Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 69

Thread: Omniscience In Varying Degrees

  1. #1
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Omniscience In Varying Degrees

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,

    I was watching a program about a person that could see the future, yet only his future, the actions that involved him. That triggered a thought about what one can see and how it may be different then being omniscient.

    I have not thought about this fully till today and thought others may have some idea or would care to critique this POV offered.

    Omniscient or omniscience is having complete, unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving and knowing all things, all outcomes.

    One part of omniscience is being able to see forward and backwards in time. For me, the person with omniscience has no time boundary at all, for it is always 'Now' for this being, but lets not go there for this conversation.


    For the individual with this ability, lets call him a seer, it may be possible to see the future, the results of actions taken today, and how they sprout in the future. ( Future here can be days, weeks, years, hours, and perhaps lifetimes).

    A basic premise
    The future is the logical progression of a set of actions that takes place today and culminates in a conclusion. This conclusion can be big or small, but the notion here is it concludes and may be the input for a new set of actions.

    So let me build this idea before coming to an opinion and POV at the end.

    Lets start simple
    Lets say I wish to set sail from point A to point B. It has a beginning and an end. I predict that I will fulfill this action of going from A to B without issue.

    Now I ask someone who may have this ability, the seer, one with premonition, and ask what will transpire. If I were the seer I would ask , 'of which action would you like me to 'see forward' on? ' The reason why I say this, is all actions have a root action that starts the conditions to unfold or move forward. The first domino, if you will.


    So I inform this seer I am going sailing from A to B. With that in the Seer says, 'yes you will arrive at point B, but be aware there will be some rough seas ahead and be sure to pack accordingly.'

    The notion here is like dominoes - you set up the dominoes and tip over one, then the rest that are in line fall forward, knocking them down, yet all triggered by the initial push . The Seer, sees the first domino and the last, and all the actions in between, we do not. We just see the first domino and we want the last domino falling down at Point B.

    That is one version of premonition. One action and the results that transpire, yet the seer cannot tell you the ending unless he knows the initial action i.e. sailing the boat as input for his premonition to work.

    Pretty straight forward action as far as actions go and sailing. Lets say you ask the seer a bit more complex question

    Next level of complexity
    Now we ask the seer, I am starting a family ( lets call 'em Family A) . I am getting married and hope to have children, tell me what you see in 20 years time.

    We have given the seer the input, but now we have increased the complexity manifold. We have added multiple rows of dominoes to the equation. There may be multiple Y's in the road (intersections) and the dominoes branch off left and right, and other Y's in the road are encountered and interact.

    Now seeing the future is a bit more difficult ( to me ) because multiple first actions take place within the chain of domino's falling, yet they all have the same root action, the same initial domino chain that started it.

    Pending the power of the seer to follow the chain he may say yes you are married, have 5 children, and at one junction point 3 children go to college the other two do not; you move to a new location, etc etc. The complexity is substantial for just one family. Now do I think this is omniscience? No, not yet.

    Omniscience
    Let stick with the dominoes analogy as it works well for the initial action and chain of events. The difference with Omniscience is, the Seer knows every possible action and every possible permutation that can happen for all actions, all beings, all the time with 100% certainty of the outcome of all ones actions. This is the omniscience I have thought of.

    That is, every thought of '... well it depends' is comprehended in this Being's thinking without effort or fuss. All the intersecting points of Family A with any and every other Family, individual, person, place or thing on this planet is comprehended.

    The next level of omniscience ( I am just building it to get an appreciation of this omniscience) is all the intersecting points mentioned above with Family A, and all other families of all species, persons, places, and things, but for the total universe, for all time to come.

    This is why Krsna says unfathomable is the course of action ( Chapt 4.17 Bhagavad gita). There are so many dominoes that criss-cross that the permutations + combinations are innumerable.

    We think actions are individual events, but on a grand scale there could have been muti-line triggers in the set of dominoes that we interact with, we just do not see it. The complexity and influence of actions is enormous.

    So now who can possibly comprehend all this, and be able to see the final outcome of actions, individually and collectively? I say collectively as we as a world society have a collective consciousness and a collective set of actions that are far reaching.

    That is the level of omniscience fully bloomed and its fullest is found in Isvara¹; omniscience in its infinite fullness.

    For us, as humans we may have parts of this ability, rishi's and seers have various magnitudes of this blossoming. Even some people that are 'regular folks' have a sliver, a fraction of seeing one action and its conclusion. Yet the full expression Of this omniscience is the domain of Isvara. That is why Krsna can say the following with confidence, as this omniscience is in complete bloom within Him:

    There never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men.
    Nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be... Krsna to Arjuna Chapter 2.12

    Any thoughts on this or your ideas are warmly accepted.


    pranams

    1. In Him (Isvara) the seed of Omniscience has reached its utmost development which cannot be exceed. -
    Yoga Darśana of Pātañjali muni. Chapter I, Samadhi Pada, sutra 25
    Last edited by yajvan; 07 December 2009 at 10:20 PM. Reason: added foot note 1: Yoga Darśana of Pātañjali muni
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2

    Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    NagaTwins2.jpg

    -----------------------

    From "A New Model of he Universe". (page 494)

    "There would be no possibility of thinking of the evolution of humanity, if the possibility did not exist for individually evolving men to go into the past and struggle against the causes of the present evil which lie there. This explains where those people disappear who have remembered their past lives.
    From the ordinary point of view this sounds like an absurdity. But the idea of reincarnation contains this absurdity, or this possibility.
    In order to admit the possibility of reincarnation into the past, it becomes necessary to presume plurality of existence, or again co-existence, that is to say, it becomes necessary to suppose that life of man, while repeating according to the law of eternal recurrence at one "place in time", if it can be put thus, simultaneously occurs at another "place in time". Moreover, it can be said with almost complete certainty that a man, even approaching the super-human state will not be conscious of that simultaneity of lives; and will remember one life or the life at one "place in time" as past and feel the other as present.
    In the conditions of three-dimensional space and one-dimensional time, plurality of existence is impossible. But under the conditions of six-dimensional space-time it is quite natural, because in it "every point of time touches every point of space" and "everything is everywhere and always". In the space-time represented by two intersecting triangles there is nothing strange or impossible in the plurality of existence. And even an approach to these conditions creates for a man the possibility to "go the way of all the earth", to "be gathered to his fathers", which enables him to influence his ancestors or their contemporaries, gradually to change and to make more favorable the conditions of his birth and gradually to surround himself with people who also "remember". (...skipped some sentences here...)

    ...The privilege of the position of reincarnating into the past for the man who remembers what he has learned in his past life is explained by the fact that he knows the results, knows what has sprung from the actions of the people of the time into which he reincarnates.
    This does not of course mean that everything or many things can be altered by one man being reincarnated into the past. The possibilities of altering external events are very small, but they must exist. If in every moment there were only one possibility we should live in a world of absolute predetermination, and nothing could be altered. But "moments" differ from one another very greatly in this respect. There are moments with only one possibility; there are moments with several possibilities; and there are moments with many and varied possibilities. ...(skipping some sentences here)...But in the case of reincarnation into the past this question is much simpler because only that man can reincarnate who has already attained great consciousness and power.
    By this means, that is, by means of the reincarnation into the past of people who have reached a certain degree of inner development, a reverse current is created in the midst of the stream of life, this reverse current is the evolutionary movement, the movement which gradually makes life better and nobler, and itself returns enriched to the source from which it originated."

    P.D.Ouspensky completed most of this in 1914, and revised it in the 1930's.
    -------------------------------------------------

    There is the contemporary saying of: "just go with the flow". While above we have the saying of: "a reverse current is created in the midst of the stream of life, this reverse current is the evolutionary movement".

  3. #3
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Omniscience In Varying Degrees

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Omniscience
    ... with Omniscience the Seer knows every possible action and every possible permutation that can happen for all actions, all beings, all the time with 100% certainty of the outcome of all ones actions. This is the omniscience I have thought of.
    Namaste BG (et.al)

    Thank you for your post... here is where I am thinking about this.
    We have a Being that is omniscient. WE also understand that this Being is omnipotent and omnipresent.

    I thought If I defined these characteristics then a conversation can take place regarding the following:
    • What qualities ( in part or in whole) can a humanBeing be able to develop or unfold?
    • This Being ,all knowing and all powerful, is the sum Σ of Brahma + Visnu + Rudra + Mother Divine +...; we can ask the question;
    • Why is there the impulse to create and for beings to come into existence? Many have said on this forum to live, work out or finish ones Karma. If this is the case , how can this be? In the very first creation , lets say this happens to be the 1008th creation of the total universe ( inside an infinite number that will be created). The very first creation , where was there karma of beings that was required to be be brought back if it were the first? We then can ask a few more questions.
    • And - since this Being knows with 100% certainty the outcome of every person , place and thing, and is the Creator of it, What is the purpose? I do not say this in a feudal voice. I mean to say if the Being knows the outcome, it must be for more then '...lets see how this goes this time' because He will know the outcome before even creating. See my point?
    • Last point - I can understand why there are the schools of monistic or adviati, dualistic or dvaita and mono+dualistic or Vishishtadvaita exist. When looking at this Great Being ( Brahman) how could one not have multiple views of this Greatness, of this Infinite Possible Being? Debating which one is right or more right, is a pass-time for humans!
    Any way, if this is of interest to some of the HDF members we can discuss. If not, there is no doubt I will continue to ponder this notion as it has the ability to stretch ones awareness... a upaya thinking of upeya.

    1. upāya उपाय - a method, technique, way of doing ; that by which one reaches one's aim , a means or expedient.
    2. upeya उपेय to be striven after or aimed at , that which is aimed at.


    ॐनमःिशवाय

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 31 December 2008 at 07:45 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    Namaste Yajvan

    Why? As far as some know Love is Why; or as some might say, "Spirit unto Spirit". There a song that never ends and is always new...all dance!



