A form of Taoism

[Bob G]

Yajvan, in regards to this exchange you mention, "I am comparing and contrasting so we find common ground to talk from", I understand because I often do the same; for instance see the following comments and quotes.

I think the term "Mystery of mysteries" used in chapter one of the Tao Teh Ching is excellent!

In Hinduism I've come across what to me is also an excellent teaching regarding the concepts of manifest (if related to being) and unmanifest (if related to non-being) found in chapter one of the Isa Upanisad:

"...Into blind darkness they enter, people who worship non-becoming; and into still blinder darkness, people who delight in becoming.
It's far different from coming-into-being, they say, different also from not-coming into-being, we're told--so we have heard from wise men, who have explained it all to us.
The becoming and the destruction--a man who knows them both together; passes beyond death by destruction, and by becoming attains immortality"

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Yajvan and Bob,

The great kingdom of magadha was first established around the iron mines of rAjagRha in about 600 BC, and the famous Chaldean empire was founded around the same time (606 BC). vardhamAna jñAtraputra (mahAvIra, the jaina tIrthaÑkara) was born in 599 BC, and Lao-Tzu was born in 605 BC.

There was clearly a wide-ranging philosophical revolution, a cultural and spiritual renewal, which began around 600 BC. The paths of Jainism and Taoism are born from this same revival, and the teachings of Mahavira and Lao-Tzu are closely related ~ and both sages also passed away at about the same time (Mahavira in 527 BC, and Lao Tzu in 520 BC).

And arising from this brave new world, the next generation produced gautama siddhArtha (563 BC to 486 BC) and also Confucius (551 BC to 479 BC). I know little of Confucian thought, but I would guess that the contemporaneous philosophies of Buddha and Confucius are also intimately related.

“The Tao gave birth to the One”

And nara begat nArAyaNa, brahma begat brahmA, the turya begat sattva, and the brahmayoni begat the brahmabIja ~ and in every case it was a “virgin birth”, a veritable “child of a barren woman”.

There are two different “ones”, and the concept of one is indeed twain. There is the perfect turya “One”, all encompassing and always undivided, without any relation to multiplicity; and there is the “one” which exists only in relation to diversity and number ~ the “one and only” (nara) and the “first of many” (nArAyaNa).

In dvaita, the reflective twin is imagined as twain, and one plus one always equals two; but in advaita, the whole is clearly comprehended as only one, and the notion of one plus one never arises, remaining always as One.

Only when diversity is completely removed from the equation does the one become absolutely identical with the One, from which ultimate perspective it was always so.

oM namo nArAyaNAya is the mantra of vaishvAnara.

oM naM naranArAyaNAya svAhA is the mantra of taijasa.

And oM namaH shivAya is the mantra of prAjña.

[Bob G]

Namaste Sarabhanga Giri,

Thank you for sharing the interesting historical information and your correlations!

I'm also interested in the mythic (at least to some of us) accounts from Chinese/Taoism that are not unlike many found in Hinduism:

For instance:
Vanquishing evil, the Jade Emperor (from wikipedia)

