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Thread: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

  1. #31

    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Personally, with no experience about this subject, my opinion is that when one truly desires something, he becomes pure in the respect of that objective desire....which is why a lot of sant tell us not to meditate w/ an aim...b/c then, you only achieve the aim...whereas, you are capable of achieving something much larger...therefore, the ones who engage in the process of attaining siddhis have a close mind which is directed solely to the siddhi, and their obsession results in the peace of the mind to get their result.

    Ex. How Arjun was able to go in Samadhi on his Vanvas, however, he complained to Sri Krishna how he couldn't focus at all, when there was no aim to motivate him....

    Having said that....spirituality is not a continually ascending ladder, there are people who go in samadhi, attain peace, and finally power, then come back from that state where they continue living a tamsic life. However, to use that power, they must still go to that pure state again, however, since they reach that stage everytime w/ a plan, they might gain some insight, but their capability of open mindedness cannot be compared to someone else, who reached that state w/ the aim of purity, instead of power...., meaning, not the just the state of mind, but intention has to be saatvik.

    This is the reason why buddhist don't agree w/ hinduist...both are awakened, but they don't reach the truth, subconsciously, they still believe their path is righteous. But then again, the term Buddha: awakened one, is a vague term, people interpret a lot of things out of it...I for one, do not thing, an awakened one is perfect, he just relatively has more control over himself.....as I read in Dalai Lama's book, he still claims to get nervous when he has to give a speech.

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    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Originally Posted by Bob G
    I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.

    I replied
    I will be happy to review the list you may wish to provide.
    Namaste BG (et.al)
    Let me address my own question if I may have this freedom to do so... I look to the author, Patanjali for his guidance:

    Vibhuthi Pada, sutra 37 (or Chapt 3 verse/sutra 37 of the Yoga Sutras)

    te samadhav upasarga vyutthane siddhayah
    te -these samadhav-while in samadhi upasarga-impediment, obstacle, distraction. vyutthane-emergent siddhayah- proficiencies, perfections or abilities.
    That is, These abilities or siddhis are impediments to samadhi but are acquisitions in a fluctuating state of mind¹

    That said, saMyama is a very useful application, upaya, method etc. but not in order to gain siddhis by themselves. Rather saMyama is utilized in order to overcome impediments to samadhi. This is the wisdom offered².

    1. These additional views are offered by Swami Hariharanada Aranya of the Kapila ashram, with additional comments of support (not offered here) by P.N.Mukerji, one of the sisya's of the ashram

    2. I have shared with you additional insights, instruction and guidance offered and explained to me on this matter by my competent teacher. This knowledge is typically hidden from view from the general public. For this I am thankful to the wise that are able to separate avidya from wisdom on this subject. I am not the author here, but the exponent of their teaching. For this I am blessed.

    3. FYI only संयम or saMyama (some write saṅyama) holding together , restraint , control , (esp.) control of the senses , self-control; Yet these terms suggest effort,; Excess effort does not support this notion of over-extending or trying, as it suppresses that natural flow of consciousness.

    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Namaste all: Going right back to the original topic of how to stop judging, one of the sadhanas I practise (try to would be more accurate) on a daily basis is to see Siva in all. The eyes of a person are the windows to the soul. (Not my words, just can't remember who said it). So when you look at another person, you see Siva. Now how do we 'judge' Siva? Well, we don't. We admire, cherish the presence, feel, worship, etc. So when someone does something we under "normal" circumstances would judge in dualistic "good/bad" terms, if we're seeing Siva, then we tend to not judge at all.