    Om

  5. #5

    Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    (and I still haven't figured out how to post a picture with any size to it?)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Omniscience In Varying Degrees

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste BG,

    (and I still haven't figured out how to post a picture with any size to it?)
    this may help... See ZN's post , How To Add Attachments post


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    Why? As far as some know Love is Why; or as some might say, "Spirit unto Spirit". There a song that never ends and is always new...all dance!Om
    Yes, I can see this, but for some reason it does not seem to me to be the whole reason. Is this reason not good enough ? Nope, makes sense, yet for some curious reason it does not completely 'scratch my itch'.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 December 2007 at 02:19 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #7

    Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    "...but for some reason it does not seem to me to be the whole reason..."

    That is good...because if anyone could ever reasonably put It into a box It would die.

    Om

  8. #8
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Sahasrarkadyutirmatha
    Posts
    1,802
    Rep Power
    187

    Arrow Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    Namaste Yajvan,

    The original karma was only kAma, and creation unfolds as a blissful reverie (a lIlA of shiva).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    69
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    219

    Re: Omniscience In Varying Degrees

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste,
    Let me see if I can take this notion of Omniscieince and bring it to the next level , and offer a conclusion without too many words. Yet words assist to paint the picture I will try to be sparing! Lets see what you think of it.

    Omniscience
    ...Omniscience is, the Seer knows every possible action and every possible permutation that can happen for all actions, all beings, all the time with 100% certainty of the outcome of all ones actions.

    And what of humans? This comment is offered in post 1 above.

    Omnipresence
    We know this Being's ( Lets call this Being Brahman and follow the name we see throughout the Upanishads) presence to be everywhere. Every where there is akasha we can find this Brahman. And every where there is not akasha ( the transcendent, turya, the 4th, perfect awareness, pure consciousness) we find Brahman. This is not by personal experience as yet, but we will rely on the shastras for the truth on this matter.

    This suggest that Brahman is all matter and non-matter. All things that are made from the mahabhutas ( the 5 elements), all that of made of spirit (the devata), all that made of or has Aham as their core being; all that is a function of consciousness e.g. intellect, ego, feelings, emotions.
    That is there is no-thing that Brahman is not i.e. sentient or insentient ( with awareness or without awareness) on any level, at any time , before or after creation occurs.

    And what of humans?
    Our Omnipresence is somewhat limited while in ignorance or abuddha. Yet as one develops, this experience of being Universal is experiencee, yet it is not at the level being discussed here. Lets say the yogi establishes this state of being. It took this creation for one to realize this Universal status . With Brahman there never was a time when He was without this level of Universality.

    The yogi rejoices in this discovery that "I am That", yet it happens in this creation in time, then s/he becomes timeless also.

    Omnipotent
    This Brahman is all powerful from the standpoint that everything originates in this Being. What ever the summation Σ of all power is, Brahman is. And he is the sum of all potential, that is power that has not risen. So he is both present energy and potential energy. That is Brahman can create , maintain and dissolve all of this creation i.e. Brahma + Visnu + Rudra.

    And what of humans?
    We can create maintain and destroy and we do this on a daily basis, yet at a fraction of the potential of Brahman.

    We are constantly creating , maintaining and dis-solving thoughts. We create at work, at home with projects and ideas. Yet we do not create the raw materials for our creative use.
    We know how to destroy, but what we are really doing is either breaking apart things, or converting material into another form of energy . Say we burn a log - we just converted the log to heat, and the log no longer exists in wood form, but is now in heat form that dissipates.

    It is said with the yogi or yogini that is fully developed can create from seemingly nothing ( yet they really are working with consciousness). This is considered a siddhi that can be exercised.

    And of destruction? Yes they can destroy too as needed or desired. Yet the one thing the yogi cannot do is dissolution; the complete annihilation of 'This' , all of creation, both seen and unseen back into the Absolute.

    The above is the fundamental ground work describing this Being in part. Is there more we can add to this description? Sure, but for now I believe will be sufficient to come an opinion on this matter.

    Conclusion offered
    If Brahman is the sum of Omnipresence + Omniscience + Omnipotence, how can we not be this Being ourselves? We are part of the system that is Brahman.

    If He is everything, in all places and all time, we are a 'thing' that exists in a place and a time, hence we are Brahman. We think and have forward thoughts ( pre-cognition of what we will do or say), we are the expression of this Being, we are this Being, just on a smaller scale.

    To say we are not is to suggest that a wave that is found in the ocean is not part of the ocean; yet the wave's composition and origin is the ocean water itself.

    It's to say that a leaf on a tree has come into existence without the nourishment of the sap that made the whole tree bloom and is the sap, just in a different form.

    This is why the notion of I am That , Thou are That , all This is That, is so profound and is the goal of this life.

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 31 December 2008 at 07:47 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10

    Re: Omnisence In Varying Degrees

    Yajvan: "the Seer knows every possible action and every possible permutation that can happen for all actions, all beings, all the time with 100% certainty of the outcome of all ones actions"

    My quick take is that "Brahman" is not concerned with this...per-se, although to me you are speaking of the realm of Lord Brahma where all actions, all Beings, all time, along with all outcomes do take place!

    Thus the Seer you speak of is really represented by Lord Brahma, if you will.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •