A form of Taoism

[Bob G]

From a form of Taoism

Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun -- The First Principal

"Although Yu-huang is the High God, there are other abstract deities above him. He rules; they simply exist and instruct. First and foremost is Yuan-shih T'ien-tsun - the First Principal. He has no beginning and no end. He existed "before the void and the silence, before primordial chaos." He is self-existing, changeless, limitless, invisible, contains all virtues, is present in all places and is the source of all truth.

[meez]

Thanks Bob G.

[Bob G]

Hello and you are very welcome Meez :-)
----------------------------------------

Some cosmology of Taoism:

"All cause and effect is due to the Dao, the Way. The Way can be explained as the reason or cause of everything which followed.

Before Dao there was: Wu-wu (Not Nothing).
With Dao there was: Wu Ji (No Limit).
From Wu Ji, evolved Hun Tun (Chaos).
In Hun Tun, Tai Ji (Great Pole) became the first fixed point in space and time.
From Tai Ji came the Tai Yi (Great Change)
Tai Yi went through two stages...

1. Tai Chu (Great First)
   • has Xing (Form)
2. Tai Shi (Great Beginning)
   • has Qi (Breath)

Xing and Qi combined to create...

• Tai Su (Great Primordial)
  • has Zhi (Substane)
  • The first substances has Yin and Yang. All things terrestrial and celestial fall into one of five groups, the Wu Xing (Five Elements). The five elements are...

1. Wood
2. Fire
3. Earth
4. Metal
5. Water

The five elements are usually in a state of flux. They can be arranged in a number of sequences, but the two usually encountered are the productive sequence and the destructive sequence.

• Productive sequence
  • Wood burns, creating...
  • Fire leaves ashes, creating...
  • Earth contains ore, creating...
  • Metal melts, creating...
  • Water nourishes plant life, creating (back to Wood)...
• Destructive sequence
  • Wood draws strength from, destroying...
  • Earth pollutes, destroying...
  • Water puts out, destroying...
  • Fire melts, destroying...
  • Metal chops down, destroying (back to Wood)...

The five elements are also used to symbolize different things...

• Wood
  • Direction: East
  • Season: Spring
  • Color: Green
• Fire
  • Direction: South
  • Season: Summer
  • Color: Red
• Earth
  • Direction: Center
  • Season: None
  • Color: Yellow
• Metal
  • Direction: West
  • Season: Autumn
  • Color: White
• Water
  • Direction: North
  • Season: Winter
  • Color: Black"

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Productive sequence

• • Wood burns, creating...
  • Fire leaves ashes, creating...
  • Earth contains ore, creating...
  • Metal melts, creating...
  • Water nourishes plant life, creating (back to Wood)...
• Destructive sequence
  
  • Wood draws strength from, destroying...
  • Earth pollutes, destroying...
  • Water puts out, destroying...
  • Fire melts, destroying...
  • Metal chops down, destroying (back to Wood)...

The five elements are also used to symbolize different things...

Namaste and hello BG,
with the principles of the 5 elements above... what element holds all, or provides a 'space' for them to exist in?

From a simular scheme of the 5 elements you depict above, in many schools of thought ( Jyotish, Samkhya, etc), akasha ( pure space) is recognized as the most subtle, followed by vayu, tejas some like to call agni, jala and prithvi ( space, air or gas, fire or energy, water or fluid, and earth or material). That is, akasha provides a space for things to exist.


just wondered what a Tao view of this would be...

pranams

[Bob G]

Namaste and hello also Yajvan,

I'm not a qualified Taoist teacher...but the term "emptiness" can be found in Taoism just as it can found in other ways. Anyway, I think most would agree that the main or most often recognized teacher of Taoism is Lao Tzu. Here is an excerpt (one of my favorite) from his work namely the -Tao Teh Ching - that may (?) be of help in relation to your question:

Chapter 42.
TAO gave birth to One,
One gave birth to Two,
Two gave birth to Three,
Three gave birth to all the myriad things.

All the myriad things carry the Yin on their backs and
hold the Yang in their embrace,
Deriving their vital harmony from the proper blending
of the two vital Breaths.
What is more loathed by men than to be "helpless,"
"little," and "worthless"?
And yet these are the very names the princes and barons
call themselves.
Truly, one may gain by losing;
And one may lose by gaining.
What another has taught let me repeat:
"A man of violence will come to a violent end."
Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.

Here is a link to an on line version of the book if you are interested:
http://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste and hello also Yajvan,

...but the term "emptiness" can be found in Taoism just as it can found in other ways.:

Chapter 42.
TAO gave birth to One,
One gave birth to Two,
Two gave birth to Three,

Namaste BG,
thank you ... the Chapt 42 outliness the events of creation... a fine thing.
Yet akasha as an element is not alluded to. No worries, it still exists.

