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Thread: Dream

  1. #11
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    Re: Dream

    My personal view is that the waking state is not like dream state, and they are truly unrelated. Infact, srI shankarAchArya has rejected the dream analogy in the interpretation of the sUtra 'vaidharmyAchcha na svapnAdivat.h'.

    From the point of ajAti vAda, there has never been any creation/destruction because paramArta satya is akAla where no events or changes happen. Therefore, creation/destruction exist in the paramArta only in the form of knowledge (like pages of a book) without 'timed' information. It is due to this mysterious mAyA that such 'vyavahAra knowledge' appears to be event driven phenomenon to us, and appears real. It is kAlA that tricks us into beleiving that creation and destruction really happen. If you reach to the stage of trikAla abhAdita satyatva, then the world (as it appears to the ajnAni) disappears and only Atma exists.

    The actual creation in vyavahAra dasha is not like a dream, but like ripples that appear in the ocean of sacchidAnanda - ripples of thought that create imaginary upAdhis that creates jIvas who feel bounded by these upAdhis. Though these upAdhis are imaginary, it is no joke to overcome them, and that is why shAstras have described elaborate ways starting from righteous living and devout worship to rigorous meditation to achieve enlightenment. Creation happens by mere wish of God - 'ichchAmAtram prabhosshRshTiriti' - the wish here is akin to God creating many imaginary concepts (like complex numbers) and weaving a big plot with all those imaginations...

    I dont personally think dreams and sleep can help with enlightenment. Meidtation is always done in the waking state, and if you happen to fall asleep and enter dream state during meditation, no benefit will come about. It is extremely important to retain the waking state ( this is why shAstras make the sitting posture or padmAsana mandatory for doing meditation as it is difficult to involuntarily sleep while sitting) during meditation. It is from the waking state that one can enter turIya after crossing the svarga loka (taijasa or the subtle world) and brahma loka( prAgnya or the causal world).

    When we sleep at night, we do enter the world of taijasa, but since we are not awake - we cannot control the dream and dream happens from previous vAsanas. If we can enter this taijasa world from the waking state through meditation, it becomes a world where dream experiences can be controlled by you - this is what that gives Yogis their great powers and siddhis. If we can enter the pragnya world through meditation by crossing the taijasa world - we get the ashTa mahA siddhis, as everything we wish for is instantly materialized in this causal plane. There is also vision of sarveshvara here. If we cross the pragnya world ( which will need burning away of significant karma vAsanas) we enter the turIya state that is beyond description. It is a tough ask...and will remain a mere theory for most sAdhakas for many births to come...

  2. #12
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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    -----
    Let me try to solve your puzzle :

    "If scriptures say that it is one Atman alone who is in waking, dreaming and sleeping states, then why this body of mine does not perceive a pin prick in another body?"

    My explanation to this puzzle is :

    That is because the seamless oneness of the conciousness is at the Turiya state & not below that.
    Namaste Devotee,

    Thank You very much for the questions and also for the explanations, which explain a lot of things. The above explanation however does not fully satisfy me for three reasons.

    First. Does it mean that the seamless consciousness of Turya is absent in 3 states? I do not think so. (else constant unchangeabilty of Turya is gone into thin air).

    Second. While explaining this phenomenon, in Brihadaraynaka, Yajnvalkya, explains: The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun.

    Third. Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya? (if so, then dvaita holds true).

    ---------------------
    I think that the query requires further deliberation. (what seems to be the body seems to be the altar of sacrifice to me).

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. Re: Dream

    There is an excellent book about dreams, written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, called Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. I read it this past summer and it was very good. You can read most of it here (if you don't want to purchase the book).

    Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep

  4. #14
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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    ----

    I dont personally think dreams and sleep can help with enlightenment. Meidtation is always done in the waking state, and if you happen to fall asleep and enter dream state during meditation, no benefit will come about. It is extremely important to retain the waking state ( this is why shAstras make the sitting posture or padmAsana mandatory for doing meditation as it is difficult to involuntarily sleep while sitting) during meditation. It is from the waking state that one can enter turIya after crossing the svarga loka (taijasa or the subtle world) and brahma loka( prAgnya or the causal world).

    ----
    Namaste and Regards,

    Regards for your clarity of understanding. It is incredible.

    Waking, dream, and deep sleep states are states of thought, while Turya is beyond the mind and thoughts return from it. Yet, as Upanishads state that it is with the help of mind alone the Self is attained.

    Turya has to be attained in waking state alone with 100% consciousness intact, in the full knowledge of what Pragnya Ghana (not parted by thoughts) means. Turya never slumbers. While all meditators know that crossing the boundary of intervening sleep is the most difficult thing to attain.

    (At the same time, RL, you have to give allowance for the fact that the state of a body may not reflect the true state of the being, to the onlooker. It is futile for an ignorant onlooker to try to assert the state of a Yogi by signs of the body.)


    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 17 January 2008 at 12:19 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #15
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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    My personal view is that the waking state is not like dream state, and they are truly unrelated. Infact, srI shankarAchArya has rejected the dream analogy in the interpretation of the sUtra 'vaidharmyAchcha na svapnAdivat.h'.

    The actual creation in vyavahAra dasha is not like a dream, but like ripples that appear in the ocean of sacchidAnanda - ripples of thought that create imaginary upAdhis that creates jIvas who feel bounded by these upAdhis. Though these upAdhis are imaginary, it is no joke to overcome them, and that is why shAstras have described elaborate ways starting from righteous living and devout worship to rigorous meditation to achieve enlightenment. Creation happens by mere wish of God - 'ichchAmAtram prabhosshRshTiriti' - the wish here is akin to God creating many imaginary concepts (like complex numbers) and weaving a big plot with all those imaginations...

    I dont personally think dreams and sleep can help with enlightenment. Meidtation is always done in the waking state, and if you happen to fall asleep and enter dream state during meditation, no benefit will come about. It is extremely important to retain the waking state ( this is why shAstras make the sitting posture or padmAsana mandatory for doing meditation as it is difficult to involuntarily sleep while sitting) during meditation. It is from the waking state that one can enter turIya after crossing the svarga loka (taijasa or the subtle world) and brahma loka( prAgnya or the causal world).

    When we sleep at night, we do enter the world of taijasa, but since we are not awake - we cannot control the dream and dream happens from previous vAsanas. If we can enter this taijasa world from the waking state through meditation, it becomes a world where dream experiences can be controlled by you - this is what that gives Yogis their great powers and siddhis. If we can enter the pragnya world through meditation by crossing the taijasa world - we get the ashTa mahA siddhis, as everything we wish for is instantly materialized in this causal plane. There is also vision of sarveshvara here. If we cross the pragnya world ( which will need burning away of significant karma vAsanas) we enter the turIya state that is beyond description. It is a tough ask...and will remain a mere theory for most sAdhakas for many births to come...
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,
    I like your notion
    actual creation in vyavahAra dasha is not like a dream, but like ripples that appear in the ocean of sacchidAnanda
    You also write,
    I dont personally think dreams and sleep can help with enlightenment. Meditation is always done in the waking state, and if you happen to fall asleep and enter dream state during meditation, no benefit will come about.
    I respect your opinion here, but allow me to offer another view for the reader to consider.

    If one takes the notion that a upaya is or can be a meditation, then meditation is not limited to the waking state, yet agree with you perhaps a lot easier to administer.

    In the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, dharanas are called nistaraṅga upadeśa or ~ 'undistracted instructions' - this is found in kArikA (verse or sloka) 139.
    Then if we look to one of the instructions śiva gives to pārvatī in the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, kArikA 75, it points to that state 'where sleep has not yet come, but wakefulness is over'. It is there He says, one can find para devī.

    This Vijnana Bhairava tantra calls out 112 upaya for the sadhu to consider. I found the one mentioned above most interesting.

    Thank you again for your well thought out post.

    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 January 2008 at 09:55 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste and Regards,

    Regards for your clarity of understanding. It is incredible.

    Waking, dream, and deep sleep states are states of thought, while Turya is beyond the mind and thoughts return from it. Yet, as Upanishads state that it is with the help of mind alone the Self is attained.

    Turya has to be attained in waking state alone with 100% consciousness intact, in the full knowledge of what Pragnya Ghana (not parted by thoughts) means. Turya never slumbers. While all meditators know that crossing the boundary of intervening sleep is the most difficult thing to attain.

    (At the same time, RL, you have to give allowance for the fact that the state of a body may not reflect the true state of the being, to the onlooker. It is futile for an ignorant onlooker to try to assert the state of a Yogi by signs of the body.)


    Om
    Namaste Atanuji,

    You have stated it better than I put it. Meditation inevitably induces sleep and it the one who conquers sleep who will go on to the stage of samAdhi.

    The external body has nothing to do with the awareness of the Yogi. The Yogi may physically live on earth with consciousness in any or all of taijasa or pragnya spheres, and some special Yogis ( like Ramana Maharishi or Swami Vivekananda) reach turIya too.( and pass beyond turIya too as turIya is also not the ultimate state)

    You have stated beautifully that it is in the full knowledge of what Pragnya Ghana (not parted by thoughts) that one attains turIya. Understanding the principles are necessary to make the most of meditation. You should know what to expect in the process of meditation and what stages are traversed, otherwise you can be decieved by hallucinations and 'false samAdhis'. Guru is very essential to supervise the sAdhaka for these reasons. All meditation should be done after doing pUja of Ishvara and dhyAna should always commence after getting his blessings.

    ~RL

  7. #17
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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    In the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, dharanas are called nistaraṅga upadeśa or ~ 'undistracted instructions' - this is found in karaka (verse or sloka) 139.
    Then if we look to one of the instructions śiva gives to pārvatī in the Vijnana Bhairava tantra, karaka 75, it points to that state 'where sleep has not yet come, but wakefulness is over'. It is there He says, one can find para devī.
    Is para dEvi supposed to turIya or sarveshvari? If it is turIya, then it is obvious that waking state consciousness is subsumed by the consciousness of turIya and must theoretically come to an end.

    When turIya is awake, all states are automatically awake.
    From the waking state you can traverse all states.
    From the dream state, no other state can be traversed.
    From the dreamless sleep also, no other state can be traversed.

    Both dream and dreamless sleep must be avoided as both these are states of total ignorance.

  8. #18
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    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    Is para dEvi supposed to turIya or sarveshvari? If it is turIya, then it is obvious that waking state consciousness is subsumed by the consciousness of turIya and must theoretically come to an end.

    When turIya is awake, all states are automatically awake.
    From the waking state you can traverse all states.
    From the dream state, no other state can be traversed.
    From the dreamless sleep also, no other state can be traversed.

    Both dream and dreamless sleep must be avoided as both these are states of total ignorance.
    Namaste and hello Rajalakshmi,

    As the sutra¹ reads, it is the gap between wake yet sleep has not started and many call this a 'gap'. It is though this gap the turiya can be experinced. I know you know this, yet these gaps can also be considered the consciousness-counterpart of sadhyā (junction , juncture) we talk about between day and night ( twilight) and night and day (dawn).

    If one wishes to know the defininion of para devī and avoid a debate, please consider sutra 17, where Bhairava Himself offers the definition of that state which is praised in the tantras.

    pranams,

    1. kArakA or कारिका - the concise statement in verse
    Last edited by yajvan; 17 January 2008 at 10:05 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    --
    When turIya is awake, all states are automatically awake.
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,

    Is Turya ever asleep? It can be known in momentary gaps (as Yajvan ji points out). Perhaps you wish to mean that 'when one is awake to Turya one is fully awake'?

    Regards

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  10. #20
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    Re: Dream

    Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,

    Very thoughtful inputs ! Thanks !!

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    The above explanation however does not fully satisfy me for three reasons.

    First. Does it mean that the seamless consciousness of Turya is absent in 3 states? I do not think so. (else constant unchangeabilty of Turya is gone into thin air).

    Second. While explaining this phenomenon, in Brihadaraynaka, Yajnvalkya, explains: The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun.

    Third. Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya? (if so, then dvaita holds true).

    ---------------------
    I think that the query requires further deliberation. (what seems to be the body seems to be the altar of sacrifice to me).

    Om
    That is a good point to ponder over.

    By seamless conciousness, I wanted to describe the state where there is no sense of duality. There is duality in all the three states below Turiya & therefore, the "Oneness" is not seamless.

    "The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun."

    That is correct. But when all are same, then how one is able to maintain its individuality separately, even in the presence of the other ? If I am pardoned for going back again & again to dream-analysis, how the "dream watcher", the one who poses as "I in the dream" & also the "others" (i.e. "not-I" in the dream) maintain their individualities all at the same time ? My explanation is that in all the three states, it is possible for One I to express itself as many & feel & perceive completely differently.

    "Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya?" ====> Will you please explain this question further ? I am not able to get what you want to indicate with this.

    -------------------------

    Let's us go from the other side to attack the dilemma. Let's assume that when there is One Atman in all beings, you & every being must experience pain if I get a pin-prick (in all states). Let's see :

    a) For the phenomenon of a pin-prick & pain, there must be differentiation between I, all, the pin, pin-prick & the pain. So, it can't be a state where all differentiation stops.

    b) Let's ask this question ? Who experiences the pain ? Will the pain be there if mind is not there (even if there is a pin-prick)? It can't be. The presence of mind is a must for the presence of pain. What I want to indicate is that the "differentiation" must exist for feeling of pain by either me or the other.

    c) Let's ask another question. Can one experience pain in Turiya state ? If pain exists, then that is not really a state where all differentiation stops ! There is still duality & so, it can't be Turiya.

    I don't know if the above satisfies you. I would like to hear what you, yajvan ji, saideo, Rl & others have to offer on this issue.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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