    The other understanding I have is of where souls are on the path. There are old souls, and young souls. The university professor doesn't judge the kid in the kindergarten class. He/she just sees the kindergarten kid as where he is: a six year old learning about the world. Hate to break the news, but we're not born equal. Some of us have been here for many lifetimes, (This is my first.) and others are just beginning. So when someone is argumentative, acting immorally, etc, rather than judge, I just try to see that they are under more anava than I, being a younger soul, and its all quite a natural progression. Same principle applies to karma. Karma is reduced when the person really doesn't know better. But if you know about the virtue teaching found in all religions, like honesty and the like, and still choose to act against those laws, then the karma would be much more severe. Aum Namasivaya

  4. #34

    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Hello Yajvan,


    Ok, And I think there is a more straight-foward example below is in Vibhuthi Pada, sutras 51 and 52 (Translated by Chester Messenger)

    - Dangers of the supernatural powers -

    51] By maintaining non-attachment to even these supernatural powers, only then can the Yogi achieve absorption into the Supreme Soul. Otherwise these supernatural powers will become seeds of bondage and destruction.

    52] When approached by high ranking deities of temptation, do not allow their wonderous invitations to bring you back into attachment, for undesirable events are still possible.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've read of related type warnings given in 51 by several other well recognized Gurus; although I don't have quoted text from any of them right now. Also I know that taking a big fall is a hell of a lesson! (in this world and others)

    Om

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    Exclamation Re: Ajna - The third eye Chakra

    Namaste Yajvan,

    saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.
    There is a lot implied here.
    The foundation of all yoga is yama; and, once established in the firm basis of yama, niyama provides the matrix for ascending. In fact, all subsequent stages actually occur entirely within the context of niyama.

    niyama relies on the unwavering restraint of yama, and any spiritual ascent relies on the perfect control of niyama. And the whole of yamaniyama can never be ignored in the process of yoga.

    There are, of course, three levels of yama ~ yamAniyAma, AsanayAma, and prANAyAma ~ and all three must be applied simultaneously to raise the spirit from dvaitam to the advaita hRdayam. And pratyAhAra occurs in the taijasa of anAhata cakra, where the purity of the light is maintained by the continuous application of yAma.

    And saMyama absolutely requires all of the above!

    If any desire arises, then duality is certainly implied, and the spirit has surely descended below the heart cakra ~ with yAma perhaps intact, but with pratyAhAra (and thus all of saMyama) lost.

    If one wishes to eat, or desires to read a book, or even has any awareness of the external environment, then saMyama is certainly not being practiced correctly!

    The three-fold yAma may be practiced with occasional desires and diverse thoughts arising as you mention, but the three-fold saMyama is impossible! And if one is still walking around and having the initial desire to sit down and meditate, then the ten-fold yamAniyAma may certainly be intact, but Asana and prANAyAma, which transfix both the physical frame and the vital breath, have certainly not been applied, and the frame and the mind and the breath are all wandering in dvaitam!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yajvan

    So the good news is, by ones practice to have siddhis blossom, purity is gained and the Ulterior motives become washed away... that is the best kept secret of this approach.
    So , if ulterior motives are the motivating desire that gets an individual to practice of Dharana & Dhyana, then so be it. By this method one becomes closer to the SELF, and ulterior motives soon become dissolved.
    And the more equivocal news has already been given (but apparently ignored).

    Be careful what you ask for you may get it!

    The notion of one gaining power is ego driven. For if we are true and humble the great Power will have us, not the other way around of us having It.

    What you speak of can be a very fine line and one may cross that line and go in the opposite direction.

    Most of that interesting mind-stuff if attained can be like possible fringe benefits (so to speak) of deeper realization; but it can also sideline one into all sorts of trouble.

    All True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers. Thus if such a thing has never happened why do you think there are always warnings from them about such happenings?
    Much of the general public is nowhere near the point of readiness to understand these concepts.
    saMyama cannot be achieved as long as desire is present. Only a mind free from desires will be able to achieve saMyama.

    Those who wish to possess siddhis (other than the siddhi of brahma-jnAna) will never be able to achieve saMyama, because perfect saMyama is achieved only where there is peace of mind, with mind undisturbed by unwanted thoughts. Desire for siddhis influence the mind in the form of 'building castles in the air' and 'day dreaming' which prevent one from attaining the levels of concentration needed to achieve saMyama.

    So whoever attains siddhis attains them from never wishing to attain them. Some people fall a prey to siddhis after attaining them - and miss out on the real siddhi.

    Siddhis can give great benefits to you and others. You can cure the illness of others - but do you know such an act would bring the karma onto yourself for unnecessarily tampering with the laws of God? You can do a lot of good for the world, and in the process acquire a lot of karma too. If siddhis are misused, it is even bigger disaster. Only the perfect jnAni will be able to properly use the siddhis - and he may have no need of them. Half baked siddhas who use siddhis may pay a heavy price in the long run.
    Your comments about gaining physical strength and collecting diverse knowledge all pertain to levels below the heart cakra, which are all relatively dualistic conditions. But saMyama occurs beyond the hRdaya, in the head cakras.

    All desires create unnecessary attachments.

    saMyama is the perfect self-control of the AtmayAjin who is kAmAvasAyitAra.

    saMyama = turya
    samAdhi = prAjña
    dhyAnam = taijasa
    dhAraNa = vaishvAnara

    siddhi is synonymous with saMnyAsa and avadhUta.

    siddhi is “supreme felicity, bliss, beatitude, complete sanctification, final emancipation, or perfection”.

    And siddhi implies the vanishing of mAyA, the disappearance of any personal self, going away from normal perception, and making one’s self invisible.

    The five-fold attainment of aNiman, laghiman, prApti, prAkAmyam, and mahiman, together confers Ishitvam and vashitvam, all of which presupposes kAmAvasAya (the suppression of all passion and desire).

    In advaitavAda, siddhi presupposes kAmAvasAya and saMnyAsa, and the siddhi can never be explicit or independently exerted in the realm of dvaitam. If personal siddhi is desired, it will not be achieved; and if siddhi is displayed, then moksha will be lost.

    In dvaitavAda, however, kAmAvasAya is assumed as siddhi itself, with desires being suppressed by their own satisfaction. The siddhi, of course, can only be used for good purpose, with ahiMsA being always presumed. And immortal existence may be gained, but this is an endless existence as a fixed presence amid the flux of continuous dvaitam throughout the manvantaram, but destroyed along with the three worlds at the end, and reborn again in the next manvantaram to try again.

    advaitavAda presumes saMnyAsa and aims for prajñA and moksha; while dvaitavAda is vAnaprastha and kshatriya dharma, aiming for AjñA (command and control) and prajana (begetting and growth) and amRta (salvation and non-death) and transcendence to bhuvarloka (into the air), but not the final step of moksha (liberation) and ajana (dissolution and non-birth).

    Anyone “wishing for siddhi” should be aware of what they might actually get with such a desire, and also of what they will lose in this deal with the devil of dvaitam.

    The siddha king in dvaitam expects a return, and will be reborn and thus die again; while the siddha priest in advaitam expects nothing, and is exempt from rebirth and thus saved from all potential suffering and subsequent deaths.

    I fully support the cautionary comments from BG and RL ~ there is a very fine line in practice, with quite opposing potential results when that line is crossed.

    The dvaita tantram is an endless loom, with great responsibility for any man who would take its charge; while the advaita tantram casts off all threads of attachment and finally rests unbound and in peace.

    samAdhi is the blossoming of saMyama, but its seed germinates only in pratyAhAra, which itself depends on maintaining the perfect substratum of yAma.

    I have serious reservations about your interpretation of patañjali’s yoga.

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    Re: Ajna - The third eye Chakra

    Quote Originally Posted by sarabhanga View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,



    I have serious reservations about your interpretation of patañjali’s yoga.
    Namaste sarabhanga,
    then we differ and I have no resolution to convience, convert or debate your views... I have stated my position and will leave it there for now. thank you for taking the time to collect your thoughts and post a most exhaustive post.