For me, it is the most profound element. Think of the Creator, and how infinitely wise S/He is to not even think, but to know space is needed, and it is there, done. It is the one of the most subtlest elements we can percieve. We see and use space every day. Yet we never occupy the same space even for a second. Even if you sit still and do not move, you have moved through space and occupy new space, a different place in the universe.

I by My icchā śhakti ( indepent power of will, of intent) wish to be many ( creative diversity). But where shall I reside? Where shall I put mySELF into to? Then became akasha, space. Akasha ( ākāśa) is considered the body of Brahman. Why so? It is infinite, without bounds, no seems, no edges, no end.

Some say our SELF is this ākāśa, filled with consciousness.

pranams

[Bob G]

Hello Yajvan,

Direct correlation with, to, or between Hinduism and Taoism is not a major objective or concern to me. I see Taoism as standing on its own.

Btw, imo I feel that the first sentence in chapter 42 alludes to more than the mind of reason can really correlate, name or relate to via: "TAO gave birth to One,"

Thus with the use of reason if - One is already one - how can there be something beyond one that gave birth to what was already oneness...?

Further and in using a similar line of reasoning, how can something return to a state of Oneness unless it was in a state of two and then when attaining an awareness of a state of - oneness - where can that oneness then return to but itself?

I believe an alluding to like answer to my limited rhetorical foray above and your earlier question is further explained in chapter 43 if you are interested?

Good day.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Hello Yajvan,
Direct correlation with, to, or between Hinduism and Taoism is not a major objective or concern to me. I see Taoism as standing on its own.

Namaste BG,
Yes, this is fine. I respect your position. How I learn is via comparing and contrasting and that was the nature of my question.

Thus with the use of reason if - One is already one - how can there be something beyond one that gave birth to what was already oneness...?

yep, how can there be?

how can something return to a state of Oneness unless it was in a state of two and then when attaining an awareness of a state of - oneness - where can that oneness then return to but itself?

I think there is no return, because IT ( Brahman from my school of thinking) never stops being ONE.. but to us, we see diversity. This diversity is 'life' to us, and to HIM, it is the play and display of His Infinite Creative Intelligence doing what it does.

We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are ...The Talmud


pranams

[Bob G]

Hello Yajvan,

I agree with your apparent line of reasoning to a point... although I'd use the description that "Oneness" is an aspect, or the first and the last Aspect of that which can not really be named. Thus in my way of thinking "Brahman" is only a name for the nameless, where-as creation and or Creator can be given names such as Oneness.

Were you interested in the very short Chapter 43? (viewable through the on-line resource)

Good day.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Hello Yajvan,

I agree with your apparent line of reasoning to a point... although I'd use the description that "Oneness" is an aspect, or the first and the last Aspect of that which can not really be named. Thus in my way of thinking "Brahman" is only a name for the nameless, where-as creation and or Creator can be given names such as Oneness.

Were you interested in the very short Chapter 43? (viewable through the on-line resource) Good day.

Namaste and hello BG,

I think I have a few ideas for this post...

• If I recall, your orientation of Brahman is the unmanifest. While I concur, Brahman that is explained in the Upanishads is both unmanifest and manifest. That is why It is seen as wholeness. And this dividing line between the two is there due to our (my) ignorance. Once an individual is completely 'Realized' this line does not exist, only wholeness , no nirguna or saguna ( so say the wise e.g. my teacher).
• So when we get the aspect of Oneness as you mention above, there is only this Oneness- this Bhuma or Fullness this samasta or holistic view of all.
• For Buddhism this may be the Void ( again, I am comparing and contrasting so we find common ground to talk from). We have discussed this void ( sunya). So if I put on my Kasmir Saivism hat , we would recognize this void with the following definition - that which is devoid of all tattvas, that which is devoid of all traces of klesas (past impressions) that is sunya ( I have referenced the term abhava as non-existence in a past post).
  The only reason I bring this up is the pure experience of akasa from our last email - one can have that experience of void/sunya. Yet beyond that there too is the fullness of the Absolute. Some call this pure consciousness. It is homogeneous, fullness, perfect Being. And some too can suggest that the experience is that of Void.
• Yet a whole book is dedicated to suggesting that there is spanda, vibration or throbbing, the Creative Impulse that is there in this Absolute. This is found in the Spanda karikas.

So, the above was offered just as a point of reference - I am not in the 'converting' business and I respect your studies and where you are coming from. For me, I have to translate the POV's into my terms so I can add value and be able to comprehend the subject matter... go figure eh?

Now, Verse 43 , yes I have looked at it:
The softest of all things
overrides the hardest of all things.
Only Nothing can enter into no-space.
Hence I know the advantages of Non-Ado.

Few things under heaven are as instructive as
the lessons of Silence,
Or as beneficial as the fruits of Non-Ado.

Do you care to comment on this verse (sloka)? What are your thoughts?
I gravitate to the line 'Only Nothing can enter into no-space' - as sunya is there, akaska is there.

pranams