Jade E.jpg

There is a little known myth which tells of how the Jade Emperor became the monarch of all the deities in heaven. It is one of the few myths in which the Jade Emperor really shows his might. In the beginning of time, the earth was a very difficult place to live; a much harsher place to live in than it is now. Men were having tremendous difficulty coping with existence; not only did men have to deal with harsh conditions, but also with all kinds of monstrous beings. At this time, there were also not many gods or deities to protect men. Furthermore, a lot of powerful, evil demons were defying the immortals of heaven. The Jade Emperor was still at the time an ordinary immortal who roamed earth to help as many people as he could. He was, however, saddened by the fact that his powers were limited and could only ease the sufferings of men. He decided to retreat in a mountain cave and cultivate his Dao. He passed 3,200 trials, each trial lasted for about 3 million years. Unfortunately, a powerful, evil entity; a demon of sorts, which dwelt on earth had the ambition to conquer the immortals and gods in heaven and proclaim sovereignty over the entire universe. It went into retreat later than the Jade Emperor. This evil entity retreated itself too and went into meditation to expand its power. He passed through 3,000 trials each trial lasting for about 3 million years too. After it passed its final trial, it felt confident that no one could defeat it anymore. It re-entered the world again, and recruited an army of demons with the purpose of attacking heaven. The immortals being aware of the threat gathered themselves and prepared for war. The gods were unable to stop the powerful demon and all were defeated by it. The Three Pure Ones were leading the celestial beings at the time. Fortunately, the Jade Emperor finished his cultivation in the midst of this war. He was changing the land to make it more liveable for men and repelling all kinds of monstrous beasts. Suddenly, he saw an evil glow emitting from heaven and knew something was amiss. He ascended and saw that a war was going on, he saw that the demon was too powerful to be stopped by any of the gods present. He went up and challenged the demon, and a battle ensued between them. Mountains shook and rivers and seas toppled; however, the Jade Emperor stood victorious due to his deeper and wiser cultivation, not for might but for benevolence. After totally annihilating the demon, all the other demons were scattered by the gods and immortals. Because of his noble and benevolent deeds, the gods, immortals and mankind proclaimed the Jade Emperor the supreme sovereign of all.

[Bob G]

...and here is historical information that may be somewhat more traceable:

By Derek Lin
Due to the language and cultural barrier between East and West, it can often be difficult to find reliable and accurate information about the Tao. Misconceptions abound, even from sources that one would normally consider definitive and authoritative. One such misconception, perhaps the most important of all, has to do with the origin of the Tao.

Many people interested in the Tao are still under the impression that Lao Tzu founded Taoism about 2,500 years ago. There is some truth to this, as long we are only talking about philosophical Taoism (Dao Jia) or religious Taoism (Dao Jiao). However, the one thing that most people do not realize is that both variants of Taoism came from a much older tradition, known to the Chinese simply as the Tao. It is not possible for Lao Tzu to be the founder of this ancient tradition for the simple reason that it began at least 2,300 years before his time.

Discerning individuals may glimpse this truth when they come across references to Huangdi, one of the legendary emperors of ancient China. Encyclopedia Britannica identifies him as "a patron saint of Taoism," while Columbia Encyclopedia says: "Along with the semi-mythical Lao Tzu, he was associated in the traditional Chinese folk culture with the founding of Taoism." This is interesting, because Huangdi lived about 4,700 years ago, 2,200 years before Lao Tzu. He could only be a patron saint of Taoism if Taoism already existed at that time. And if he was associated with the founding of it, then Lao Tzu could not logically play the same role. One cannot originate something that has already been around for generations. Thus, most reference works in the West that cite Lao Tzu as the source of Taoism are not completely accurate. We can give Lao Tzu credit for religious Taoism and philosophical Taoism, but not the original Taoism that gave rise to both.
We can see another clue in I Ching (Yi Jing), the Book of Changes. We commonly associate this book with Taoism, but it, too, predates Lao Tzu by more than two thousand years. To Lao Tzu and the Chinese people who lived during his time, the I Ching would be seen in a similar light as the Bible is regarded by Christians today - as an ancient tome of spiritual wisdom. Thus, calling Lao Tzu the founder of Taoism would be like calling a contemporary Christian the founder of Christianity.
It is important to note that Lao Tzu never claimed to be the founder of anything. This is clear in the Tao Te Ching itself, where Lao Tzu speaks of past practitioners. Chapter 15, for instance, is a description of "Tao masters of antiquity" or "those who mastered the Tao in ancient times." The chapter demonstrates Lao Tzu's awareness of the already existing Tao, and his wish to emulate the examples set by revered masters - people who were ancient to him and already historical figures by the time he wrote the Tao Te Ching.

