Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 71

Thread: Dream

  1. #21
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Age
    43
    Posts
    79
    Rep Power
    29

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~


    Namaste and hello Rajalakshmi,

    As the sutra reads, it is the gap between wake yet sleep has not started and many call this a 'gap'. It is though this gap the turiya can be experinced. I know you know this, yet these gaps can also be considered the consciousness-counterpart of sadhyā (junction , juncture) we talk about between day and night ( twilight) and night and day (dawn).

    If one wishes to know the defininion of para devī and avoid a debate, please consider sutra 17, where Bhairava Himself offers the definition of that state which is praised in the tantras.

    pranams,

    1. kArakA or कारिका - the concise statement in verse
    Namaste yajvanji,

    The 'gap' is technically called the granti or the knot( a doorway). The gap by itself cannot be used to experience turIya, but is one step leading to it. Only by crossing all the three grantis - turIya is experienced.

    The gap between the jAgrat and taijasa is Brahma granti - without 'breaking' this knot, it is not possible to enter taijasa. The gap between taijasa and prAgnya is vishNu granti. The gap between prAgnyA and turIya is called rudra granti.

    All these three gaps are also known as sandhyA. prAtaH sandhyA is Brahma granti ( dawn of wisdom), mAdhyAnika sandhyA(noon of wisdom) is Vishnu granti and sAyam sandhyA(dusk of wisdom) is rudra granti. All these are 'daylight' of Sabda Brahman.

    turIya is called the midnight of Sabda Brahman.

    But just entering into turIya state alone, one does not get liberation. In the high awareness of the turIya state, we must 'destroy' all seeds of vAsanas, without which samAdhi cannot be maintained perpetually. In the turIya samAdhi also there is disturbance of the indiryas brought about by vAsanas, so it takes a while to retain it permanently.

    ~RL

  2. #22
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    359

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,

    Very thoughtful inputs ! Thanks !!
    That is a good point to ponder over.

    By seamless conciousness, I wanted to describe the state where there is no sense of duality. There is duality in all the three states below Turiya & therefore, the "Oneness" is not seamless.

    "The being in the right eye (who is the same as being in the sun) roams in three states. So, it indicates the waking seer, dreamer, and sleeper as one full being spanning from this eye to the Sun."

    That is correct. But when all are same, then how one is able to maintain its individuality separately, even in the presence of the other ? If I am pardoned for going back again & again to dream-analysis, how the "dream watcher", the one who poses as "I in the dream" & also the "others" (i.e. "not-I" in the dream) maintain their individualities all at the same time ? My explanation is that in all the three states, it is possible for One I to express itself as many & feel & perceive completely differently.

    "Is there another conscious being second or third to Turya?" ====> Will you please explain this question further ? I am not able to get what you want to indicate with this.
    Namaste Devotee,

    By asking whether there is a second 'conscious being' or not, I wished to indicate that the pin pricks are known by the Pragnya of Turya alone. Turya (and its Pragnya) being immortal, there will never be an occassion when the pin prick will not be cognised (though on recognising the body, pin, and all other on-lookers as transfiguration of Pragnya alone, the perspective of pain will drastically change. Then no pain will be external to the self). No-pain in Turya is not due to non-cognition but due to absolute lack of Adharma and Avidya.

    Attaining Turya does not mean losing Pragnya. If that was so, then one would attain Turya under chloroform. I emphasize that the perceiver is ONE. And when it is said that 'all are same' or 'Brahman is all' -- the primary meaning is that it is NOT TWO.

    The point I am trying to make is that the perceiver of the pain is the Purusha (Self) only, which is not the body. Body, gross or subtle, is a special object of the Self for enjoyment. So-called all others are also not-self. (This calls for a 'Net-Neti' or 'Who Am I?').

    Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by atanu; 18 January 2008 at 02:26 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    359

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Atanu, yajvan, Saideo, RL & meez,
    --
    c) Let's ask another question. Can one experience pain in Turiya state ? If pain exists, then that is not really a state where all differentiation stops ! There is still duality & so, it can't be Turiya.
    Namaste Devotee,

    Let me put a counter question. How and why Lord comes as Guru and Avatara, if He is not aware of pain and suffering within His being?

    Om
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    359

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    Namaste Atanuji,
    -- The Yogi may physically live on earth with consciousness in any or all of taijasa or pragnya spheres, and some special Yogis ( like Ramana Maharishi or Swami Vivekananda) reach turIya too.( and pass beyond turIya too as turIya is also not the ultimate state)
    --
    ~RL
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,

    Thank you for your nice post.

    I request your attention to: "---as turIya is also not the ultimate state". I say that Turya is a state, when viewed as part of four states, but it is not a state, since it is THE SELF.

