Dream

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste vajvanji,

Hari Om
~~~~~

I agree these knots must be broken... this wisdom is not my epiphany, but of the Chandogya Upanishad ( I offer this for the reader as I assume you are well acquainted with these slokas ).
Chapter 7 holds the conversation between Narada and rsi Sanatkumara's teaching. Sanatkumaraji offers bhuma vidya.

When this bhuma becomes firm and constant then the knots are broken ,sarva-granthīnām vipramokṣha. Yet the knot in the heart, this hṛdayagranthi, is broken by the the perception of the Supreme, tasmin dṛṣhṭe parātpare.

But who is there to help? Who is there to assist to break this final knot?
bhagvan sanatkumara the Upanishad says, also known as skanda.

This is the blessing found in this Upanishad.

pranams,

Yes, you have summarized beautifully.

tadeshha shloko na pashyo mR^ityuM pashyati na rogaM nota duHkhataa\m+
sarva\m+ ha pashyaH pashyati sarvamaapnoti sarvasha iti
sa ekadhaa bhavati tridhaa bhavati paJNchadhaa
saptadhaa navadhaa chaiva punashchaikaadashaH smR^itaH
shataM cha dasha chaikashcha sahasraaNi cha
vi\m+shatiraahaarashuddhau sattvashuddhau dhruvaa smR^itiH
smR^itilambhe sarvagranthiinaaM vipramokshastasmai
mR^iditakashhaayaaya tamasaspaaraM darshayati
bhagavaansanatkumaarasta\m+ skanda ityaachakshate
ta\m+ skanda ityaachakshate || chAndogya Up 7.26.2||

When the food is pure, the mind becomes pure. When the mind is pure the memory becomes firm. When the memory is firm all knots are loosened. The venerable Sanatkumara showed Narada, after his blemishes had been wiped out, the other side of darkness. They call Sanatkumara Skanda, yea, Skanda they call him.


By food, all sensory inputs are meant, i.e by pure seeing, pure hearing, pure action etc. By always indulging in pure activities ( such as sat-sangha), the mind becomes pure. When mind becomes pure, memory or chitta becomes steady. When chitta becomes steady, the three knots loosen, and finally 'break'. To such a person who is freed from the three knots, grace of God personified by the son of God (known as Skanda) takes such a person to the father.( i.e Shiva)

The three knots are the knot of ignorance, knot of passion and knot of karma.

When the knot of ignorance is 'broken' it gives the first experience of the divine to the sAdhaka that makes him a true Astika and makes him very committed in his resolve of Atma-sAxAtkAra. Most of us always have the doubt whether there exists a God or anything supernatural - all such doubts are dispelled when the knot of ignorance is opened.

When the knot of passion is crossed over, it gives a permanent higher state of awareness associated with anAhata. Even when these people die and are reborn, they are born with great Yogic insight, knowledge of previous birth etc.

When the knot of karma is crossed, there is no more return to earthly existance - a permanent residence in Ishvara sAyujya is attained.

To such a Yogi the grace of Lord( in the form of skanda) reveals whatever there is to know - the ultimate turIya experience is conferred.

The Skanda concept( son of Shiva) has a close parallel with the Jesus concept of Christianity, where Jesus is also considered the son of God.

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste,

Surely. I said enjoyment of objects and women of Brahmaloka. I did not mention Jagat. Chandogya says that the physical body originating from womb of earthly mother is not known to Uttama Purusha.

Actually, Brahmaloka is used in two ways - one as the Brahmaloka equated with Brahman( this is Advaita's Brahmaloka), and another as Brahmaloka of Saguna Brahman. In the former, there isn't any notion of enjoyment of objects or women( which are siddhis) and is a state of positive existance of no activity. The latter Brahmaloka where there is enjoyment of objects is in the dualistic Jagat only.

Agreed. Who can ever become another Lord Krishna? But Uttama Purusha one can become and that is as per Chandogya Upanishad.

I should have said 'axara purusha' who is one and only one anAdimat Ishvara. You are right that the liberated soul does become 'uttama purusha'. But Sri Shankara does not accept this kind of existance as the highest mukti.

