is not beyond mind, whereas the being to whom the order or chaos is being ascribed is simply beyond the mind. I feel that the following is pertinent here.

Svet. Upanishad

V-13: Realizing Him who is without beginning or end, who creates the cosmos in the midst of chaos, who assumes many forms, and who alone envelops everything, one becomes free from all fetters.

Lets see what ZN brings out.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

This is a very complicated thing 'Order vs. Chaos'.
Om

Namaste,


Usually when people talk of chaos they introduce Entropy.
An older definition of this was defined as a change to a more dis-ordered
state, the way of the universe as it ages. Today with a better understanding, its now redefined as the dispersal of energy.


These are the laws of thermodynamics - most people are familur with them i.e. the conservation of energy and all that.
ref site for those inquiring minds: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=73383


pranams

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,
Usually when people talk of chaos they introduce Entropy.
An older definition of this was defined as a change to a more dis-ordered
state, the way of the universe as it ages.

Namaste,

I thought to finish this thought... What do I think then is chaos? it is not the randomness of the Universe. 'Random' follows laws, yet to the casual observer it looks outta control and total chaotic.

For me chaos would be that the laws of nature are not reliable.

• Today I plant a tomato seed and get a pumkin... I am okay with that as long as each time I did this I got a pumkin. It is when you plant a tomato and one day you get a pumpkin, the next day you get a palm tree.
• Today I put gas in my car and I get 50MPG, the next day I put gas in and it freezes the engine and it falls part.
• Today a female dog has puppies, tomorrow she gives birth to a kangaroo.
• Today the earth completes a day in 24 hrs, tomorrow it takes 100 hrs to rotate 360�

That is chaos...

pranams,

[Nuno Matos]

Namaste Yajvan


" For me chaos would be that the laws of nature are not reliable"

I think that the created laws of man are different from Nature laws at least in our present age that we all grieve towards power .
There is an interesting sociologist called Edgar Morin that has a book on the subject of Human Nature the book is called by the author, " Human nature or the Lost Paradigm". Were he states that humans somehow lost their root connection with nature when they started to look for artificial paradises out of a god given world. With that come education, city's, trade, power and of course different laws come to justify duality and the one's capable of imposing their artificial power over other's. So now a days everybody is lost. Time is like acid!
Science says now a day's trough the "Quantum paradigm" that what was once take as granted is not true at least at a quantum level. In fact now a day's the only possible affirmation is that the Universe is no more ruled by ordained laws in an ordained universe but the rule is the one of Kaos.
Kaos in unity. Some prefer to say; " From here to eternity. Love is the Law."

Om Jaya Kali Ma!
Hara, Hara-Mahdeva, Shiv-Shamboo!!!

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan

I think that the created laws of man are different from Nature laws at least in our present age that we all grieve towards power .

Namaste Nuno,
Can you give me an example of a created law of men so I can follow your idea...thank you.