    Agreeing with you on most aspects, I yet wish to clarify a point (or obtain a clarification). Ramana Maharshi himself was ever very emphatic that Turya is the ultimate being -- the immortal Self which is Brahman. If we say that there is something beyond Turya it would amount to saying that there is something beyond Self, which no Upanishad indicates. If some being is superior to Atman, then is that being devoid of a Self? No, it is inconcievable. Nothing goes beyond the Self, since that beyond thing will be devoid of a Self.

    A distinction needs to be made (only for the purpose of understanding) between Turya the Self and the conscious subject, who after shedding avidya, remains in Turya alone. Such a Purusha, when well established in the Atman, is called Uttama Purusha (very well described in Chandogya Upanishad) who is in Turiyatita STATE. It is the Sahaja Samadhi state, wherein all desires and all objects of desire are in the Self of Uttama Purusha, who is All and ONE. Yet, Uttama Purusha is not beyond Akshara Brahman, since Uttama Purusha will say: One knows who knows me as unborn Mahesvara.

    Turya is ever unborn, neither Sat nor Asat, since it is not an object. Uttama Purusha exists with a volitional form (which exists for a time period) and describes himself as Sat and Asat. Uttama Purusha, who has stabilised in Turya, is in Sahaja Samadhi and for Him there will be no loss of awareness here, unlike a sage who is in Nirvikalpa samadhi. Uttama Purusha is unborn Turya, as life force He is sat but He is animating a Maya body (Asat) for a function.
    -----------------------

    This is my understanding of teaching of Ramana Maharshi, obtained under his grace. If defects are there it is mine and not Ramana's.

    Note: In this forum I have been, impelled by Shri Sarabhanga, using Turya for Self and Turiya for the experience of Turya, to overcome the confusion.

    Om
    Last edited by atanu; 18 January 2008 at 03:13 AM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Age
    43
    Posts
    79
    Rep Power
    29

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,

    Thank you for your nice post.

    I request your attention to: "---as turIya is also not the ultimate state". I say that Turya is a state, when viewed as part of four states, but it is not a state, since it is THE SELF.

    Agreeing with you on most aspects, I yet wish to clarify a point (or obtain a clarification). Ramana Maharshi himself was ever very emphatic that Turya is the ultimate being -- the immortal Self which is Brahman. If we say that there is something beyond Turya it would amount to saying that there is something beyond Self, which no Upanishad indicates. If some being is superior to Atman, then is that being devoid of a Self? No, it is inconcievable. Nothing goes beyond the Self, since that beyond thing will be devoid of a Self.

    A distinction needs to be made (only for the purpose of understanding) between Turya the Self and the conscious subject, who after shedding avidya, remains in Turya alone. Such a Purusha, when well established in the Atman, is called Uttama Purusha (very well described in Chandogya Upanishad) who is in Turiyatita STATE. It is the Sahaja Samadhi state, wherein all desires and all objects of desire are in the Self of Uttama Purusha, who is All and ONE. Yet, Uttama Purusha is not beyond Akshara Brahman, since Uttama Purusha will say: One knows who knows me as unborn Mahesvara.

    Turya is ever unborn, neither Sat nor Asat, since it is not an object. Uttama Purusha exists with a volitional form (which exists for a time period) and describes himself as Sat and Asat. Uttama Purusha, who has stabilised in Turya, is in Sahaja Samadhi and for Him there will be no loss of awareness here, unlike a sage who is in Nirvikalpa samadhi. Uttama Purusha is unborn Turya, as life force He is sat but He is animating a Maya body (Asat) for a function.
    -----------------------

    This is my understanding of teaching of Ramana Maharshi, obtained under his grace. If defects are there it is mine and not Ramana's.

    Note: In this forum I have been, impelled by Shri Sarabhanga, using Turya for Self and Turiya for the experience of Turya, to overcome the confusion.

    Om
    Although not a strict vedantic idea, many sages have indicated of the possibility of the turIyAtIta state, and this is why Brahman is called panchamukha in some traditions. In turIya, there is mind-space awareness as turIya is mentioned to be the sarvadr^ik, sAkshi, prabhu etc. turIyAtIta is attained in a mindless-space in Cosmic Consciousness. Here the Self or the one ceases to function since the mind-space transforms itself into mindless-space, that never manifests itself. In this state, there is no question of return to the oneself, since it becomes one with the source. One who goes to turIyAtIta no longer returns to talk of such a state, and hence there cannot even be a description of in the upanishads. This is the Absolute Non dualty without a trace of dualty involved in it. If this is what you mean by tUrya, then we are on the same page.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Age
    43
    Posts
    79
    Rep Power
    29

    Re: Dream

    When the Yogi says 'I am Brahman', or 'I am the witness' - this is turIya. When the "I am" alone is witnessed, it is beyond turIya. (awareness turning upon itself)

  7. #27
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    359

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    Although not a strict vedantic idea, many sages have indicated of the possibility of the turIyAtIta state, and this is why Brahman is called panchamukha in some traditions. In turIya, there is mind-space awareness as turIya is mentioned to be the sarvadr^ik, sAkshi, prabhu etc. --
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,

    The fifth is a Vedic knowledge and I can post the verses.

