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    Dream

    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".

    A dream is like a drama in which several characters take part. Scientific explanation of dream is that the "story" & the "characters" in a dream are creation of mind taking impressions from our expreriences in real life in the past.

    Now, let's analyse this "dream" thing.

    All dreams are created by "me", within "me", wholly with the materials of "me" ( stimulants may be from outside but they are just stimulants, actual thing has to be created out of "me" only), therefore, the dream cannot be anything other than the "me". So whatever comes in the dream is
    just a part of "me"( or say, different manifestations of "me") .... that includes the story, the characters, their specific roles, dialogues etc. So, just one "me" manifests itself into "many" which apparently look completely different.

    Now, the greatest surprise is not this. Say, in a dream there are two characters ... one "me" & the other "my friend". The "me" in the dream gives a sense of real "me" in the dream too but not "my friend" in the dream. "My friend" in the dream acts as a separate individual on his own ... in fact, "he" sometimes does things which not expected by "me". How does he do like that ? If he is just a charater of a story written by my mind, his act should be known to "me" ... which is not the case.
    So, there must be an "I" in him too, apparently different from my "I", to be able to act in such an indendent manner. If my "I" is not making him "live" & a "separate entity" who/what does it ? Where does this seemingly independent "I" come from ? This must come from "me" as there is no
    one else !

    There is another surprise too. Though there is already an "I" in the dream, there is another who is watching the whole dream ... as if the "I" has got divided into two. Many a times, the "I" of the dream doesn't exactly behave as the "I" in reality.

    .... How can "I" play multiple roles & maintain separate individualities all at the same time. How is it logically explained ? The only logical explanation can be that what appears as "I" is capable of manifesting itself in multitude maintaining separate individualities in its different roles, all at
    the same time which we are unable to understand.

    Doesn't that gives an insight into the mystery behind this whole "creation" ?
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".

    .... How can "I" play multiple roles & maintain separate individualities all at the same time. How is it logically explained ? The only logical explanation can be that what appears as "I" is capable of manifesting itself in multitude maintaining separate individualities in its different roles, all at
    the same time which we are unable to understand.

    Doesn't that gives an insight into the mystery behind this whole "creation" ?
    Namaste Devotee,
    two different ideas here:
    • a most interesting post... do you have an opinion on this? While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?
    • While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there.
    pranams
    (nice to see you posting!)
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 January 2008 at 09:46 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Two different ideas here:
    • a most interesting post... do you have an opinion on this? While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?
    • While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there.
    Namaste yajvan,

    I hope you are well !

    "While in a dream have you had the ability to 'manage' it?" ====> If I remember correctly, that is what called "Lucid Dreaming" or "Concious Dreaming". The Tibetan Monks are supposed to have done extensive reasearch on this.

    I was able to manage my dreams sometimes , as I recall. There were some dreams in which things happened in such a manner which were not at all acceptable to me. So, in dream itself, the "I" took control over the things & changed the events to make them acceptable. You may laugh at this but this is what actually happened ! :lol:

    "While the mystery ( for me) of creation is solved just before the dream period. Between wake and dream, or dream and sleep. In that gap period turiya can be found. Found suggests lost, so let me say turiya shines through, or is more available. The foundation for all creation is grounded there."

    I think you are talking about the dreamless state. This is also called the "Pure state of being" ... as you name it the "Turiya" or the fourth state. I think what you say is right. Now, that gives me another insight. If "Turiya" shines in dreamless state, that also proves that Turiya gets covered only due to the waking state i.e. the state which differentiates & which shows this world. In the Turiya/Dreamless state, there is no differentiation & no world, yet there is conciousness & the continuity. So, with that it further follows that as the mind takes over, Turiya gets hidden. And as mind gets hidden in the pure state, does it prove that mind & Turiya are same things in different states ? i.e. essentially they are not different ? What do you say ?
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Devotee,

    Thank you for your post...

    Regarding your experience of managing your dream... very interesting.
    Another question - ever be in a dream and in that dream you are dreaming? I found this to be a unique experience. It also shows just how flexible the mind can be.

    It is suggested that this dream state some call svapna, is closer to samadhi. Swami Laksmanjoo says if in dream state compared to jagrat (or waking state) samadhi is much closer, easier to reach, from this state of consciousness. So , if are able to manage your dreams you may want to consider this opportunity.

    It is also interesting to note that some folks report that during their meditations while in waking state ( jagrat) and during the process of transcending, when that transcendence is not held in place, the subtleness of restful alertness, they slip into (or find themselves) in dream state. So goes the march of the mind.

    Re: Turiya - a most important matter. We had a most lively discussion on this back in August 2007. http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1822

    Lots of knowledge and POV's, let alone information from the Upanishads came out. A rewarding set of posts. If you get a chance take a look.

    This turiya is what makes all 'this' possible. It is the foundation for all states of consciousness, yet is behind them all.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Dream

    Namaste yajvan,

    A nice post & a very good link. Thanks !

    "Another question - ever be in a dream and in that dream you are dreaming? I found this to be a unique experience. It also shows just how flexible the mind can be."

    Dreaming in a dream ? I don't know. Yes, there have been dreams, where I found claiming (in the dream) that it is all dream .... but no-one around (in the dream) listened to me ! :lol:

    It is not that I can conciously manage my dreams. I managed it a few times when things were too unacceptable ! How it was done, is not known. Regarding taking that route you suggested, IMO, it needs a proper Guru & sufficient time which unfortunately I don't have.

    The link provided in your post was excellent. While reading Mandukya Upanishad, I had to read those verses & explanations again & again & had some idea of my own. Now, that got better by reading the discussion between you & Atanu. That discussion is really good. Thanks to both you & Atanu !!
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Analysing the dreams gives a strong insight into "how ONE becomes MANY".
    -
    Now, let's analyse this "dream" thing.

    ---There is another surprise too. Though there is already an "I" in the dream, there is another who is watching the whole dream ... as if the "I" has got divided into two. Many a times, the "I" of the dream doesn't exactly behave as the "I" in reality.
    Namaste Devotee,

    Excellent Vichara.

    There is a questioner here (as in every man questioning). As per me, the surprises are to the questioner. In most cases (may be 99.99%), the questioner assumes 'This is me, this body is me, dreams are arising in me and i am seeing the dreams.'

    The questioner is Bhandasura (fake demon) who is ignorant of the common truth of all three states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Most questioners cannot ask questions while in a dream (though you say that it is possible and you have exprienced it, which I believe) or in deep sleep (Nachiketa did it under much more difficult situation).

    This questioner is only active in waking state. When his control (ego thoughts) is loosened a bit and the fleshy vision is dimmed, the light bodies (which are always there) become evident. Then the dreaming man takes over yet he is the same Bhandasura but here he does not know the waking or deep sleep. This dreaming Bhandasura also loses control and then the darkness reigns. Yet the pleasant recharging in this dark state remains in memory and is reflected in the waking Bhandasura. In the deep sleep also a trace of this Bhandasura thinking 'I am sleeping' remains.

    It is the thinker, whose all thoughts relate to the false (bhanda) ego existence, who is the Bhandasura. It is said that absolute absence of thought can only reveal the true being who sports in all states and remains transcendental to the states. It is also said that through penetrating thoughts (such as you have presented), ego thoughts can come to halt.

    It is said that one has to apprehend the questioner first in order to apprehend the Seer.

    ---------------------

    A question which occured to me before (to which Yajvan ji made a reply) is of waking state. If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?

    Is it because that the body of a particular perceiver alone is satyam in the sense that it alone is the seat of particular cognition (created for fulfilling various needs etc) and other bodies are just attendants for fulfilling those particular needs but are not the seats of cognition?

    The questioner is rampant and fervent.

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    A question which occured to me before (to which Yajvan ji made a reply) is of waking state. If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?

    Is it because that the body of a particular perceiver alone is satyam in the sense that it alone is the seat of particular cognition (created for fulfilling various needs etc) and other bodies are just attendants for fulfilling those particular needs but are not the seats of cognition?
    Thank you, Atanu, for a lucid explanation.

    The "Bhandasura" concept helps understand this dilemma in an easier way. Actually, this "Bhandasura" which is born out of "I"-thought is itself fake & is capable of taking many forms. So, when we try to reach the root of the "I"-thought, Bhandasura disappears, because it was never there in reality !

    Let me try to solve your puzzle :

    "If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?"

    My explanation to this puzzle is :

    That is because the seamless oneness of the conciousness is at the Turiya state & not below that.

    In the example of the dream, the Bhandasura concept explains the two "I"s but it doesn't explain the "you", "he", "they" etc. (the other characters who (apparently) are "not-I") which are also there in the dream. I gave the example of "My-friend" in dream. Let's analyse this character a bit more deeply. When "my friend" in the dream gets hurt, the "I" in the dream or even "I" who is watching the dream doesn't feel the pain. Does it mean that "My friend" in the dream is someone else than "I" ? It can't be ... because in reality, there is no-one except me ! So, "My friend" is nothing but another manifestation of "me" only. So, in spite of the fact that "My friend" in the dream is nothing but "me" in a different role, neither "I" of the dream nor "I" who is watching feels the pain when "my friend" gets hurt in the dream.

    IMO, the above explains the answer to your question. The source of "I" of the dream, "I"-the watcher & "My friend in the dream" is the same & is capable of playing different roles at the same time with entirely different individuality ( to a level where when one is hurt, other doesn't feel the pain). As long as the individuality / duality remains, there is "my pain" or "other's pain". At the level of seamless oneness ( Turiya state) there is no "I", there is no "You", there is no "other" & also, there is no pain. I, you, he, she, it & they are all one but that oneness is not at the level we can feel pain or say "I", "my", "his" etc. It is at that level where all these words lose their meanings.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    -----
    Let me try to solve your puzzle :

    "If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?"

