Dream

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste,


Compared with taijasa (dreaming), prAj�a (deep sleep) is even �closer� to samAdhi, but it is not possible to reach samAdhi from unconsciousness.

The teaching of svAmI lakshmanjU is not advaitavAda; rather, his �parAdvaita� is a kind of dvaitAdvaita or vishiSTAdvaita vAda.

Neither jAgrat nor svapna, alone, is any nearer to samAdhi, but the yoga is (of course) found in their twin, the jAgratsvapnau (�wakeful sleep� or �lucid dreaming�). And the parAdevI may be found in this jAgratsvapnau ~ although parAdevI is bhairavI, who is only the mAyA of bhairava. Such shAktopAya occurs in taijasa, and it may lead one to brahmA and brAhmI (i.e. to nArAyaNa), but not to brahma (or nara). shAmbhavopAya, however, may lead one directly to advaitam.

The bhaNDasura is the bandhapAsha and the pashubandha.

The idea of 'sleep' and 'deep sleep' being close to samAdhi is neither advaitavAda nor dvaitavAda but plain wrong knowledge. If it were true then we have a chance of getting a samAdhi every night without any conscious effort!

'wakeful sleep' is close to samAdhi and 'wakeful deep sleep' is samprajnata/asamprajnata samAdhi as described by patanjali.

srI vidyAraNya in his pancadashi( 1.60) describes dharma megha samAdhi to be the highest stage reached in Yoga( complete knowledge of prAjna and eradication of all vAsanas) before individual notion is destroyed in the great oneness of turIya.

From panchadasi:

1.54. And, when by shravaNa and manana the mind develops a firm and undoubted conviction, and dwells constantly on the thus ascertained Self alone, it is called unbroken meditation (nididhyAsana).

1.55. When the mind gradually leaves off the ideas of the meditator and the act of meditation and is merged in the sole object of meditation. (viz., the Self), and is steady like the flame of a lamp in a breezeless spot, it is called the super-conscious state (samAdhi).

1.56. Though in samadhi there is no subjective cognition of the mental function having the Self as its object, its continued existence in that state is inferred from the recollection after coming out of samadhi.

1.57. The mind continues to be fixed in paramAtman in the state of samadhi as a result of the effort of will made prior to its achievement and helped by the merits of previous births and the strong impression created through constant efforts.
1.58. The same idea Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna in various ways e.g., when he compares the steady mind to the flame of a lamp in a breezeless spot.
1.59. As a result of this (nirvikalpa) samadhi millions of results of actions, accumulated in this beginningless world over past and present births, are destroyed, and pure dharma (helpful to the realisation of Truth) grows.
1.60. The experts in Yoga call this samadhi �a rain cloud of dharma� (dharma megha) because it pours forth countless showers of the bliss of dharma.
1.61. The entire network of desires is fully destroyed and the accumulated actions known as merits and demerits are fully rooted out by this samAdhi.
1.62. Then the great dictum, freed from the obstacles (of doubt and ambiguity), gives rise to a direct realisation of the Truth, as a fruit in one�s palm � Truth which was earlier comprehended indirectly.
1.63. The knowledge of Brahman obtained indirectly from the Guru, teaching the meaning of the great dictum, burns up like fire all sins, committed upto that attainment of knowledge.
1.64. The direct realisation of the knowledge of the Self obtained from the Guru�s teaching of the great dictum, is like the scorching sun, that dispels the very darkness of Avidya, the root of all transmigratory existence.
1.65. Thus a man distinguishes the Self from the five sheaths, concentrates the mind on It according to the scriptural injunctions, becomes free from the bonds of repeated births and deaths and immediately attains the supreme bliss.



~RL

[yajvan]

There is only the Self. 'We' is His various forms through His volition.

Namaste atanu,

this is the wisdom of the ages... if just to live this every minute, we can take all the books, all the shastras, and put them back on the shelves.

pranams

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

'wakeful sleep' is close to samAdhi and 'wakeful deep sleep' is samprajnata/asamprajnata samAdhi as described by patanjali.

RL

Namaste Rajalakshmi,
I like the notion of wakeful sleep you use... as that is the experience many have during meditation - some call it restful alertness, others have mentioned dynamic calm to try and communicate the experience. For me, restfully alert is simple words that meet my experience.

I have found on many occasions that the transition from wake to sleep, this gap we have discussed previously has yielded turIya. I have also found that if one is mindful of this time period it is good training for the mind.

Also regarding this notion of being closer (or farther away) to samadhi and Swami Laksman joo's POV on this matter. I respect his teachings and offer his words for ones cogitation. As I see it, one needs to look at their experiences and see how this is in sync or not. For some that does not meditate for their sadhana, its all words and may be seen as academic.

Swami Laksman joo's approach and views are that of Kasmir Saivism. This approach is different and spending time studying it brings a wealth of insights ( for me).

For me, learning is comparing and contrasting different views and different schools i.e. the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy. When something new is offered, it is a delight to try and understand it, see what I know about it and how it runs parallel to the information I have... With Kasmir Saivism I have been richly rewarded.

pranams

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,

Namaste Devotee,

This is the only point of mis-understanding and it is crucial. The Seamless Turya is never missing but is hidden by Adhyasha -- by movement of thoughts starting with "I am Awake", "I am Dreaming", and "I am sleeping blissfully and do not know anything".

This is most crucial, since else Bhandasura gets a credential of reality. Bhandasura is as real as the Turya has seen it to be. Not more not less.

Om

Thanks for your explanation. I agree with your views, though I have used different words, apparently meaning slightly different. Actually, the Nature of the True Being cannot be expressed except using negation of all that is known or can be known.

By saying that "Seamless Oneness" is at Turiya level, I never meant that Turiya was ever absent. How can it be claimed that the sea is absent when the waves obsure the vision of sea (because the waves are there because of the sea) ? So, I agree with your statement that "Turya is never missing but is hidden".

Regarding pin-prick too, I cannot deny your POV. The True Nature is Just Is, the way it is, whatever it is, being sole cause of its being, there is no other cause.

I have some different views on Pragnya & Turiya ---

"Second, in Pragnya also there is no world, no body, no thoughts and so no pain"

---- IMO, world exists here, otherwise duality won't exist. "Esha sarvesvarah" --- Sarvesvarah == Sarva + Eashwarah ----> If World doesn't exist in Pragnya, "Sarva" will become meaningless. There is Sarva ( which is not-Easvara) & there is Easwara. Similarly, "Esha sarvajnah" also indicates the similar duality & presence of World which is known by the Sarvajna.

Regards.

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu,

Thanks for your explanation. I agree with your views, though I have used different words, apparently meaning slightly different. Actually, the Nature of the True Being cannot be expressed except using negation of all that is known or can be known.

By saying that "Seamless Oneness" is at Turiya level, I never meant that Turiya was ever absent. How can it be claimed that the sea is absent when the waves obsure the vision of sea (because the waves are there because of the sea) ? So, I agree with your statement that "Turya is never missing but is hidden".

Regarding pin-prick too, I cannot deny your POV. The True Nature is Just Is, the way it is, whatever it is, being sole cause of its being, there is no other cause.

I have some different views on Pragnya & Turiya --- ---- IMO, world exists here, otherwise duality won't exist. "Esha sarvesvarah" --- Sarvesvarah == Sarva + Eashwarah ----> If World doesn't exist in Pragnya, "Sarva" will become meaningless. There is Sarva ( which is not-Easvara) & there is Easwara. Similarly, "Esha sarvajnah" also indicates the similar duality & presence of World which is known by the Sarvajna.

Regards.

Namaste Devotee,

We have reached good and mature agreements, one last difference pending.

WRT the third pada, the description in Mandukya is:

Where the sleeper desires not a thing of enjoyment and sees not any dream, that state is deep sleep. (The Self) seated in the state of deep sleep and called Prajna, in whom everything is unified, who is dense with consciousness, who is full of bliss, who is certainly the enjoyer of bliss, and who is the door to the knowledge (of the preceding two states), is the third quarter.


No doubt Esha Sarvesvara indicates presence of Sarva, yet I think Esha Sarvesvara here is a compound ONE only. Prajna is Prajnaghana, there cannot be a second entity here. The Sarva may be there as seed since it is also called the door to the knowledge of the second (Taijjassa) and the first (Vaisvanaro) states. Karikas say as below:

I-13. The non-cognition of duality is common to both Prajna and Turiya. Prajna is possessed of sleep of the nature of cause, whereas that sleep does not exist in Turiya.

IMO (based on Karikas), this third state is also Non-Dual. The manifold beginning of the world is in Taijjassa (dreams/thoughts). The greatness of the Mandukya is that it dovetails the highest truths with one's everyday confirmable experiences.


Regards,

The True Nature is Just Is, the way it is, whatever it is, being sole cause of its being, there is no other cause.

This is a great way to express it. Shivam Shivam.

Om

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

How can it be claimed that the sea is absent when the waves obsure the vision of sea (because the waves are there because of the sea).

A most wonderful view...

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,

sarva is �whole, wholly, entire, all, of all kinds, altogether, completely, in all parts, every, every one, everything, everywhere, manifold, various, or different�. And sarva indicates �the water�.

And sarveshvara is �the lord of all, the universal monarch, or the supreme being�.

sarveshvara is �the whole lord�, �wholly the lord�, �the lord of the whole�, �the all lord�, �the lord of all�, �the lord of all kinds�, �altogether lord�, �completely lord�, �the lord in all parts�, �in all parts the lord�, �every lord�, �the lord of every one�, �the lord of everything�, �the lord of everywhere�, �everywhere the lord�, �the manifold lord�, �the various lord�, the distinguished lord�, �the lord of distinction�, �the water lord�, or �the lord of the water�.

sarveshvara is nArAyaNa (�the son of man�), and sarveshvara is the tIrtha�kara (who makes �the crossing�), and sarveshvara is mInanAtha (�the fish lord� and �the lord of fishers�). And sarveshvara is the created brahmabIja in the uncreated brahmayoni (which is �the virgin birth of the lord of all kRSTayas�).

And note that �pragnya� is a rather confusing word, since it does not distinguish between three quite different conceptions ~ praj�A, prAj�A, and prAj�a. So, without further clarification, the term �pragnya� is bound to cause misunderstanding and endless disagreement of opinions.

[devotee]

Namaste Atanu,

The quote from Karika has put me into thinking mode again !

Can you explain the term, "possessed of sleep of the nature of cause" ?

Regards

Namaste Sarabhanga,

And note that �pragnya� is a rather confusing word, since it does not distinguish between three quite different conceptions ~ praj�A, prAj�A, and prAj�a. So, without further clarification, the term �pragnya� is bound to cause misunderstanding and endless disagreement of opinions.

Thanks for your clarification on Sarveswara.

The three Prajnas have bowled me out clean ! Will you please elaborate ?

Regards

[sarabhanga]

SaTcakramAtRkA.

prajñA = sahasrAra = turya = M
prAjñA = AjñA = shambhu = AUM
prAjña = vishuddha = sadAshiva = haM
ajña = anAhata = IshAna = yaM
AjñA = maNipUra = rudra = raM
ajñA = svAdhiSThAna = viSNu = vaM
jña = mUlAdhAra = brahmA = laM

And in this context, the turya (even more subtle than shambhu) is known as parashiva (parabrahma or brahmapara).



1. The vaishvAnara consciousness ~ A ~ the wisdom of brahmacaryAshrama.

“Of this benevolent one who is the object of our invocation, there is an all-pervading middle brother, and a third brother who is well fed with oblations of ghee. Here I behold the Lord with seven sons.”

I = vaishvAnara = AjñA = sadyojAta = mahAdeva = maNipUra = rudra = aitareya

And yudhiSThira knows this!

2. The taijasa consciousness ~ U ~ the wisdom of gRhasthAshrama

“They yoke the seven to the one-wheeled chariot; and the single courser named Seven draws it. Three-naved is the wheel, sound and undecaying, whereon all these worlds of being are resting.”

II = taijasa = ajña = vAmadeva = bhairava = anAhata = IshAna = bRhadAraNyaka

And bhIma knows this!

3. The prAjña consciousness ~ M ~ the wisdom of vAnaprasthAshrama.

“The seven who are mounted on the seven-wheeled chariot are the seven horses who draw it onward. Seven sisters ride in it together, in whom the names of the seven rays are treasured.”

III = turIyAtIta = prAjña = aghora = nandivaktra = vishuddha = sadAshiva = chAndogya

And arjuna knows this!

4. The turIya consciousness ~ AUM ~ the wisdom of saMnyAsAshrama.

“Who hath beheld him as he sprang to being, seen how the boneless one supports the bony? Where is the blood of earth, the life, the spirit? Who may approach the man who knows to ask it?”

IIII = turIya = prAjñA = tatpuruSa = umAvaktra = AjñA = shambhu = mANDUkya

And nakula knows this!

5. The turya consciousness ~ [M] ~ the perfect wisdom of the avadhUta.

Only silent paÑcAksharamantra.

V = turya = prajñA = IshAna = sadAshiva = sahasrAra = paramashiva = Isha

And sahadeva knows this!

“The seven who are mounted on the seven-wheeled chariot are the seven horses who draw it onward.
And seven sisters ride in it together, in whom the names of the seven rays are treasured.”

turya = prajñA = sahasrAra cakra = brahmaloka = brahma = shAni = kashyapa

turIya = prAjñA = AjñA cakra = taparloka = shambhu = guru = vasiSTha

turIyAtIta = prAjña = vishuddha cakra = janarloka = sadAshiva = soma = gautama

taijasa = ajña = anAhata cakra = maharloka = IshAna = sUrya = atri

vaishvAnara = AjñA = maNipUra cakra = svarloka = rudra = maÑgala = bharadvAja

vishvAnara = ajñA = svAdhiSThAna cakra = bhuvarloka = viSNu = shukra = jamadagni

vishva = jña = mUlAdhAra cakra = bhUloka = brahmA = budha = vishvAmitra

There are seven lights, but only six lights are distinguished and extinguished, with the seventh light of all lights being unborn and eternal. And there is NOTHING beyond satyaloka or brahmaloka (the brahmayoni of nirvRtti), which alone is aja, eka, ananta, advaita, and shiva. And ALL else is the hiraNyagarbha, the brahmabIja of pravRtti, the soma of prakRti, and mAyA.

nara is akala (“not in parts”); and nArAyaNa is his kalam (“seed”), which is kAla (“enumerated”). And in yoga, nara and nArAyaNa are realized as non-different (a perfect twin), and the naranArAyaNau is observed. And naranArAyaNa is another name for kRSNa.

And the curriculum is ancient and unfailing!

“Upon this five-spoked wheel revolving ever, all living creatures rest and are dependent.
Its axle, heavy-laden, is not heated: the nave from ancient time remains unbroken.”

[sarabhanga]

The teaching of svAmI lakshmanjU is not advaitavAda; rather, his �parAdvaita� is a kind of dvaitAdvaita or vishiSTAdvaita vAda.

Swami Laksman joo's approach and views are that of Kasmir Saivism.

parAdvaita is commonly known as �kAshmIra shaiva�, and we have a special subforum here on HDF for such parAdvaitavAda, but it has (strangely) remained untouched for many months now.