Yes. I agree to this, with a slight difference. One who has attained Brahmaloka, I think, has realised that it is the will of Lord that matters.

Yes. Since it is the Lord who has given existance to all these diverse jivas, it is his will that will prevail - whether a soul will stay with him enjoying great Ananda and his jagat-lila, or attain oneness in turIya.

~RL

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I agree these knots must be broken... this wisdom is not my epiphany, but of the Chāndogya Upanishad ( I offer this for the reader as I assume you are well acquainted with these slokas ).
Chapter 7 holds the conversation between Narada and rsi Sanatkumara's teaching. Sanatkumaraji offers bhuma vidya.

When this bhuma becomes firm and constant then the knots are broken ,sarva-granthīnām vipramokṣha. Yet the knot in the heart, this hṛdayagranthi, is broken by the the perception of the Supreme, tasmin dṛṣhṭe parātpare.

But who is there to help? Who is there to assist to break this final knot? bhagvan sanatkumara the Upanishad says, also known as skanda.This is the blessing found in this Upanishad.

Namaste HDF reader,
Rajalakshmi and I have been discussing the Chāndogya Upanishad, Chapter 7. Perhaps you are wondering of this knowledge and would like to read it, with some assistance in its understanding i.e. a good narrator and translator.

Let me offer the following:
Swami Krishnananda does an excellent job of bringing out the knowledge here.

Swami-ji's review of the Chāndayoga Upanisad
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/chhand_0.html

Specifically the Chapter on Bhuma Vidya
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/chhand/ch_3.html


Another translation I owe my debt to is Swami Muni Narayana Prasad; His publication is not on line as far as I can see... his book is published by D.K. Printworld (P) Ltd. The ISBN number is 81-246-0374-X

Are there others? Yes, but I list the ones I find most insightful.
It is my favorite Upanishad.


pranams

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,

Thanks to inputs from you, yajvan ji & Rajlakshmi, this discussion is proving to be gold-mine of knowledge ! Thanks.

It is a treat to read the inputs which have come & I am in dilemma, if I should interrupt here !

To refresh what we were discussing :

By asking whether there is a second 'conscious being' or not, I wished to indicate that the pin pricks are known by the Pragnya of Turya alone. Turya (and its Pragnya) being immortal, there will never be an occassion when the pin prick will not be cognised (though on recognising the body, pin, and all other on-lookers as transfiguration of Pragnya alone, the perspective of pain will drastically change. Then no pain will be external to the self). No-pain in Turya is not due to non-cognition but due to absolute lack of Adharma and Avidya.

Attaining Turya does not mean losing Pragnya. If that was so, then one would attain Turya under chloroform. I emphasize that the perceiver is ONE. And when it is said that 'all are same' or 'Brahman is all' -- the primary meaning is that it is NOT TWO.

As I see it, we are seeing the things in two different ways. To explain my POV,

i) "pin pricks are known by the Pragnya of Turya" ====> My understanding is that pin-pricks can be known only in Visva, Taijsa & Pragnya. Actually all these three states co-exist in duality but Turiya is absence of all the three. The cognizance, the cognizer, the memory of a phenomenon & births of related phenomena cease to exist in Turiya / the True Being.

ii) "Turya (and its Pragnya) being immortal, there will never be an occassion when the pin prick will not be cognised" ====> The way I understand it, can, perhaps, be understood with questions ---> What is pin prick but not Brahman ? What is cognizance but not Brahman ? For True-being to cognise pin-prick as pin-prick, there must be three different entities -- True-being, pin-prick & cognizance, which violates the Non-duality of the True-being & hence that is not possible.

iii) "No-pain in Turya is not due to non-cognition but due to absolute lack of Adharma and Avidya" ====> Again the question is, " Where do Adharma & Avidya" go in Turiya ? What is "Avidya", if that too is not Brahman ? What is "illusion" if it is not the "reality" seen through mind ? If there exists anything which is "Avidya" or "illusion" which is not Brahman, then Non-duality of Brahman gets violated again & hence that is not again possible.

iv) "Attaining Turya does not mean losing Pragnya. If that was so, then one would attain Turya under chloroform" ===> My understanding is that unless Pragnya dissloves, it is not really Turiya. Pragnya is still identification though of the highest order, all-knowing & all powerful & is within duality.

IMHO, the attaining of Turiya is fallacious understanding. "Who" will attain Turiya ? Turiya is already there, there is no need to attain it, much less by "anyone" ---- the Truth is Not manifested because we are clinging to the falsehood.

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,

Let me put a counter question. How and why Lord comes as Guru and Avatara, if He is not aware of pain and suffering within His being?

That has kept me thinking for hours together to understand through your way !

My understanding is simple. This pain, suffering, Lord, Guru & Avatara .... have meaning only within duality i.e. upto the three states of Visva, Taijsa & Pragnya. Within these states, there is differentiation & individuality & hence there is pain & suffering, remedy & help, devotee & Lord. Lord & Guru are the Pragnya state & hence they must know everything. However, there is no such thing in Ultimate Reality/True-being/Turiya. These are all manifestation within the Ultimate Reality ... the phenomenoa of waves on the sea. In reality, there are no waves, there is just Sea manifesting simultaneously as the Sea & the waves,

Regards,

devotee

[atanu]

Namaskar Devotee,

i) "pin pricks are known by the Pragnya of Turya" ====> My understanding is that pin-pricks can be known only in Visva, Taijsa & Pragnya. Actually all these three states co-exist in duality but Turiya is absence of all the three. The cognizance, the cognizer, the memory of a phenomenon & births of related phenomena cease to exist in Turiya / the True Being.

I agree.

ii) "Turya (and its Pragnya) being immortal, there will never be an occassion when the pin prick will not be cognised" ====> The way I understand it, can, perhaps, be understood with questions ---> What is pin prick but not Brahman ? What is cognizance but not Brahman ? For True-being to cognise pin-prick as pin-prick, there must be three different entities -- True-being, pin-prick & cognizance, which violates the Non-duality of the True-being & hence that is not possible.

I agree with one reservation. The Self as non-dual is 'Satya of Satya' while Self animating three states as life force is Satya. His three states are His alone.

So, deciding to be subjected to pin pricks (along with other pleasures and miseries of flesh) is His will and volition. The view of ego (bhandasura) is defective. But when intellect realises that there is ONE Aham, the Bhandasura drops dead.

ii) "No-pain in Turya is not due to non-cognition but due to absolute lack of Adharma and Avidya" ====> Again the question is, " Where do Adharma & Avidya" go in Turiya ? What is "Avidya", if that too is not Brahman ? What is "illusion" if it is not the "reality" seen through mind ? If there exists anything which is "Avidya" or "illusion" which is not Brahman, then Non-duality of Brahman gets violated again & hence that is not again possible.

I agree. Non-duality of Turya is 'Satya of Satya'. Yet, Turya pervading the three states is Satya. What I mean to say is: Being in Turya or being Visvarupa is His decision and volition and not Ego's.

iv) "Attaining Turya does not mean losing Pragnya. If that was so, then one would attain Turya under chloroform" ===> My understanding is that unless Pragnya dissloves, it is not really Turiya. Pragnya is still identification though of the highest order, all-knowing & all powerful & is within duality.

IMHO, the attaining of Turiya is fallacious understanding. "Who" will attain Turiya ? Turiya is already there, there is no need to attain it, much less by "anyone" ---- the Truth is Not manifested because we are clinging to the falsehood.

Yes. Yet, who are We? -------- (Though Satay has warned me, I could not resist it). There is only the Self. 'We' is His various forms through His volition.

Let me put a counter question. How and why Lord comes as Guru and Avatara, if He is not aware of pain and suffering within His being?

That has kept me thinking for hours together to understand through your way !

My understanding is simple. This pain, suffering, Lord, Guru & Avatara .... have meaning only within duality i.e. upto the three states of Visva, Taijsa & Pragnya. Within these states, there is differentiation & individuality & hence there is pain & suffering, remedy & help, devotee & Lord. Lord & Guru are the Pragnya state & hence they must know everything. However, there is no such thing in Ultimate Reality/True-being/Turiya. These are all manifestation within the Ultimate Reality ... the phenomenoa of waves on the sea. In reality, there are no waves, there is just Sea manifesting simultaneously as the Sea & the waves,

That is why I felt that you, by bringing in questions on dreams, triggered an excellent Vichara. And I thank you again for this.

Your explanation is fine, except for two points. First, again I remind that Self is 'Satya of Satya' of three states, which exist on account of the Self alone. Second, in Pragnya also there is no world, no body, no thoughts and so no pain (whether for the ignorant or for the enlightened). Enlightened in that state are Sthithipragnya yogis.

(The dual Visva and Taijjassa may not be at all painful for the non-ignorant, who is able to see One Visva and One Taijjassa as the two padas of the Advaita Self.)

Regards,

Om

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,

It is suggested that svapna is closer to samadhi. Swami Laksmanjoo says if in dream state compared to jagrat (or waking state) samadhi is much closer, easier to reach, from this state of consciousness.

Compared with taijasa (dreaming), prAj�a (deep sleep) is even �closer� to samAdhi, but it is not possible to reach samAdhi from unconsciousness.

The teaching of svAmI lakshmanjU is not advaitavAda; rather, his �parAdvaita� is a kind of dvaitAdvaita or vishiSTAdvaita vAda.

Neither jAgrat nor svapna, alone, is any nearer to samAdhi, but the yoga is (of course) found in their twin, the jAgratsvapnau (�wakeful sleep� or �lucid dreaming�). And the parAdevI may be found in this jAgratsvapnau ~ although parAdevI is bhairavI, who is only the mAyA of bhairava. Such shAktopAya occurs in taijasa, and it may lead one to brahmA and brAhmI (i.e. to nArAyaNa), but not to brahma (or nara). shAmbhavopAya, however, may lead one directly to advaitam.

The bhaNDasura is the bandhapAsha and the pashubandha.

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,

Very thoughtful inputs ! Thanks !!

By seamless conciousness, I wanted to describe the state where there is no sense of duality. There is duality in all the three states below Turiya & therefore, the "Oneness" is not seamless.

--

Namaste Devotee,

This is the only point of mis-understanding and it is crucial. The Seamless Turya is never missing but is hidden by Adhyasha -- by movement of thoughts starting with "I am Awake", "I am Dreaming", and "I am sleeping blissfully and do not know anything".

This is most crucial, since else Bhandasura gets a credential of reality. Bhandasura is as real as the Turya has seen it to be. Not more not less.

Om

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,

A vividiSu-saMnyAsin is �desirous of knowing or learning�, and vividiSu-saMnyAsa is �renunciation while living in the world�. And a vidvat-saMnyAsin is �one who knows� (�a wise man, sage, or seer�), and vidvat-saMnyAsa is �renunciation due to paravairAgya�.

The vidvat-saMnyAsin has totally exhausted all desires, including the desire for self-realization, and this is the highest order of saMnyAsa ~ the turIyAtIta.

The turya is neuter ~ brahma (voc.) and brahma (nom.) ~ �beyond the beyond� and beyond all duality ~ known as hara or nara.

The turIya is masculine ~ brahman (voc.) and brahmA (nom.) ~ �the beyond� or macrocosm ~ known as hari or nArAyaNa.

The turIyAtIta is masculine ~ brAhma (voc.) and brAhmaH (nom.) ~ �here and now� or microcosm ~ both nAra and nAri, and known as hAra and hAri. And the turIyAtIta is also explicitly feminine ~ brAhmi (voc.) and brAhmI (nom.).

In the turIya (as masculine brahmA) there is also the implication of a similar feminine form, while the turya brahma is beyond any gender and always neuter.

The turIyAtIta is known as the padam, which is sthA.
The turIya is known as the paraM padam, which is parastAt.
And the turya is known as the paramaM padam, which is paramparastAt.

The turya brahma, as advaitam, eternally resounds only �am�.
The turIya brahmA, together with mAyA, at the moment of creation, says �I am�.
And the turIyAtIta brAhma, in samAdhi, says �I am brahman�.

turya = praj�A = IshAna = sadAshiva
turIya = prAj�A = tatpuruSa = umAvaktra
turIyAtIta = prAj�a = aghora = nandivaktra
taijasa = aj�a = vAmadeva = bhairava
vaishvAnara = Aj�A = sadyojAta = mahAdeva

And the mANDukya has compressed turIya (tatpuruSa) and turIyAtIta (aghora) into the one class of prAj�a, which itself has a double meaning, as pra-aj�a (deep sleep or unconsciousness) and pra-Aj�a (great intelligence or mighty power).

suSupti (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness) is the same as prAj�a or pra-aj�a (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness); and this is the appearance of turIyAtIta consciousness. The turIya-atIta has �passed away� into the turIya, as �one who has gone beyond�.

turya = praj�A = sahasrAra
turIya = prAj�A = Aj�A
turIyAtIta = prAj�a = vishuddha

The praj�A of turya is the indiscriminate wisdom of sahasrAra, and the prAj�A of turIya is the wisely discriminating intelligence of Aj�A. The �thousand rays� remain uncounted and effectively advaita (as absolute illumination), while the two rays of Aj�A are decisively dvaitAdvaita. And all sense of dvaitam is extinguished when consciousness is raised beyond the limits of Aj�A cakram.

The �great forgetting� occurs in samAdhi, and the turIyAtIta, in samAdhi, knows only �I am brahman�. The forgetting is matured in the turIyAtIta, and realized as wisdom in the turIya consciousness. And one who has tasted the nectar of turya will always be turIyAtIta.

turya brahma = sat
turIya brahmA = cit
turIyAtIta brAhmaNa = Ananda

[atanu]

Namaste,
Actually, Brahmaloka is used in two ways - one as the Brahmaloka equated with Brahman( this is Advaita's Brahmaloka), and another as Brahmaloka of Saguna Brahman. In the former, there isn't any notion of enjoyment of objects or women( which are siddhis) and is a state of positive existance of no activity. The latter Brahmaloka where there is enjoyment of objects is in the dualistic Jagat only.

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

I repeat that the Women are the verses.

I have talked of Brahmloka of Brahma Sutras, Chandogya Upanishad, and Brihadarayanaka. From that loka one does not return, but is taken by a special Purusha (no doubt Ishwara) to Brahman. This Brahmloka cannot be the dualistic jagat of ignorance. On the other hand, Advaitic Brahman is Net-Neti and Brahmaloka of Brahma Sutras can only be a stop to that Brahman.

And the mANDukya has compressed turIya (tatpuruSa) and turIyAtIta (aghora) into the one class of prAj�a, which itself has a double meaning, as pra-aj�a (deep sleep or unconsciousness) and pra-Aj�a (great intelligence or mighty power).

suSupti (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness) is the same as prAj�a or pra-aj�a (deep sleep or complete unconsciousness); and this is the appearance of turIyAtIta consciousness.
--------
And one who has tasted the nectar of turya will always be turIyAtIta

I have quoted (from Shri Sarabhanga) the most relevant portion that pertains to the relation between Turya (the anadimat Self) and Turiyatita experiencer. I have tried to convey both these points. Shushupti is two fold (as is all states) and that crossing the ignorance of Shushupti and tasting Turya, losing the baggage of karma and ignorance, settled in the knowledge of the Self, a Brahmana becomes Turiyatita, also called Uttama Purusha. (I cannot even imagine that Uttama Purusha Shri Krishna is not a knower of Turya. At the same time, I cannot imagine that Shri Krishna is beyond Brahman-Self.)

Such a realizer of one's own nature, is inseparable from the Self but is free to animate any body anywhere. He is not entitled to world maintenace powers since those are delegated powers to Prajapati Kala and beings under Him, from the beginning of a kalpa. However the great Self being the self everywhere, He is still the master controller. And since a desire for power (like of Ishwara etc.) is likely to be the hurdle that will never allow a sadhaka to attain Turya, the question of attaining world administrative powers do not arise.

YMMV. Regards,

Om