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Thread: Dream

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    Dream

    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".

    A dream is like a drama in which several characters take part. Scientific explanation of dream is that the "story" & the "characters" in a dream are creation of mind taking impressions from our expreriences in real life in the past.

    Now, let's analyse this "dream" thing.

    All dreams are created by "me", within "me", wholly with the materials of "me" ( stimulants may be from outside but they are just stimulants, actual thing has to be created out of "me" only), therefore, the dream cannot be anything other than the "me". So whatever comes in the dream is
    just a part of "me"( or say, different manifestations of "me") .... that includes the story, the characters, their specific roles, dialogues etc. So, just one "me" manifests itself into "many" which apparently look completely different.

    Now, the greatest surprise is not this. Say, in a dream there are two characters ... one "me" & the other "my friend". The "me" in the dream gives a sense of real "me" in the dream too but not "my friend" in the dream. "My friend" in the dream acts as a separate individual on his own ... in fact, "he" sometimes does things which not expected by "me". How does he do like that ? If he is just a charater of a story written by my mind, his act should be known to "me" ... which is not the case.
    So, there must be an "I" in him too, apparently different from my "I", to be able to act in such an indendent manner. If my "I" is not making him "live" & a "separate entity" who/what does it ? Where does this seemingly independent "I" come from ? This must come from "me" as there is no
    one else !

    There is another surprise too. Though there is already an "I" in the dream, there is another who is watching the whole dream ... as if the "I" has got divided into two. Many a times, the "I" of the dream doesn't exactly behave as the "I" in reality.

    .... How can "I" play multiple roles & maintain separate individualities all at the same time. How is it logically explained ? The only logical explanation can be that what appears as "I" is capable of manifesting itself in multitude maintaining separate individualities in its different roles, all at
    the same time which we are unable to understand.

    Doesn't that gives an insight into the mystery behind this whole "creation" ?
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".

    .... How can "I" play multiple roles & maintain separate individualities all at the same time. How is it logically explained ? The only logical explanation can be that what appears as "I" is capable of manifesting itself in multitude maintaining separate individualities in its different roles, all at
    the same time which we are unable to understand.

    Doesn't that gives an insight into the mystery behind this whole "creation" ?
    Namaste Devotee,
    two different ideas here:
    • a most interesting post... do you have an opinion on this? While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?
    • While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there.
    pranams
    (nice to see you posting!)
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 January 2008 at 09:46 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Two different ideas here:
    • a most interesting post... do you have an opinion on this? While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?
    • While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there.
    Namaste yajvan,

    I hope you are well !

    "While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?" ====> If I remember correctly, that is what called "Lucid Dreaming" or "Concious Dreaming". The Tibetan Monks are supposed to have done extensive reasearch on this.

    I was able to manage my dreams sometimes , as I recall. There were some dreams in which things happened in such a manner which were not at all acceptable to me. So, in dream itself, the "I" took control over the things & changed the events to make them acceptable. You may laugh at this but this is what actually happened ! :lol:

    "While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there."

    I think you are talking about the dreamless state. This is also called the "Pure state of being" ... as you name it the "Turiya" or the fourth state. I think what you say is right. Now, that gives me another insight. If "Turiya" shines in dreamless state, that also proves that Turiya gets covered only due to the waking state i.e. the state which differentiates & which shows this world. In the Turiya/Dreamless state, there is no differentiation & no world, yet there is conciousness & the continuity. So, with that it further follows that as the mind takes over, Turiya gets hidden. And as mind gets hidden in the pure state, does it prove that mind & Turiya are same things in different states ? i.e. essentially they are not different ? What do you say ?
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Devotee,

    Thank you for your post...

    Regarding your experience of managing your dream... very interesting.
    Another question - ever be in a dream and in that dream you are dreaming? I found this to be a unique experience. It also shows just how flexible the mind can be.

    It is suggested that this dream state some call svapna, is closer to samadhi. Swami Laksmanjoo says if in dream state compared to jagrat (or waking state) samadhi is much closer, easier to reach, from this state of consciousness. So , if are able to manage your dreams you may want to consider this opportunity.

    It is also interesting to note that some folks report that during their meditations while in waking state ( jagrat) and during the process of transcending, when that transcendence is not held in place, the subtleness of restful alertness, they slip into (or find themselves) in dream state. So goes the march of the mind.

    Re: Turiya - a most important matter. We had a most lively discussion on this back in August 2007. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

    Lots of knowledge and POV's, let alone information from the Upanishads came out. A rewarding set of posts. If you get a chance take a look.

    This turiya is what makes all 'this' possible. It is the foundation for all states of consciousness, yet is behind them all.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Dream

    Namaste yajvan,

    A nice post & a very good link. Thanks !

    "Another question - ever be in a dream and in that dream you are dreaming? I found this to be a unique experience. It also shows just how flexible the mind can be."

    Dreaming in a dream ? I don't know. Yes, there have been dreams, where I found claiming (in the dream) that it is all dream .... but no-one around (in the dream) listened to me ! :lol:

    It is not that I can conciously manage my dreams. I managed it a few times when things were too unacceptable ! How it was done, is not known. Regarding taking that route you suggested, IMO, it needs a proper Guru & sufficient time which unfortunately I don't have.

    The link provided in your post was excellent. While reading Mandukya Upanishad, I had to read those verses & explanations again & again & had some idea of my own. Now, that got better by reading the discussion between you & Atanu. That discussion is really good. Thanks to both you & Atanu !!
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".
    -
    Now, let's analyse this "dream" thing.

    ---There is another surprise too. Though there is already an "I" in the dream, there is another who is watching the whole dream ... as if the "I" has got divided into two. Many a times, the "I" of the dream doesn't exactly behave as the "I" in reality.
    Namaste Devotee,

    Excellent Vichara.

    There is a questioner here (as in every man questioning). As per me, the surprises are to the questioner. In most cases (may be 99.99%), the questioner assumes 'This is me, this body is me, dreams are arising in me and i am seeing the dreams.'

    The questioner is Bhandasura (fake demon) who is ignorant of the common truth of all three states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Most questioners cannot ask questions while in a dream (though you say that it is possible and you have exprienced it, which I believe) or in deep sleep (Nachiketa did it under much more difficult situation).

    This questioner is only active in waking state. When his control (ego thoughts) is loosened a bit and the fleshy vision is dimmed, the light bodies (which are always there) become evident. Then the dreaming man takes over yet he is the same Bhandasura but here he does not know the waking or deep sleep. This dreaming Bhandasura also loses control and then the darkness reigns. Yet the pleasant recharging in this dark state remains in memory and is reflected in the waking Bhandasura. In the deep sleep also a trace of this Bhandasura thinking 'I am sleeping' remains.

    It is the thinker, whose all thoughts relate to the false (bhanda) ego existence, who is the Bhandasura. It is said that absolute absence of thought can only reveal the true being who sports in all states and remains transcendental to the states. It is also said that through penetrating thoughts (such as you have presented), ego thoughts can come to halt.

    It is said that one has to apprehend the questioner first in order to apprehend the Seer.

    ---------------------

    A question which occured to me before (to which Yajvan ji made a reply) is of waking state. If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?

    Is it because that the body of a particular perceiver alone is satyam in the sense that it alone is the seat of particular cognition (created for fulfilling various needs etc) and other bodies are just attendants for fulfilling those particular needs but are not the seats of cognition?

    The questioner is rampant and fervent.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    A question which occured to me before (to which Yajvan ji made a reply) is of waking state. If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?

    Is it because that the body of a particular perceiver alone is satyam in the sense that it alone is the seat of particular cognition (created for fulfilling various needs etc) and other bodies are just attendants for fulfilling those particular needs but are not the seats of cognition?
    Thank you, Atanu, for a lucid explanation.

    The "Bhandasura" concept helps understand this dilemma in an easier way. Actually, this "Bhandasura" which is born out of "I"-thought is itself fake & is capable of taking many forms. So, when we try to reach the root of the "I"-thought, Bhandasura disappears, because it was never there in reality !

    Let me try to solve your puzzle :

    "If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?"

    My explanation to this puzzle is :

    That is because the seamless oneness of the conciousness is at the Turiya state & not below that.

    In the example of the dream, the Bhandasura concept explains the two "I"s but it doesn't explain the "you", "he", "they" etc. (the other characters who (apparently) are "not-I") which are also there in the dream. I gave the example of "My-friend" in dream. Let's analyse this character a bit more deeply. When "my friend" in the dream gets hurt, the "I" in the dream or even "I" who is watching the dream doesn't feel the pain. Does it mean that "My friend" in the dream is someone else than "I" ? It can't be ... because in reality, there is no-one except me ! So, "My friend" is nothing but another manifestation of "me" only. So, in spite of the fact that "My friend" in the dream is nothing but "me" in a different role, neither "I" of the dream nor "I" who is watching feels the pain when "my friend" gets hurt in the dream.

    IMO, the above explains the answer to your question. The source of "I" of the dream, "I"-the watcher & "My friend in the dream" is the same & is capable of playing different roles at the same time with entirely different individuality ( to a level where when one is hurt, other doesn't feel the pain). As long as the individuality / duality remains, there is "my pain" or "other's pain". At the level of seamless oneness ( Turiya state) there is no "I", there is no "You", there is no "other" & also, there is no pain. I, you, he, she, it & they are all one but that oneness is not at the level we can feel pain or say "I", "my", "his" etc. It is at that level where all these words lose their meanings.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Namaste everyone.

    Thanks to Devotee for initiating a thread with refreshingly different and useful POVs about dreams, the dreaming state and world. May I add my impressions and reasoning about what I have read and experienced on the subject.

    As to the dreaming 'person'

    Devotee has nicely brought out the truths that a dream is a creation by 'me' where 'I' participate in/as different 'characters' and also watch over the whole thing! This division and multiplication of the 'I' is a good example, says Devotee, of the 'One becoming Many'.

    As Yajvan and Atanu has pointed out, it is the Atman that shines through all the four states: waking, dreaming, deep sleep and 'turIya'. It seems to me that Atman in its natural states of 'turIya' and deep sleep is the equivalent of the 'nirguNa brahman' while Atman as reflected in the dreaming state has its equivalent in the 'saguNa brahman' and this is why there is a distinct 'person', the 'dreamer' or 'questioner' or 'Bhandasura' (as Atanu phrases it). In the waking state, Atman is reflected as 'jIvA', and the 'person' becomes the 'personality'.

    The case of a novelist comes to mind: To take a popular author I have read, J.K. Rowling in her sequel of the Harry Potter books has created a multitude of characters (personalities, in fact) ranging from the hero Harry Potter, his mentor Dumbledore to the archenemy Voldermat. In one sense, Rowling has 'dreamed up' the whole series of novels. The answer to the question 'Who does she actually represent in her own personality?' is the answer to the ability of the 'I' to create the world and characters of our dreams and participate in them along with a 'me'. There is one significant difference, however. The author of a novel is completely hidden and never directly lives in the created world (even in first person novels) unlike the 'author' of a dream, which is out and out centered around the dreaming personality.

    As to the dream world

    The consciousness of the 'jIvA' is focussed on its 'sUkSma sharIraM' (subtle body) in dreams and the action takes place on the astral plane, the 'bhuva loka' that interpenetrates our physical world and extends beyond it. Depending on the state of intensity and lucidity of the dream, the action takes place either as a projection or dramatization of 'vAsanAs' (impressions) stored in the 'chitta' (memory) or as an actual astral travel.

    Inputs by our sense instruments that relate to the physical world are colored by our emotions. Even thoughts of knowledge are colored by personal propensities and prejudices. In the interplay of good and evil our ego has the desire to express itself in all the shades of good and evil, but we are not able to play out our secret thoughts and desires in the physical world, mainly due to the 'image' we have created to our own self and to the world. These secret, innermost desires of every shade stored in our 'chitta' are projected and dramatized by the 'dreamer' in our dream world. This is perhaps the reason that our dreams are mostly illogical, incoherent and often weird, providing an outlet for our bad karmic seeds to sprout and wither themselves with little repercussions in the corresponding physical world. As an example, suppose a friend plays a practical joke on me and I hate him for his indiscretion. Being unable to express my reaction in the way I would like to in the physical world, I might harass, hurt or even slay the friend in my dream!

    When the dreams are clear, cogent and controlled, it might be that our 'jIvA' is travelling in the astral world of dreams. When we slip from the wakeful state to the dream state while sleeping, there is usually a break in consciousness, which also happens when we switch back to the waking from the dreaming state. This is the reason we are not able to remember our dreams in clear detail. By practice we can have a smooth transition in consciousness and thus have lucid dreams and remember them in detail when we switch back to the waking state. Once we remember our dreams more and more clearly and in detail, we can develop the ability to be actually aware and control what we dream about.

    As to the dream stuff: the matter of the dream world

    The 'saMsAra' or the 'World Process' is a manifestation of the Consciousness in Matter. What is true for the physical world is also true for the dream world, where the astral matter is far more subtle than the tiniest physical particle. The most wonderful feature of this matter is that its living essense readily shapes itself according to our thoughts and emotions. Just think about it and it is there as a shape, a living thought-form, in all its color and contour and feel! When we breathe out, we actually create shapes in the invisible air, which we can perhaps control by thought like the smoke rings blown out by an adept smoker. Yogis materialize stable physical things out of thin air! If gross matter can so lend itself to the power of thoughts, the plasticity of the far subtler astral matter can readily lend itself to the imagi-nations of thoughts.