    My explanation to this puzzle is :

    That is because the seamless oneness of the conciousness is at the Turiya state & not below that.
    Namaste Devotee,

    Thank You very much for the questions and also for the explanations, which explain a lot of things. The above explanation however does not fully satisfy me for three reasons.

    First. Does it mean that the seamless consciousness of Turya is absent in 3 states? I do not think so. (else constant unchangeabilty of Turya is gone into thin air).

    Second. While explaining this phenomenon, in Brihadaraynaka, Yajnvalkya, explains: The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun.

    Third. Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya? (if so, then dvaita holds true).

    ---------------------
    I think that the query requires further deliberation. (what seems to be the body seems to be the altar of sacrifice to me).

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Dream

    Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,

    Very thoughtful inputs ! Thanks !!

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    The above explanation however does not fully satisfy me for three reasons.

    First. Does it mean that the seamless consciousness of Turya is absent in 3 states? I do not think so. (else constant unchangeabilty of Turya is gone into thin air).

    Second. While explaining this phenomenon, in Brihadaraynaka, Yajnvalkya, explains: The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun.

    Third. Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya? (if so, then dvaita holds true).

    ---------------------
    I think that the query requires further deliberation. (what seems to be the body seems to be the altar of sacrifice to me).

    Om
    That is a good point to ponder over.

    By seamless conciousness, I wanted to describe the state where there is no sense of duality. There is duality in all the three states below Turiya & therefore, the "Oneness" is not seamless.

    "The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun."

    That is correct. But when all are same, then how one is able to maintain its individuality separately, even in the presence of the other ? If I am pardoned for going back again & again to dream-analysis, how the "dream watcher", the one who poses as "I in the dream" & also the "others" (i.e. "not-I" in the dream) maintain their individualities all at the same time ? My explanation is that in all the three states, it is possible for One I to express itself as many & feel & perceive completely differently.

    "Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya?" ====> Will you please explain this question further ? I am not able to get what you want to indicate with this.

    -------------------------

    Let's us go from the other side to attack the dilemma. Let's assume that when there is One Atman in all beings, you & every being must experience pain if I get a pin-prick (in all states). Let's see :

    a) For the phenomenon of a pin-prick & pain, there must be differentiation between I, all, the pin, pin-prick & the pain. So, it can't be a state where all differentiation stops.

    b) Let's ask this question ? Who experiences the pain ? Will the pain be there if mind is not there (even if there is a pin-prick)? It can't be. The presence of mind is a must for the presence of pain. What I want to indicate is that the "differentiation" must exist for feeling of pain by either me or the other.

    c) Let's ask another question. Can one experience pain in Turiya state ? If pain exists, then that is not really a state where all differentiation stops ! There is still duality & so, it can't be Turiya.

    I don't know if the above satisfies you. I would like to hear what you, yajvan ji, saideo, Rl & others have to offer on this issue.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,

    Very thoughtful inputs ! Thanks !!
    That is a good point to ponder over.

    By seamless conciousness, I wanted to describe the state where there is no sense of duality. There is duality in all the three states below Turiya & therefore, the "Oneness" is not seamless.

    "The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun."

    That is correct. But when all are same, then how one is able to maintain its individuality separately, even in the presence of the other ? If I am pardoned for going back again & again to dream-analysis, how the "dream watcher", the one who poses as "I in the dream" & also the "others" (i.e. "not-I" in the dream) maintain their individualities all at the same time ? My explanation is that in all the three states, it is possible for One I to express itself as many & feel & perceive completely differently.

    "Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya?" ====> Will you please explain this question further ? I am not able to get what you want to indicate with this.
    Namaste Devotee,

    By asking whether there is a second 'conscious being' or not, I wished to indicate that the pin pricks are known by the Pragnya of Turya alone. Turya (and its Pragnya) being immortal, there will never be an occassion when the pin prick will not be cognised (though on recognising the body, pin, and all other on-lookers as transfiguration of Pragnya alone, the perspective of pain will drastically change. Then no pain will be external to the self). No-pain in Turya is not due to non-cognition but due to absolute lack of Adharma and Avidya.

    Attaining Turya does not mean losing Pragnya. If that was so, then one would attain Turya under chloroform. I emphasize that the perceiver is ONE. And when it is said that 'all are same' or 'Brahman is all' -- the primary meaning is that it is NOT TWO.

    The point I am trying to make is that the perceiver of the pain is the Purusha (Self) only, which is not the body. Body, gross or subtle, is a special object of the Self for enjoyment. So-called all others are also not-self. (This calls for a 'Net-Neti' or 'Who Am I?').

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 18 January 2008 at 02:26 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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