    But consider that you can do Agni Dharana by attaining Agni's form. Then you come back and live fearlessly, knowing that Agni will not burn you. Yet, this does make you greater than Agni.

    Turya is anadimat (beginningless) Self. You may attain it fully and then fearlessly enjoy the goodies of Brahmaloka (objects and women as Chandogya Upanishad says; women in Brahmloka being speech/poetry). That is Sahaja Samadhi and Turiyatita. Or of Uttama Purusha (as Chandogya describes). A Turiyatita sage does not exceed Turya, which is anadimat Self.

    Another example may make it more clear. We, the ignorant ones, go to Shushpti and sleep while a knower of the fourth (Atman) can enjoy the Pragnya Ghana in any fashion -- fearlessly. That is Brahmaloka.

    Turya is unchangeable and infinite without any boundaries as it has no internal or external world. Mandukya certainly does not indicate in any fashion that the fourth has mind space awareness. In fact, Mandukya says:

    7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.

    It has neither internal awareness nor external awareness. It is not unconsciousness also. By sheer inevitable inference it can be held to be the real Prabhu/Drasta as Turya is the Reality of Reality (reality being Life force). Similarly one abiding in Turya can definitely not say "I am Brahman". Such a person has no inner and outer sense, how can he say I? One can say so, on coming down after knowing the truth.

    Regards,

    Om

    Nothing surpasses the Self. If any one were to surpass Self, then that person would be devoid of a self.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    September 2006
    Age
    66
    Posts
    7,705
    Rep Power
    186

    Re: Dream

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Rajalakshmi wrote
    Namaste yajvanji,

    The 'gap' is technically called the granti or the knot( a doorway). The gap by itself cannot be used to experience turIya, but is one step leading to it. Only by crossing all the three grantis - turIya is experienced.

    The gap between the jAgrat and taijasa is Brahma granti - without 'breaking' this knot, it is not possible to enter taijasa. The gap between taijasa and prAgnya is vishNu granti. The gap between prAgnyA and turIya is called rudra granti.

    All these three gaps are also known as sandhyA. prAtaH sandhyA is Brahma granti ( dawn of wisdom), mAdhyAnika sandhyA(noon of wisdom) is Vishnu granti and sAyam sandhyA(dusk of wisdom) is rudra granti. All these are 'daylight' of Sabda Brahman.

    turIya is called the midnight of Sabda Brahman.

    But just entering into turIya state alone, one does not get liberation. In the high awareness of the turIya state, we must 'destroy' all seeds of vAsanas, without which samAdhi cannot be maintained perpetually. In the turIya samAdhi also there is disturbance of the indiryas brought about by vAsanas, so it takes a while to retain it permanently.

    ~RL
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,
    A very good point indeed.... yes we have talked often here on saṁdhyā , their timings of the day ( this is in the Meditation & Jyotish folders if there is interest) and how one can use these timings as beneficial to meditation.

    I also agree with you that
    But just entering into turIya state alone, one does not get liberation
    The benefit of this, of experiencing this gap this granti ( some write granthi) is to culture the mind that there is something other then wake-dream-sleep. It is an ahhhh-ha! for the mind.

    I also agree with your assessment
    we must 'destroy' all seeds of vAsanas, without which samAdhi cannot be maintained perpetually. In the turIya samAdhi also there is disturbance of the indiryas brought about by vAsanas, so it takes a while to retain it permanently
    Yes, and knowledge is the greatest purifier... pure knowledge ( pure consciousness) is the purest purifier. I find this to be the best 'breaker' or flushing mechanism of these vasanas.

    I agree these knots must be broken... this wisdom is not my epiphany, but of the Chandogya Upanishad ( I offer this for the reader as I assume you are well acquainted with these slokas ).
    Chapter 7 holds the conversation between Narada and rsi Sanatkumara's teaching. Sanatkumaraji offers bhuma vidya.

    When this bhuma becomes firm and constant then the knots are broken ,sarva-granthīnām vipramokṣha. Yet the knot in the heart, this hdayagranthi, is broken by the the perception of the Supreme, tasmin dṣhṭe parātpare.

    But who is there to help? Who is there to assist to break this final knot?
    bhagvan sanatkumara the Upanishad says, also known as skanda.