    Methinks that a 'sAdhakA' with knowledge and practice can cultivate dreams into a pathway with milestones to the ultimate Self-Realization. For example, it is said that some spiritual masters use dreams as a way to impress their teachings. A seeker can watch his/her dreams, train himself/herself to be lucid (in consciousness) in them and explore the astral world where things are said to happen first before they actually manifest in the physical world.

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    Re: Dream

    Lucid Dreaming

    A number of Western phychic and clairvoyant researchers have intensively researched into the process and world of dreams and the related areas such as NDE (near death experiences), OBE (out of body experiences) and Remote Sensing.

    Here is an intersting 'Dream FAQ' about Lucid Dreaming, from the knowledge base of the Western research (from an article in the now defunct Website http://www.spiritweb.com):

    2. Lucid dreaming
    [Section by L.Levitan]

    2.1. What is lucid dreaming?

    A. The term "lucid dreaming" refers to dreaming while knowing that you are dreaming. The "lucid" part refers to the clarity of consciousness rather than the vividness of the dream. It generally happens when you realize during the course of a dream that you are dreaming, perhaps because something weird occurs. Most people who remember their dreams have experienced this at some time, often waking up immediately after the realization. However, it is possible to continue in the dream while remaining fully aware that you are dreaming.

    2.2. If you are lucid, can you control the dream?

    A. Usually lucidity brings with it some degree of control over the course of the dream. How much control is possible varies from dream to dream and from dreamer to dreamer. Practice can apparently contribute to the ability to exert control over dream events. At the least, lucid dreamers can choose how they wish to respond to the events of the dream. For example, you can decide to face up to a frightening dream figure, knowing it cannot harm you, rather than to try to avoid the danger as you naturally would if you did not know it was a dream. Even this amount of control can transform the dream experience from one in which you are the helpless victim of frequently terrifying, frustrating, or maddening experiences to one in which you can dismiss for a while the cares and concerns of waking life. On the other hand, some people are able to achieve a level of mastery in their lucid dreaming where they can create any world, live any fantasy, and experience anything they can imagine!

    2.3. Does lucid dreaming interfere with the function of "normal" dreaming?

    A. According to one way of thinking, lucid dreaming _is_ normal dreaming. The brain and body are in the same physiological state during lucid dreaming as they are in during most ordinary non- lucid dreaming, that is, REM sleep. Dreaming is a result of the brain being active, at the same time as the sense organs of the body are turned off to the outside world. In this condition, typically during REM sleep, the mind creates experiences out of currently active thoughts, concerns, memories and fantasies. Knowing you are dreaming simply allows you to direct the dream along constructive or positive lines, like you direct your thoughts when you are awake. Furthermore, lucid dreams can be even more informative about yourself than non-lucid dreams, because you can observe the development of the dream out of your feelings and tendencies, while being aware that you are dreaming and that the dream is coming from you. The notion that dreams are unconscious processes that should remain so is false. Your waking consciousness is always present in your dreams. If it were not, you would not be able to remember dreams, because you can only remember an event you have consciously experienced. The added "consciousness" of lucid dreaming is nothing more than the awareness of being in the dream state.

    2.4. Why would you want to have lucid dreams?

    A. The laws of physics and society are repealed in dreams. The only limits are the reaches of your imagination. Much of the potential of dreams is wasted because people do not recognize that they are dreaming. When we are not lucid in a dream, we think and behave as if we are in waking reality. This can lead to pointless frustration, confusion and wasted energy, and in the worst case, terrifying nightmares. It is useless to try as we do to accomplish the tasks of waking life in dreams. Our misguided efforts to do so result in anxiety dreams of malfunctioning machinery, missed deadlines, forgotten exams, losing the way, and so on. Anxiety dreams and nightmares can be overcome through lucid dreaming, because if you know you are dreaming you have nothing to fear. Dream images cannot hurt you. Lucid dreams, in addition to helping you lead your dreams in satisfying directions, enjoy fantastic adventures, and overcome nightmares, can be valuable tools for success in your waking life. Lucid dreamers can deliberately employ the natural creative potential of dreams for problem solving and artistic inspiration. Athletes, performers, or anyone who gives presentations can prepare, practice and polish their performances while they sleep. This is only a taste of the variety of ways people have used lucid dreaming to expand their lives.

    2.5. How do you have lucid dreams?

    A. There are several methods of inducing lucid dreams. The first step, regardless of method, is to develop your dream recall until you can remember at least one dream per night. Then, if you have a lucid dream you will remember it. You will also become very familiar with your dreams, making it easier learn to recognize them while they are happening. If you recall your dreams you can begin immediately with two simple techniques for stimulating lucid dreams. Lucid dreamers make a habit of "reality testing." This means investigating the environment to decide whether you are dreaming or awake. Ask yourself many times a day, "Could I be dreaming?" Then, test the stability of your current reality by reading some words, looking away and looking back while trying to will them to change. The instability of dreams is the easiest clue to use for distinguishing waking from dreaming. If the words change, you are dreaming. Taking naps is a way to greatly increase your chances of having lucid dreams. You have to sleep long enough in the nap to enter REM sleep. If you take the nap in the morning (after getting up earlier than usual), you are likely to enter REM sleep within a half-hour to an hour after you fall asleep. If you nap for 90 minutes to 2 hours you will have plenty of dreams and a higher probability of becoming lucid than in dreams you have during a normal night's sleep. Focus on your intention to recognize that you are dreaming as you fall asleep within the nap.

    External cues to help people attain lucidity in dreams have been the focus of Dr. Stephen LaBerge's research and the Lucidity Institute's development efforts for several years. Using the results of laboratory studies, they have designed a portable device, called the DreamLight, for this purpose. It monitors sleep and when it detects REM sleep gives a cue -- a flashing light -- that enters the dream to remind the dreamer to become lucid. The light comes from a soft mask worn during sleep that also contains the sensing apparatus for determining when the sleeper is in REM sleep. A small custom computer connected to the mask by a cord decides when the wearer is in REM and when to flash the lights.

    2.6. Is there a way to prevent yourself from awakening right after becoming lucid?

    A. At first, beginners may have difficulty remaining in the dream after they attain lucidity. This obstacle may prevent many people from realizing the value of lucid dreaming, because they have not experienced more than the flash of knowing they are dreaming, followed by immediate awakening. Two simple techniques can help you overcome this problem. The first is to remain calm in the dream. Becoming lucid is exciting, but expressing the excitement can awaken you. Suppress your feeling somewhat and turn your attention to the dream. If the dream shows signs of ending, such as the disappearance, loss of clarity or depth of the imagery, "spinning" can help bring the dream back. As soon as the dream starts to "fade," before you feel your real body in bed, spin your dream body like a top. That is, twirl around like a child trying to get dizzy (you probably will not get dizzy during dream spinning because your physical body is not spinning around). Remind yourself, "The next scene will be a dream." When you stop spinning, if it is not obvious that you are dreaming, do a reality test. Even if you think you are awake, you may be surprised to find that you are still dreaming!

    Some links to dream and human consciousness Western research:

    http://www.monroeinstitute.com/
    http://phoenix.akasha.de/~alfred/dreamindex.htm
    http://consciousdreaming.com/conscious-dreaming.swf
    http://www.consciousdreaming.com/luc...ming-links.htm
    http://members.tripod.com/cryskernan...d_dreaming.htm

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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    Methinks that a 'sAdhakA' with knowledge and practice can cultivate dreams into a pathway with milestones to the ultimate Self-Realization. For example, it is said that some spiritual masters use dreams as a way to impress their teachings. A seeker can watch his/her dreams, train himself/herself to be lucid (in consciousness) in them and explore the astral world where things are said to happen first before they actually manifest in the physical world.
    Namaste all,

    a very interesting post...thank you devotee for starting and contributing to it , and as always atanu and saidevo adds much value to round out the subject.

    It is my understanding that since this dream state is another state of consciousness, it too is a spring board to turiya. That was the notion of asking devotee if he ( assuming male, please correct me accordingly) can manage dream state. And as saidevo suggests the sadhaka may have an opportunity to exercise his/her sadhana during this time too.

    We also know that those that are grounded in turiya say during sleep, they watch themselves sleep, as they watch themselves dream too. So this level of Being, is ubiquitous as it underlies wake, dream and sleep.

    For me, it is just the fun part of the day. Intersting dreams occur for me, some times I can manage them mostly not. But why is that? As I see it , one is caught up in the activity of the dream itself. It seems that when you are a 3rd party to this action, you can direct the actors a bit better.

    There is a technique to help one gain the management of their dreams if there is that desire, and it's simple. While dreaming, just see if you can view your hands in the dream. Why so? it is directing ones attention that is the beginning of this management.

    ...just an idea.

    pranams
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 January 2008 at 12:00 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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