    ( lots of bold type on this last post )


    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 10 January 2008 at 06:56 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob G View Post
    Ok, And I think there is a more straight-forward example below is in Vibhuthi Pada, sutras 51 and 52 (Translated by Chester Messenger)

    - Dangers of the supernatural powers -

    51] By maintaining non-attachment to even these supernatural powers, only then can the Yogi achieve absorption into the Supreme Soul. Otherwise these supernatural powers will become seeds of bondage and destruction.

    52] When approached by high ranking deities of temptation, do not allow their wondrous invitations to bring you back into attachment, for undesirable events are still possible.
    Namaste BG, thank you for the reference... appreciate the effort expended on this. As I have asked Rajalakshmi , and I mention this in the most positive way, i.e. not a challenge... are you a practitioner of saMyama? have you read and studied the Yoga Darsna? I mention this , as knowledge and experience is the greatest teacher here.

    Please advise and perhaps then we can compare notes... I plan to stick to my teaching & practice as it has served me well. And so far I have not become 'possessed' of the negative influences many have alluded to regarding siddhis and will continue my practice accordingly as this has been a long time effort.

    thank you again for your posts and the positive discussions on this matter.

    Last point so I can get a frame of reference ... you mention
    I know that all True Gurus warn of potential misuse of powers.
    does Chester Messenger meet this qualification? If so I then can do some research on him.
    please advise.


    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 10 January 2008 at 07:04 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Post Re: Ajna - The third eye Chakra

    Yajvan,

    You may have read P.N. Mukherji's translation of Swami Hariharananda Aranya's commentary on Patanjali's Yoga

    “Yoga Philosophy of Patanjali: Containing His Yoga Aphorisms with Vyasa’s Commentary in Sanskrit and a Translation with Annotations Including Many Suggestions for the Practice of Yoga”, written by Swami Hariharananda Aranya and translated by P.N. Mukherji.
    I have not read this book, but I very much doubt that Swami Hariharananda would have disagreed with my comments, so could you please quote something from Swami Hariharananda that actually disagrees with anything that I have said.

    And if I have understood your comments correctly, your dvaita “saMyama” may bring bliss for a while, but the fall is inevitable.

    I am sorry if this disagrees with your guru's advice, but I am quite sure that it does not disagree with Patanjali. I fear that you may be quite literally painting a picture of Dorian Gray, but if that is your strong desire ...

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    Re: Ajna- The third eye Chakra(how to stop judging)

    Namaste,

    It seems to me that with each higher octave of resonance (as in chakras), that the balance become more delicate.

    Balancing on Ajna requires, for me, harmonizing all lower chakras as a counterpoint to the music of the beacon of light, a balast of weightlessness which can be applied so as to make effortless the emergence into the brightening of the unobscured, um, Sun

    For me it has a whole lot more to do with surrendering or floating, than judging.

    /just saying...IMO

    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Arrow Re: Ajna - The third eye Chakra

    Regarding the desire for siddhi and the use of siddhi (and since my own words seem to be disregarded), remember that Patanjali himself remarks:

    These are obstacles to Samadhi; but they are powers in the worldly state.
    By giving up even these powers comes the destruction of the very seed of evil, which leads to Kaivalya.

    And here is an excellent article from “The Mountain Path”.

    It is becoming increasingly fashionable today for seekers to dabble with the occult in the pursuit of esoteric powers and experience. However the ancient spiritual traditions discourage this – why should the seekers of truth preoccupy themselves with powers over the material plane? These practices are distractions from the real goal of transcendent truth and they can become a source of ego (which the seeker is desires to transcend). Remember Goethe's Faust who became enslaved by these powers and Shakespeare's Macbeth whose downfall was precipitated by the three witches; both characters lost the battle with their lower self.

    The deliberate pursuit of psychic powers is not favoured by sages and advanced sincere seekers. They discourage such practices deeming them an obstacle to realising oneness of being. Powers are in the realm of phenomena which are obscuring factors in self-realisation; on the whole dangerous ground to tread for those still on the way to stop the discursive activities of the mind in order to attain a one-pointed flow of awareness. In the course of spiritual practice powers may manifest spontaneously as a result of practice of concentration in previous lives. Great is the allurement of psychic powers such as knowledge of future events, understanding the language of birds or animals, spirit mediumship, clairvoyance, astsal travel, telekinesis, reading of tarot, making oneself invisible or tiny as an atom (anima), and its opposite (mahima) and many more! And great is the discernment of those who have the strength to withstand them. No doubt the acquisition and perseverance resulting in concentration which could be used on the royal road instead of by-lanes.

    Acquired powers are to some extent due to a cultivation of generally available techniques and to some extent to development of an aptitude for spontaneous power that was inherent but not powerful enough to manifest without training. It is enough to say that they are not approved of by true masters. In order to seek them, a man's mind must be directed towards them, not towards spiritual liberation. Therefore they cannot lead him to Liberation. Preoccupation with them is far more likely to distract him from it; and it can do this just as effectively as preoccupation with physical wealth and power. At best they exist within the phenomenal world which we should be striving to transcend; at worst they degenerate into sorcery and magnify his ego by giving him power over other s and winning their submission and adulation.

    Midway between these two subcategories are powers which come to a man spontaneously in the course of his quest and as a by product of it. They also can be a hindrance on the quest. Whether and how far to use them will be a matter for decision by the Guru or for sober, dispassionate judgment if there is no physical Guru.

    The third category into which the second may merge, is of those who have made them selves channels for the Divine power by complete submission or dissolution of the ego which obstructs it.

    Ramakrishna has stated that a man cannot realise God if he possesses even one of the eight occult powers. He quoted Lord Krishna teaching Arjuna ~ "Friend, if you want to realise Me, you will not succeed if you have even one of the eight occult powers. This is the truth. Occult power is sure to beget pride and pride makes one forget God."

    He continued, "An egoistic person cannot realise God. Do you know what egotism is like? It is like a high mound where rain-water cannot collect; the water runs off. Water collects in low land. There seeds sprout and grow into trees. Then the trees bear fruit.

    'The deliberate pursuit of psychic powers is not favoured by sages and advanced sincere seekers. They discourage such practices deeming them an obstacle to realising oneness of being'

    "People of small intellect seek occult powers. Power to cure disease, win a law suit, walk on water and such things. But the genuine devotees do not want anything except His lotus feet. . . . People with a little occult power gain such things as name and fame. Many of them want to follow the profession of Guru, gain people's recognition, and make disciples and devotees.

    "People cure diseases through occult powers. All this is miracle working. Only those whose spiritual experience is extremely shallow call on God for the healing of diseases.

    It is very hard for those who want occult power to have pure love for God."

    Professor G.V.Subbaramayya in the article 'Automatic Divine Activity' has recounted how he prayed to the sage Sri Ramana Maharshi for the cure of his two-year-old daughter and how she was cured by his Grace, later he met Sri Ramana Maharshi and enquired of him, " did you not think that you must do something to save the child?" Straight came his reply : "Even the thought of saving the child is a sankalpa (wish), and one who has any sankalpa is no jnani (realised soul, literally, "knower"). In fact any such thought is unnecessary. The moment the jnanis attention is drawn in a certain direction there starts the automatic divine activity which itself leads to the highest good." The conversation was all in Telugu except for the phrase 'automatic divine activity' which Maharshi uttered in English.

    He later explained :

    "In Halasya Mahima there is a chapter on the eightfold siddhis. There Lord Siva says that his bhakta never wastes a thought on them. Again, Lord Siva says that He never grants boons. The desires of devotees are fulfilled according to their prarabdha only. When Ishwara Himself says so, what of others? In order to display siddhis there must be others to recognise them. That means there is no jnana (enlightened awareness) in the one who displays them. Therefore siddhis (occult powers) are not worthy of any thought. Jnana (self realisation) alone is to be aimed at and gained.

    "Atman (the Self) alone is to be realised. Its realisation holds all else in its compass. Sakti, Ganapati, Siddhis etc., are included in it. Those who speak of these have not realised the Atman."

    A North Indian visitor asked whether the Jnani (gnostic, knower) automatically acquired siddhis or whether he had to strive for them separately if he desired them.

    The reply:

    "Who is the jnani? If he is the body you see, then his siddhis will be shown to other bodies. But if he is pure awareness, from where will he get the siddhis and to whom will he show them?

    "Both the jnani and the bhakta (devotee) do not desire or work for siddhis; the former because he sees himself the All, and the latter because he sees his Ishta Devata as the All; even his own action is done by this deity; he has no will of his own at all to impel action on his own initiative. Yet siddhis follow them both like their shadows. What greater siddhi is there than that of the Sage., who by merely sitting on his couch, attracts thousands of people from the four corners of the earth, hundreds of whom change their old modes of life and some even attain Godhood?

    "People see many things which are far more miraculous than the so-called siddhis, yet do not wonder at them, simply because they occur every day."

    "The highest siddhi is realisation of the Self, Atma Sakshatkara; for here, once you realise the truth you cease to be drawn to the path of ignorance."

    The Sai Baba of Panimalai claims that he must perform the "miracles" he is famous for in order to inspire faith. He is often annoyed with those who question the nature of his powers.

    We are unable to share the view that the performance of miracles is not to be questioned or that the display of miracles or occult powers is meant to create and does create faith in the faithless. According to our humble opinion, the faith if created, would not be long-lasting and could not be the sraddha spoken of in the Gita:

    "Who has faith, who has conquered and controlled the mind and senses, who has fixed his whole conscious being on the Supreme Reality, he attains knowledge; and having attained knowledge he attains swiftly Supreme Peace."

    Also the performance of miracles alone is no proof of divinity: Did not Satan materialise the kingdoms of the earth at the feet of Christ, and offer them as temptation?

    The darshan (divine presence) of a jnani (self-realised being) has much more power to remove ignorance than the possessor of occult powers. This has been the experience of many seekers.

    Coming to Yoga Sastras, Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms (Ch. III,No.38,51) read

    "These are obstacles to samadhi; but they are powers in the worldly state."

    "By giving up even these powers comes the destruction of the very seed of evil which leads to Kaivalya."

    Commenting on these aphorisms, Vivekananda has observed

    "When the Yogi has seen all these wonderful powers, and rejected them, he reaches the goal. What are all these powers? Simply manifestations. They are no better than dreams. Even omnipotence is a dream. It depends upon the mind. So long as there is a mind it can be understood, but the goal is beyond even the mind."

    "Moreover what are these powers for? The would-be occultist (Siddha) desires to display the siddhis so that others may appreciate him. He seeks appreciation, and if it is not forthcoming, he will not be happy. There must be others to appreciate him. He may even find another possessor of higher powers. That will cause jealousy and breed unhappiness. The high occultist (siddha) may still meet a higher siddha and so on until there will come one who will blow up everything in a trice. Such is the highest adept (Siddha), and He is god or the Self.

    "The darshan (divine presence) of a jnani (self-realised being) has much more power to remove ignorance than the possessor of occult powers. This has been the experience of many seekers."

    "Which is the real power? Is it to increase prosperity or bring about peace? That which results in peace is the highest perfection (Siddhi)."

    It is evident that occult powers are not signs of true knowledge of reality and may deflect people from the real quest. They are not a hindrance to mukti (spiritual liberation). They are a hindrance on the way to mukti. Since they are realised with the mind (mental projections) they are impediments to Self-Realisation.
    Last edited by sarabhanga; 10 January 2008 at 10:56 PM.

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