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Thread: A good Vaishnava

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja
    Just imagine an athiest who is very humble. Whats the point? It's good, but what exactly is the point?
    So you are saying that athiests can have these qualities but there is no point in them having them for them. so by your logic, we have to first believe in god and specifically to Krishna (not vishnu or shiva or any other entity) then and only then someone can become 'humble'?

    Are you sure about this? Because I am going to nail you in the next posts...so be sure of what you answer.
    satay

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    hahaha this sounds more like the following:
    man:how do i know bible is the truth
    christian: because god revealed it to us
    man: can you prove it?
    christian: sure, read the bible. first you have to believe in god and the holy spirit then you have study the bible under someone knowledgeable's direction. (knowledgeable here means fundy) then holy spirit will work and you have to allow this spirit to come inside your heart. once all this is done then you will know that bible is the truth because it says so...



    come on, pankaj, you would have to do better than this.
    Eh? Sastra is from God, it's not man made. Well what you said probably wouldn't convince an athiest. But for us it should do. If not why not!

    I never been an athiest, but I sometimes wonder if even God believers actually believe in God or are just making a show (or have some other motive).

    If I tell you you can goto eternal heaven by doing some stuff, would you not accept it? Sure in the start. But later you would need some proof.

    Not to be 'like that'. But Bhakti-yoga (devotional service to Krishna) is direct path.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by satay
    So you are saying that athiests can have these qualities but there is no point in them having them for them. so by your logic, we have to first believe in god and specifically to Krishna (not vishnu or shiva or any other entity) then and only then someone can become 'humble'?

    Are you sure about this? Because I am going to nail you in the next posts...so be sure of what you answer.
    Vishnu and Krishna are same (vishnu-tattva). So well what you going to say eh? Come on I am waiting..

    Shiva is devotee of Krishna, so we don't think that His seperate. Krishna is Original Personality of Godhead (it says this in Bhagavatam). And Bhagavad-gita (Krishna proves by showing Vishnu-form). Can't really argue can you?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakta of God
    Shri Valmiki became a great wise by chanting continually Mara Mara Mara...which is the contrary of Rama.
    You did not provide proof as requested. Pankaja claimed that you ONLY get such qualities IF you chant. I need to see evidence of such a ridiculous claim. ~BYS~

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja
    Difficult to prove. Because even if a person like this exsists. It's hard for anybody to actually see the qualities. Because we tend to see faults more often. I think you need to be little impartial. And pray to Krishna.

    Many times people claim to be incarnations of God, etc. But cannot exactly prove it. Or refuce to prove it. So the only proof we have is these qualities and also Sastra. Sastra says about incarnations and such, and also who a REAL Sadhu is. He accepts the Paramapara System (it could be 4 vaishnava or Shankcaharaya). Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita we MUST appraoch a Guru and learn from Him. This doesn't mean any old Guru lying on the street. It means somebody in the disicplic succussion (Krishna CAME to re-establish this system). It's really obvious. But it takes somebody to actually tell you these simple truths. You can judge who is false and who is true simply by asking them who they follow? If they have no Guru then it usually means they did have, but now have become an incarnation (therefore rejected their Guru). (in other words become a false, advertised incarnation, usually of oh lets say Krishna).

    Sastra says Krishna comes once in a day of Brahma. Eh. There is no incarnation of Krishna. And even if there was it has to be verified (and the person has to belong to Parampara System). KRISHNA SAYS THIS. So first of all. These need to be established. Then later we can see whos chanting what. Hope that helps
    You didn't prove anything. If you cannot prove a claim, it is best not to make one. You said that you can ONLY attain such qualities IF you chant. I would like to see where in the shastras it says you can ONLY get those qualities IF you chant. I would also like to see where in the Bhagavad Gita it says that you can only have a guru that is in disciplic succession of one of the select schools that ISKCON states. I would like to see evidence from the scriptures and not mere writings from Prabhupada. Again, more ISKCON hand-waving as usual. Most Vaishnavas are not part of ISKCON and it is ridiculous to see ISKCON thinking it owns all of Vaishnavism. Your statements are not Vaishnava beliefs, but simply ISKCON beliefs. I suggest you prove your claims or I rest my case. ~BYS~

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja
    Eh? Sastra is from God, it's not man made. Well what you said probably wouldn't convince an athiest. But for us it should do. If not why not!

    I never been an athiest, but I sometimes wonder if even God believers actually believe in God or are just making a show (or have some other motive).

    If I tell you you can goto eternal heaven by doing some stuff, would you not accept it? Sure in the start. But later you would need some proof.

    Not to be 'like that'. But Bhakti-yoga (devotional service to Krishna) is direct path.
    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate but the example I gave you was to show how ridiculous your post was to BYS instead of proving your claim that you only get those qualities by chanting.

    usual hand waving by iskconites...
    satay

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja
    Vishnu and Krishna are same (vishnu-tattva). So well what you going to say eh? Come on I am waiting..
    don't know what you are waiting for. It is common knowledge that Vishnu and Krishna are the same since krishna is an avatar of Vishnu (not the other way around as iskconites tell their devotees).

    The rest of your post has no meaning and just trying to change the flow of the thread. You said in one of your posts that an atheist can not have those qualities...then you said...what good is it if he has them...when I asked you to confirm what you said...instead of confirming and standing by what you said earlier that athiests can not have these qualities without first knowing god and specifically in the form of krishna...you posted this something about vishu/krishna tattva...

    man, you are guys are just parrots of prabhupada...do you even read other people's posts or just try to copy shri prabhupada and dump all nonsense in his name?

    Prabhu, please...swami prabhupada was against all imitation please do not become like a parrot and vomit his teachings, first try to understand what he is saying!!

    Now, back to your original claim: Athiests can not have these qualities and if they do what good are they to them. is that what you said? meaning that atheists can not be humble etc.? is that what you mean?

    please don't try to hand wave and for once try to stand your ground.
    satay

  8. #28
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    Smile

    Namaste,

    If the purpose of Creation is God's Lila, then I am sure that God would prefer us to play nicely. In a mutually supportive environment, every individual can be raised up to their best, and in such a world there would be more souls drawn more surely to the ultimate Truth.

    All of the listed qualities are of benefit to every individual in any human society!

  9. #29
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    Pushpadanta told that persons following the various paths of: Trayi (Rik, Yajus, and Sama), Samkhya (of Kapila), Yoga (of Patanjali), Pashupata (i.e. Shaiva), and Vaishnava, ~ be they straight or crooked paths ~ as they each accordingly follow the path that is appropriate for their particular temperament, they ALL attain the same goal in the end.
    As a follower of both Shaivism and Yoga, not to mention Vedanta, much of my own understanding has also been distinguished from Trayi! So what?

    My faith is unaffected, and no Shaiva, no Yogin, nor any Advaita Vedantin, has objected to this line from Pushpadanta's own mouth!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakti Yoga Seeker
    You didn't prove anything. If you cannot prove a claim, it is best not to make one. You said that you can ONLY attain such qualities IF you chant. I would like to see where in the shastras it says you can ONLY get those qualities IF you chant. I would also like to see where in the Bhagavad Gita it says that you can only have a guru that is in disciplic succession of one of the select schools that ISKCON states. I would like to see evidence from the scriptures and not mere writings from Prabhupada. Again, more ISKCON hand-waving as usual. Most Vaishnavas are not part of ISKCON and it is ridiculous to see ISKCON thinking it owns all of Vaishnavism. Your statements are not Vaishnava beliefs, but simply ISKCON beliefs. I suggest you prove your claims or I rest my case. ~BYS~
    This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost. Bg.4.2

    That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend; therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science. Bg.4.3

    It says in Bhagavad-gita, Prabhupada didn't make anything up. He learnt everything from His own Gurudeva, and His Gurudeva learnt everything from His own Gurudeva. Krishna says above that it was lost. And He (Krishna) came to re-establish it again. So this is not an Iskcon belifef system. Krishna is saying this. Actually every Sampradaya accepts this.
    Last edited by Pankaja; 09 May 2006 at 03:46 AM.

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