Essentially, the Tao Te Ching was written as a collection of teachings from the original form of Taoism. Lao Tzu presented these teachings in an organized and accessible format. His work revitalized and energized Tao cultivation, so its importance cannot be overlooked. At the same time, it's also important for us to recognize that Lao Tzu was not the one who "invented" concepts like wu wei, p'u, and ziran. Nor was he the first to talk about the significance of silence, harmony, intuition and emptiness.

Who, then, is the true founder of the Tao, if not Lao Tzu? Is it Huangdi? No, as it turns out, there was another figure who came before Huangdi by about a century: Fu Hsi (pronounced foo shee). He is not, and perhaps never will be, identified in Western reference works as the originator of the Tao. However, when we go deeper into research, we can see that the I Ching and the trigrams (Ba Gua, the basis of the 64 hexagrams in I Ching) are attributed to him. Fu Hsi was the first of the legendary emperors of ancient China. His reign marked the starting point of Chinese civilization, and the Tao concept that originated at the same time also reflected the spirit of Chinese culture from this ancient beginning. We can see the evidence for this when we get closer to Chinese culture. In this painting to the right, Fu Hsi is shown wearing furs. Below him on the floor we see the Ba Gua trigrams as well as a turtle. Legend has it that Fu Hsi divined the underlying pattern of the cosmos from the strange markings on the back of a turtle.

[Bob G]

Hello Yajvan,

"Now, Verse 43 , yes I have looked at it:

The softest of all things
overrides the hardest of all things.
Only Nothing can enter into no-space.
Hence I know the advantages of Non-Ado.

Few things under heaven are as instructive as
the lessons of Silence,
Or as beneficial as the fruits of Non-Ado.


Do you care to comment on this verse (sloka)? What are your thoughts?
I gravitate to the line 'Only Nothing can enter into no-space' - as sunya is there, akaska is there"
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Yes and thanks for your replys; I will make some comments: #1. I think many people simply use the term "chapter" in regards to the verses of Tao Teh Ching; btw, I have no idea of the details of translation related to the Chinese word for chapter into english. #2. Chapter 43 (along with the whole book) is written in a wonderfully uncomplicated way which is very much to the point in my view. #3. I think you have a good correlation to the line, "Only Nothing can enter into no-space", to which I might add (imo) that It never really left except in a limited and temporary form of identification. A possible (?) and rhetorical like Hindu correlation might go something like this: What can pass Brahma's gate but Brahman? (which it never really left...)

Om

[sarabhanga]

Namaste Bob,

The teachings of Mahavira and Lao-Tzu are closely related.

Mahavira is honored as the founder of Jainism about 2,500 years ago, but this is only the foundation of the shvetAmbara jaina lineage (as distinct from the ancient digambara). Mahavira (just as Lao-Tzu) was in fact the last of a long line of jaina before him.

The very first jina, the first nAtha, the first tIrthaÑkara, was RSabhdeva (“the virile bull man”), whose image goes back to the original sarasvatisindhu civilization (at least 4,500 years ago).



As the first tIrthaÑkara, the AdinAtha RSabhdeva is the “patron saint” of Jainism, equivalent with the Huang-Di of Taoism.

Most reference books cite mahAvIra as the founder of Jainism, but Jains understand that he was NOT the first tIrthaÑkara, rather he was the last. And mahAvIra became the last digambara jina of the shvetAmbara lineage by putting on a white cloth, and thus founding the popular religion of Jainism, which had remained hidden away (and simultaneously in full view, i.e. naked to the eye) for countless centuries before its popular “foundation”.

digambara tradition, however, considers the follows of vardhamAna (mahAvIra) as a heretical, and they revere his guru (pArshvanAtha, the 23rd tIrthaÑkara), and the ultimate aim of digambara jaina is to approach (perhaps become) the true “24th element” (the caturviMshatyavatAra or caturviMshatitIrthaMkara), which is ultimately expected (as caturviMshatimAnam, the sum total of twenty-four golden pieces).

The practice of shvetAmbara jaina is more external bhakti, with a dvaita perspective; while the practice of digambara jaina is more internal yoga, with more of a vishiSTAdvaita perspective.

It seems clear that the “Jade Emperor” is only Lord Indra, and I am more than ever convinced that “Mahavira” and “Lao-Tzu” are equivalent conceptions, and likewise “RSabhdeva” and “Huang-Di”.

Is there any particular difference between Jainism and Taoism that is not merely a difference in translation? It seems that the only real distinction between the two philosophies is in the language used. And the original separation of Vedanta and Jaina and the Tao, and also the teaching of Christ, is fundamentally due to translation of the one dharma into different tongues.

The major Upanishads were composed in the first half of the first millennium BC, and it was during this time that the Brahmi, Phoenician, and Aramaic, scripts were developed. And by recording the oral traditions in an easily translatable script, they were effectively released for broad publication.

And I believe that a major factor in the philosophical revolution around 600 BC was actually the codification of the shruti (which had previously only been heard and remember by heart) in written form, which created for the first time what we now consider as “scripture” and spawned various “new” religions, which are in truth only different translations of exactly the same eternal truths. And in the absence of the original oral traditions, the various dispensations have continued to diverge under their own cultural influences, with their original identities masked by the general veil of non-comprehension between different languages and scripts.

The speciation of dharma has occurred along the lines of biological species, and originally identical paths have become different paths only when their previously regular intercourse becomes interrupted by some isolating cause (such as geography and language).

[Bob G]

Hello Sarabhanga Giri,

I do not have the same view that you apparently have about the different paths mentioned as not really being that different? I do agree that one can make and or see many correlations yet that the differences in paths are also part of the truths of those different paths. (and also the sects within)

What little I know or have heard about Jains includes their strict non-violence that extends all the way to not killing infectious type insects...(I think?) Where-as some Taoists are vegetarians and some are not, some are martial artists and some are not, some are deeply religious and some are not very religious per-se...etc..

Also, your apparently wide-open specualtion of, "It seems clear that the “Jade Emperor” is only Lord Indra" isn't something that I'd say or proclaim to people of either path.

Further, I believe that many of the differences (besides biological) begin in the heavenly realms and then extend all the way through and into all the other realms.

Om

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,

There is a well known myth which tells of how indra became mahendra sarvadevAnAm, the monarch of all the deities in heaven: vRtrahantA indra.

[sarabhanga]

The Classic of Purity

Lâo the Master said, The Great Tâo has no bodily form, but It produced and nourishes heaven and earth. The Great Tâo has no passions, but It causes the sun and moon to revolve as they do. The Great Tâo has no name, but It effects the growth and maintenance of all things. I do not know its name, but I make an effort, and call It the Tâo.

Now, the Tâo shows itself in two forms, the Pure and the Turbid, and has the two conditions of Motion and Rest. Heaven is pure and earth is turbid; heaven moves and earth is at rest. The masculine is pure and the feminine is turbid; the masculine moves and the feminine is still. The radical Purity descended, and the turbid issue flowed abroad; and thus all things were produced. The pure is the source of the turbid, and motion is the foundation of rest. If man could always be pure and still, heaven and earth would both revert to non-existence.

Now the spirit of man loves Purity, but his mind disturbs it. The mind of man loves stillness, but his desires draw it away. If he could always send his desires away, his mind would of itself become still. Let his mind be made clean, and his spirit will of itself become pure. As a matter of course the six desires will not arise, and the three poisons will be taken away and disappear.

The reason why men are not able to attain to this is because their minds have not been cleansed, and their desires have not been sent away. If one is able to send the desires away, when he then looks in at his mind, it is no longer his; when he looks out at his body, it is no longer his; and when he looks farther off at external things, they are things which he has nothing to do with. When he understands these three things, there will appear to him only vacancy. This contemplation of vacancy will awaken the idea of vacuity. Without such vacuity there is no vacancy. The idea of vacuous space having vanished, that of nothingness itself also disappears; and when the idea of nothingness has disappeared, there ensues serenely the condition of constant stillness.

In that condition of rest independently of place how can any desire arise? And when no desire any longer arises, there is the True stillness and rest. That True stillness becomes a constant quality, and responds to external things without error; yea, that True and Constant quality holds possession of the nature. In such constant response and constant stillness there is the constant Purity and Rest. He who has this absolute Purity enters gradually into the inspiration of the True Tâo. And having entered thereinto, he is styled Possessor of the Tâo. Although he is styled Possessor of the Tâo, in reality he does not think that he has become possessed of anything. It is as accomplishing the transformation of all living things, that he is styled Possessor of the Tâo. He who is able to understand this may transmit to others the Sacred Tâo.

Lâo the Master said, Scholars of the highest class do not strive for anything; those of the lowest class are fond of striving. Those who possess in the highest degree the attributes of the Tâo do not show them; those who possess them in a low degree hold them fast and display them. Those who so hold them fast and display them are not styled Possessors of the Tâo and Its attributes.

The reason why all men do not obtain the True Tâo is because their minds are perverted. Their minds being perverted, their spirits become perturbed. Their minds being perturbed, they are attracted towards external things. Being attracted towards external things, they begin to seek for them greedily. This greedy quest leads to perplexities and annoyances; and these again result in disordered thoughts, which cause anxiety and trouble to both body and mind. The parties then meet with foul disgraces, flow wildly on through the phases of life and death, are liable constantly to sink in the sea of bitterness, and for ever lose the True Tâo.

The True and Abiding Tâo! They who understand it naturally obtain it. And they who come to understand the Tâo abide in Purity and Stillness.

[sarabhanga]

The Ultra Supreme Emptiness Emperor, the Heavenly Lord, said:

The precept of being vegetarian is the fundamental of Tâo, and is a bridge of truth, across the ocean of births and death, between the ferry and the other shore of liberation.

If you wish to learn Tâo, you should be a vegetarian and keep the precepts, and your every single thought should be righteous and Real, then the evils and delusions will vanish of themselves.

Most living beings have abandoned the pure realm and are indulging in meat-eating, this defiles both their bodies and minds. They are like the hungry ghosts who eat dead bodies but cannot extinguish the fire that are burning their hungry intestines so that they can never eat their fill; they are also like the flies and worms who scramble for putrid and stinky things and stay still on them as if those are sandalwood.

In a meat eater’s body, the three palaces are turbid, and the six viscera are defiled, the dark souls of the dead bodies that he ate are exciting and thriving, and are always willing to guide him to the place of death.

Therefore, you should cut off the root of desires, enter into the pure and tranquil state, do not put any living being into suffering, do not commit anything evil, do not produce any delusions, and do not arouse any evil from your heart.

You should regard the precepts as the laws of the world, when you want to violate any of them, you should be aware of the punishment with fear. You should uphold the teachings of precepts sincerely and respectfully, keep the precepts solemnly as if they are in front of you, and as if you are facing something that you fear. You should keep your heart righteous and solemn, eliminate all thoughts, and listen attentively to the non-dual, then you will be able to experience the Correct Truth, and become my disciple.

A commendable person who studies Tâo cuts off his various loves and desires, rejects all meats and greasy foods, keeps being a vegetarian, and keeps his mind pure and pellucid, to research and experience the unsurpassed Tâo ~ this is called “seeking enjoyments in hardship”. If one can understand those enjoyments, he will not even notice the hardship.

Most living beings love richness and high positions, they are deluded by sounds and phenomena so that they give loose to their passions and desires. They seem to be enjoying, but in fact they are producing sufferings.

As for my Tâo, the joy comes after the hardship;
As for most living beings, the sufferings come after the enjoyments.

I now have told you this, you should realize it and be cautious.