    This is the blessing found in this Upanishad.

    pranams,
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #29
    Join Date
    January 2008
    Age
    43
    Posts
    79
    Rep Power
    29

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by atanu View Post
    Namaste Rajalakshmi,

    The fifth is a Vedic knowledge and I can post the verses.

    But consider that you can do Agni Dharana by attaining Agni's form. Then you come back and live fearlessly, knowing that Agni will not burn you. Yet, this does make you greater than Agni.

    Turya is anadimat (beginningless) Self. You may attain it fully and then fearlessly enjoy the goodies of Brahmaloka (objects and women as Chandogya Upanishad says; women in Brahmloka being speech/poetry). That is Sahaja Samadhi and Turiyatita. Or of Uttama Purusha (as Chandogya describes). A Turiyatita sage does not exceed Turya, which is anadimat Self.

    Another example may make it more clear. We, the ignorant ones, go to Shushpti and sleep while a knower of the fourth (Atman) can enjoy the Pragnya Ghana in any fashion -- fearlessly. That is Brahmaloka.

    Turya is unchangeable and infinite without any boundaries as it has no internal or external world. Mandukya certainly does not indicate in any fashion that the fourth has mind space awareness. In fact, Mandukya says:

    7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.

    It has neither internal awareness nor external awareness. It is not unconsciousness also. By sheer inevitable inference it can be held to be the real Prabhu/Drasta as Turya is the Reality of Reality (reality being Life force). Similarly one abiding in Turya can definitely not say "I am Brahman". Such a person has no inner and outer sense, how can he say I? One can say so, on coming down after knowing the truth.

    Regards,

    Om

    Nothing surpasses the Self. If any one were to surpass Self, then that person would be devoid of a self.
    Namaste Atanu,

    So what do you think was the stage of sage vAmadeva when he says

    'taddhaitatpashyannR^ishhirvAmadevaH pratipede.ahaM manurabhava{\m+} sUryashcheti | tadidamapyetarhi ya evaM vedAhaM brahmAsmIti iti
    sa ida{\m+} sarvaM bhavati'

    Translation:

    The seer Vamadeva, having realized this self as That, came to know: "I was Manu and the sun." And to this day, whoever in a like manner knows the self as "I am Brahman," becomes all this universe.

    How is possible to know this without mind-space awareness? Note that by mind, I am not referring to the manas, but to the 'super mind' also known as pragnya.

    Your view regarding enjoying Brahmaloka after attaining turya is actually not agreed upon by Shankara advaita because vedanta sUtras explicitly reject jagat vyApAraM for a liberated soul, which means no one who has once been a jIva and latter attained self realization, never actually becomes an uttama purusha like Krishna.

    It should also be noted that even those who go to Brahmaloka get AnandasAmyaM with Brahman, and may choose to be devotees of sarveshvara without ever attaining complete identity- a doctrine that is taught by many shools of vedanta. ( 'bhogamAtrasAmyaliN^gAchcha')


    ~RL

  10. #30
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,193
    Rep Power
    359

    Re: Dream

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajalakshmi View Post
    Namaste Atanu,

    So what do you think was the stage of sage vAmadeva when he says
    --
    Translation:

    The seer Vamadeva, having realized this self as That, came to know: "I was Manu and the sun." And to this day, whoever in a like manner knows the self as "I am Brahman," becomes all this universe.

    How is possible to know this without mind-space awareness? Note that by mind, I am not referring to the manas, but to the 'super mind' also known as pragnya.
    Namaste Rajalaksmi,

    How do you know that you slept well, though in deep sleep you knew nothing? The verse above contains the answer. It says "having realized----". When Vamadeva is speaking, He is using Mind, Aham (I), and speech. These are the first three kids of Brahman. Knower of Turya obviously knows that this kid called 'Aham' is this world.


    Your view regarding enjoying Brahmaloka after attaining turya is actually not agreed upon by Shankara advaita because vedanta sUtras explicitly reject jagat vyApAraM for a liberated soul,
    Surely. I said enjoyment of objects and women of Brahmaloka. I did not mention Jagat. Chandogya says that the physical body originating from womb of earthly mother is not known to Uttama Purusha.

    which means no one who has once been a jIva and latter attained self realization, never actually becomes an uttama purusha like Krishna.
    Agreed. Who can ever become another Lord Krishna? But Uttama Purusha one can become and that is as per Chandogya Upanishad.

    It should also be noted that even those who go to Brahmaloka get AnandasAmyaM with Brahman, and may choose to be devotees of sarveshvara without ever attaining complete identity- a doctrine that is taught by many shools of vedanta. ( 'bhogamAtrasAmyaliN^gAchcha')
    Yes. I agree to this, with a slight difference. One who has attained Brahmaloka, I think, has realised that it is the will of Lord that matters.

    Regards,

    Om

    I remind:
    7. The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •