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Thread: Sleeping Absolute?

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    Sleeping Absolute?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,


    It is said that the Absolute is birthless [ajati]... perfect stillness, Fullness without a trace of two. It is aksasa - a or 'not' + ksi or to 'destory/perish' so it is non-decaying , immutable, invincible. We know this to be true...and I do not think otherwise.

    So with that let me ask then. Why [and perhaps how] does this Absolute, perfect Consciounsess manifest? Why does creation take place if there is perfect Being, perfect stillness, pure consciousness, perfect fullness? What could IT [Aham] possibly want to do?

    Any thoughts on this matter?


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 21 November 2007 at 07:13 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    What could IT [Aham] possibly want to do?
    IT is no other that your Self....

    YOU ARE THAT....

    You ARE consciousness...

    Is there a separate you that is here?

    Hari Om,
    Soul

    From where does the "I' thought come...
    Go to That...


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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Soul View Post
    IT is no other that your Self....

    YOU ARE THAT.... You ARE consciousness... Is there a separate you that is here?

    Hari Om,
    Soul

    Namste Soul,
    Sure.... what you say is true. Yet what was being pondered was
    what makes the aksara stur to manifest?

    The ocean is perfectly calm, full, with no desires... what is the reason for the wave to arise or a ripple to happen [ this is a metaphor and I am not including the wind or earth tremors, all that stuff].

    The absolute is perfect bliss so says Vedanta (Satchiananda). If so, why then does the Absolute rise up?


    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Namaste Yajvan.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajavan View Post
    Why [and perhaps how] does this Absolute, perfect Consciounsess manifest? Why does creation take place if there is perfect Being, perfect stillness, pure consciousness, perfect fullness? What could IT [Aham] possibly want to do?
    Here is a pointer to what we already discussed on this subject in HDFpuri.

    Earlier discussions

    This very same question was asked by Nirotu here in HDFpuri in slightly different words in the thread, "Creation and Advaita" that he originated:
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846

    Many of us took exception to the question as we found out that Nirotu was reviling Advaita in favour of the Christian flavour of Dvaita thus:

    It looks like an oxymoron to me. If Advaita is all there is, then there was no necessity of creation! If the starting point and ending point of a man’s life is the same (Advaita), I think that the process of creation itself takes on a new meaning that does overshadow Advaita. In light of this reality that creation indeed took place, where does Advaita address this reality? In my view Advaita truly limits its ability to address this point in a meaningful way!

    Einstein’s famous quote "God does not play dice" is very meaningful in that it implies there is an intent and specific purpose to His creation, which certainly is not with any malicious intent. From an Advaitic standpoint this intent and purpose is lost completely when God created us!

    Therefore, we cannot deny that Dvaita has come into being at the moment of creation. Let us exchange and explore the reason and meaning behind the drive to creation. In fact, this was my very first earnest post but, unfortunately it was hijacked to another extreme.
    Some Scriptural References

    Refuting Nirotu, Sudardhan quoted the Mandukya Karika of Gaudapada thus:

    I-7. Those who think of creation hold it as the manifestation of God's power; while others fancy that (wrongly imagine) creation as same as dream and illusion.

    I-8. Creation is the mere will of the Lord, say those who thought out well the process of creation, but those who rely upon time hold that the birth of beings is from time.

    I-9. Some others hold that creation is for the enjoyment of God, yet others say that it is for His sport. But it(creation) is the very nature of the resplendent Being, for what desire can he have whose desire is all fulfilled?

    Aitareya Upanishad says:

    I-i-1: In the beginning this was but the absolute Self alone. There was nothing else whatsoever that winked. He thought, “Let Me create the worlds.”

    Interestingly, I came across this quote from Atanu in the Hindunet forum in a discussion on how Dvaita would interpret certain scriptural sayings (I haven't gone thorough the discussion fully):

    http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showfl...5&o=&fpart=all

    Rig Veda x.129 is clear on the subject that no one can know the answer, and that might include THAT!

    6. Who knows, in sooth? Who here can tell?
    Whence it became? Whence this creation?
    The gods came later than its creation,
    So who can tell whence all this arose?

    7. From whom arose this whole creation,
    Whether he produced it or not he;
    Who in highest heaven surveys it,
    He knows it well or even not he.

    Brahma Sutra 32-33 says it is his lIla (sport) since Brahman has no motive for creation:

    na prayojanavattvat / Lokavattu lilakaivalyam

    A Possible Answer to a Similar Question

    Thus no one can know the why or how of the First Creation. But if the question is why Brahman perpetuates the Creation, cycle after cycle, the answer could be that He wills and desires the Jivas that are dormant in him after Pralaya to be reborn and meet their karmic commitments. Brahman in effect has an obligation to satisfy the tR^iSNA (thirst, strong desire) of the Jivas to live their lives.

    Tirukkural says:

    339. Death is like falling asleep,
    and birth is like waking from that sleep.

    Since we as Jivas are not different from Atman who is Brahman, we have our own daily cycles of creation and dissolution when we wake up and fall in deep sleep. After a session of deep sleep, our tR^iSNA of past impressions makes us wake up and continue the daily cycle of life.

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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Namaste,
    ----
    So with that let me ask then. - Why does creation take place if there is perfect Being, perfect stillness, pure consciousness, perfect fullness? ----
    Any thoughts on this matter?
    pranams,
    Namaste,

    In the context, I have found the meditation/query/vichara 'What has been created?' revealing.

    If one inspects the original question: "Why does creation take place if there is perfect Being, perfect stillness, pure consciousness, perfect fullness? ----", one will see that creation is pre-supposed.

    An individual ego, which has not been created but which is apparent, is pre-supposing that there is a creation in the form of change of the immutable. Thus a dekko into the immutable can only solve this riddle.

    Regarding purpose of creation, scriptures say different things. Svet. Up. says it is secret. Brahma Sutras say that it is Lila.

    Mandukya says that the states exist (and not creation) for the enjoyment of Atma alone.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    Thank you Soul, saidevo and atanu for your insights...
    This notion of creation ( to me ) clearly suggests that the Unmanifest, this akshara, is not a void, or a massive level of pure existence, of consciousness just sitting there.

    It suggests that there is a resonance there, a throb ( some call this spanda, a vibration). From this spanda springs forth creation. Yet that said, there is no difference between the unmanifest or manifest other then a change in its spanda.

    Let me explain this POV if I may. The unmanifest ( this pure Being) does not create something throw it over the fence as 'created' and say my work is done here, there you go and let me go back and rest again.

    Both the manifest and unmanifest is the same Being. What atanu suggests is a profound insight (IMHO).
    An individual ego, which has not been created but which is apparent, is pre-supposing that there is a creation in the form of change of the immutable.
    We think due to change, creation from nothing to someting has occured and there is two - a before an after; a unmanifest and manifest state. Yet perhaps it is the same Being, just at a different state of spanda.

    To the passer-by [ jivas coming and going all day long!] one says, this must be creation. Yet to the wise with an unblemished eye ( the muki) sees it as all consciousness and still in ITs same form, just a different ( saidveo's words here) frequency i.e. spanda.

    And why does this Being (Siva) create - saidevo and atanu offer some wonderful slokas. I do not have the answer and must always look to the shastras for their guidance...

    Yet one person suggested, This Being ~created~ or unfolded the universe, to know more about itself. It, through Its natural Supreme Intelligence produced the fruit of this universe , other beings ( with bodies and without, the devata) - so it could completely express itself and know more about itself. This is why knowledge is so core to all here on earth and is celebrated in the shastras. A natural desire to know more , to express more, is that Being's desire to know more and experience more about its own self, expressed in us. As in the end He is the final enjoyer of all of our actions and we are his agents.


    The Upanishads say He ( Brahman ) created this universe and then entered into it. This is brilliant as He never left or had to enter into it (the universe) as this creation has been Him all along. No entering or exiting required, as IT is all Being, all Brahman.


    ... just one view of this. I am hoping others have opinions and insights and we can continue the conversaion.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 November 2007 at 01:20 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7
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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Namaste Yajavan and others.

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    It suggests that there is a resonance there, a throb ( some call this spanda, a vibration). From this spanda springs forth creation. Yet that said, there is no difference between the unmanifest or manifest other then a change in its spanda.
    The spanda on the unmanifest suggests the analogy of the film bubble packaging with air pockets--used for packaging integrated circuit boards; only thing is, here the bubbles are throbbing, moving, merging with each other and changing shapes while the film itself is still. The bubbles are also not full-sized, only tiny hemispheres. The Cosmic Consciousness of That which is film is manifest at every bubble and partakes their aggregation, segregation and disintegration. In fact Theosophy views the ParamANu (the ultimate atom of the Adi plane) as such bubbles and the matter of other planes as progressive aggregations of such bubbles (at 49^2 of the previous stage).

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan
    Yet one person suggested, This Being ~created~ or unfolded the universe, to know more about itself. It, though its natural Supreme Intelligence produced the fruit of this universe , other beings ( with bodies and without, the devata) - so it could completely express itself and know more about itself. This is why knowledge is so core to all here on earth and is celebrated in the shastras. A natural desire to know more , to express more, is that Beings desire to know more and experience more about its own self, expressed in us. As in the end He is the final enjoyer of all of our actions and we are his agents.
    I think this view is a strong possibility. Since the Rig Veda says even That may not know the why of creation, That has the desire to know more of itself, which is not just desire in the ordinary sense, but its very nature because the Ultimate is only Pure Knowledge, Pure Existence and Pure Bliss. For that Pure Knowledge it perhaps sacrifices some of the purity of its existence by smearing Maya over a part of it, which never affects its Pure Bliss.

    I used to wonder why Shiva even as the very Brahman is always in meditation and what is there for Him to meditate? Thank you, Yajvan for suggesting an answer. By the bye, who is that 'one person' who suggested this view?

  8. #8

    Smile Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,


    It is said that the Absolute is birthless [ajati]... perfect stillness, Fullness without a trace of two. It is aksasa - a or 'not' + ksi or to 'destory/perish' so it is non-decaying , immutable, invincible. We know this to be true...and I do not think otherwise.

    So with that let me ask then. Why [and perhaps how] does this Absolute, perfect Consciounsess manifest? Why does creation take place if there is perfect Being, perfect stillness, pure consciousness, perfect fullness? What could IT [Aham] possibly want to do?

    Any thoughts on this matter?


    pranams,
    Om Shirdi Sai Ram.
    Namaste Yajvan.
    Pandit mention that, like how some of us while realxing raise our hands or strech our legs a little bit to exercise, similarly, when Maha Vishnu was relaxing and wanted to spend some time,he created the universe and was a part of the leelas.

  9. #9
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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    By the bye, who is that 'one person' who suggested this view?
    Namaste seidevo and Arvind for your posts....

    Saidevo, the 'one person' I cannot recall , as the knowledge was discussed back in the early '80's. I was with a group of other sadhus at a satsang and this notion came up from one of the speakers at the time.

    It has stayed with me for 27 years as I thought it a great insight.

    And Arvind's suggestion of Visnu's leela's fits in to the spanda discussion.

    AS I read and study more of this there is much talk on this progression to manifest. Yet in all cases the wisdom suggests that paramasiva is not just dormant; that there is this SELF-referral for Him and it goes by the name visarsha. We have heard that the Absolute is infinite, steady, immutable, and we hear that it is parkash ( or luminous ) in itself. Yet this notion of vimarsha , this Self-referral , some call Self-Surveying is a beautiful notion of liveliness in the Absolute. This vimarsha is also known as svatantrya or iccha shakti, the independent will of the Absolute, of paramasiva. The rishi's that live this state, like Ksemaraja who gives a commentary on the Siva Sutras suggests this as the Heart of the Supreme Lord calling it hrdayam parameshitih.

    This vibration or spanda then, Divine will, as we sometimes wish to call it Shakti. Siva+Shakti are one in Paramasiva, the Absolute. The throb, this spanda in the Absolute, Pure Consciousness ,Pure Aham, then is the aspect of Divine will and that of Shakti in the Absolute.

    This is a slightly different view of Pure Absolute, Pure Niguna Brahman one hears of. We hear that Niguna as Pure unblemished, perfect stillness, perfect balance, all light all Being. Yet in this explanation we miss the vibration ( or as Arvind suggests, to stretch and yawn a bit)...
    WE know from our readings and discussion then that the Absolute is not just 'flat line' inert, but has play within it.

    Yet for the experincer it may be experinced as perfect balance, perfect silence, till one becomes comfortable in that state (moksha) and can then probe a bit to see , and compare and contrast the experience.
    May we all get to that state of being an exponent of Reality, and be abve to move within that silence and be part of spanda.

    ॐनमःिशवाय

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Sleeping Absolute?

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~~



    Namste Soul,
    Sure.... what you say is true. Yet what was being pondered was
    what makes the aksara stur to manifest?

    The ocean is perfectly calm, full, with no desires... what is the reason for the wave to arise or a ripple to happen [ this is a metaphor and I am not including the wind or earth tremors, all that stuff].

    The absolute is perfect bliss so says Vedanta (Satchiananda). If so, why then does the Absolute rise up?

    pranams,

    Hi All,

    I am not speaking from scriptural knowledge.... my knowledge from scriptures is limited.

    In fact a lot of the scriptural reference goes over my head... but I do appreciate you guys want to understand from these teachings....

    That's no problem....

    My challenge is to communicate in a way that may be understood by you guys here, who love to read and decode the scriptures....


    The way I see things is very simplistic....

    In reference to your question Yajvan, my response is quoted above , and I'd like to add some more in the attempt to shed light...

    By writing "IT is no other than yourself" to your question of "What could IT possibly want to do?"..... I mean you ARE consciousness, so why imagine you are a separate identity that wants to know why it is here?

    The ocean IS you...

    The answer to your question is not found in scriptures... it is not even found in the mind...

    Look into yourself for that answer, because you ARE IT...

    Love to All,
    Soul

    From where does the "I' thought come...
    Go to That...


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