Regarding recent discussions...

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste Atanu-ji,

I do not know where from you are coming and where you are going. I suggest that you note down your key understandings of one theory (or at
least your theory) in a separate thread and then we can compare notes.

I dont wish that we miss an opportunity to discuss this just because of difference of opinions. Let us be open and not miss a discussion in
fear of contfronting each other views. You are all very knowledgeable guys and know what you are saying. I am an active debator on some
forums with dvaitins, dvaitAdvaitins and even other advaitins and I know how many different POV exist - each person is a philosophy.

You have somehow assumed that there is exactly one version of Advaita and seem to accuse me straying from the principles of Advaita. Let me
tell you that there are atleast these variants of advaita:

advaita-K ( kEvalAdvaita of Sri shankara )
advaita-G ( advaita of Sri GowDapAda ),
advaita-A ( from AnandaGiri )
advaita-M ( from MS - advaita siddhi ),
advaita-Nn ( from neo-vedAntins ),
advaita-PV ( from PadmapAda , prakAshAtman of the vivaraNa school ),
advaita-SN ( from SurEshwara naishkarmya-siddhi ),
advaita-VB ( from vAcaspati Mishra of the bhAmatI school ),
advaita-VI ( from vimuktAtman of the IshTasiddhi school ),
advaita-GB ( from gangApuri bhaTTAraka ),
advaita-AD ( appayya-dIkshita)
advaita-P ( prakAshAnanda ),
advaita-KS ( kAshmIraka sadAnanda )

In addition to these there are
advaita-V ( from Vivekananda)
advaita-Y ( Yogananda school)
advaita-R (Ramana) and more...

Adding to the confusion, we have
advaita-RL ( from Rajalakshmi)
advaita-AT ( Atanu's )
advaita - SH (Sharabhanga) etc

You might think that the differences between the variants is superficial, but unfortunately no.

I found to my great surprise that there is a variant of Shankaran advaita that denies jagat mithyatava.
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that denies the very concept of jIvanmukta, and claims that no jIva has ever been liberated yet!(advaita-P)
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that called Lord Krishna to be in avidyA mode.

So, we need to clarify many things before we call ourselves advaitins. This is advaita, this is not advaita - does not cut it.

In addition to the above factors, advaitins like me also do not accept veda apourusheyatva as taught by the tradition, and I beleive that there can be new revelations now and in future. Most traditional advaitins deny the authenticity of all upanishads except the principal sixteen, while many of us accept the muktika canon. Most the material written on this forum( like cakra, samAdhi etc) would be rejected by the classical advaitin, In that respect, this is a great forum that allows great variety in thought - where every idea is not opposed and rejected just because it is not there in the principal upanishads.

Waking deep sleep is Turya and not Prajna. And I do not know where from you derive that Visvarupa is Sarvesvara, as spoken of in Mandukya.
Yet you are not comprehending "NOT-TWO", that there is no other.Prajna state is ghana, which is revealed pure intelligence. There is no
Visva in it yet. Visva and beings are after the pure intelligence and not before it. There is no part in it, though it is the source of all
and it is the dissolution of all.

There are four states of 'enlightened consciousness'.( or supra awareness)

shAnta jAgrat - is also called restful wakefulness or peaceful wakefulness.
jAgrat-svapna - lucid dreaming or wakeful dreaming
jAgrat-shushupti - wakeful deepsleep
turya - Absolute non dualty.

The state of each of these have been furnished in the mANDUkya. shAnta jAgrat is the super awareness of gross nature. At its limit, it can confer on you complete knowledge of the entire physical universe called bhU loka, bhuvar loka and part of suvar loka. jAgrat-svapna is the super awareness of subtle nature, i.e the world of mind and subtle element, also known as manomaya kosha. This covers suvarloka, maharloka and janarloka. jagrat-shushupti is the super awareness of the causal( and super casual nature) , i.e vijnAnamaya kosha and Anandamaya kosha. This covers taparloka, satyaloka, and other lokas of Ishvara all up to param padaM of vishNu. turya is the indescribable Absolute. VishvarUpa darshana has been refererred to as:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs rarely get to see this form of Ishvara.

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- the higher AjJa cakra.
There is considerable dualty in the experience as anyone reading this adhyAya will find, but vishvarUpa cannot be described because it is the infinite form of Ishvara with all his infinitely manifested opulences. With all the above reasoning, we can safely conclude that vishvarUpa is the highest possible experience of mAyA. It is certainly dualistic because mAyA is characterised by dualty. Therefore, this experience is that of jAgrat-shushupti only.

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision? Also note this:

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara, and cannot be anything short of the full glory of Ishvara. Yoga vAsishTa classies Arjuna as a jIvanmukta at the asaMsakti level. Bhagavata also mentions Arjuna to be a jnAni. What vishvarUpa darshana implies is that, Arjuna has infact realized 'almost' the Self at this point, amidst the dualty - temporarily. And withdrawn due to his vAsanas. It is not turya because there is knower-known distinction in that vision. So it is a dvaitAdvaita experience of the Self( not the highest possible which is possible only in identity).

----------------------
Mandukya says the following.
Where the sleeper desires not a thing of enjoyment and sees not any dream, that state is deep sleep. (The Self) seated in the state of deep
sleep and called Prajna, in whom everything is unified, who is dense with consciousness, who is full of bliss, who is certainly the enjoyer
of bliss, and who is the door to the knowledge (of the preceding two states), is the third quarter.
This is the Lord of all; this is omniscient; this is the in-dwelling controller (of all); this is the source and indeed the origin and
dissolution of all beings.
Karikas say the following

I-12. Prajna knows neither himself nor others, neither truth nor untruth. But that Turiya is ever the all seer.
I-13. The non-cognition of duality is common to both Prajna and Turiya. Prajna is possessed of sleep of the nature of cause, whereas that
sleep does not exist in Turiya.
-------------------------

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu-ji,

I dont wish that we miss an opportunity to discuss this just because of difference of opinions. Let us be open and not miss a discussion in
fear of contfronting each other views. You are all very knowledgeable guys and know what you are saying. I am an active debator on some
forums with dvaitins, dvaitAdvaitins and even other advaitins and I know how many different POV exist - each person is a philosophy.

You have somehow assumed that there is exactly one version of Advaita and seem to accuse me straying from the principles of Advaita. Let me
tell you that there are atleast these variants of advaita:

advaita-K ( kEvalAdvaita of Sri shankara )
advaita-G ( advaita of Sri GowDapAda ),
advaita-A ( from AnandaGiri )
advaita-M ( from MS - advaita siddhi ),
advaita-Nn ( from neo-vedAntins ),
advaita-PV ( from PadmapAda , prakAshAtman of the vivaraNa school ),
advaita-SN ( from SurEshwara naishkarmya-siddhi ),
advaita-VB ( from vAcaspati Mishra of the bhAmatI school ),
advaita-VI ( from vimuktAtman of the IshTasiddhi school ),
advaita-GB ( from gangApuri bhaTTAraka ),
advaita-AD ( appayya-dIkshita)
advaita-P ( prakAshAnanda ),
advaita-KS ( kAshmIraka sadAnanda )

In addition to these there are
advaita-V ( from Vivekananda)
advaita-Y ( Yogananda school)
advaita-R (Ramana) and more...

Adding to the confusion, we have
advaita-RL ( from Rajalakshmi)
advaita-AT ( Atanu's )
advaita - SH (Sharabhanga) etc

You might think that the differences between the variants is superficial, but unfortunately no.

I found to my great surprise that there is a variant of Shankaran advaita that denies jagat mithyatava.
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that denies the very concept of jIvanmukta, and claims that no jIva has ever been liberated yet!(advaita-P)
I found to my great surprise that there is a variant that called Lord Krishna to be in avidyA mode.

So, we need to clarify many things before we call ourselves advaitins. This is advaita, this is not advaita - does not cut it.

In addition to the above factors, advaitins like me also do not accept veda apourusheyatva as taught by the tradition, and I beleive that there can be new revelations now and in future. Most traditional advaitins deny the authenticity of all upanishads except the principal sixteen, while many of us accept the muktika canon. Most the material written on this forum( like cakra, samAdhi etc) would be rejected by the classical advaitin, In that respect, this is a great forum that allows great variety in thought - where every idea is not opposed and rejected just because it is not there in the principal upanishads.

There are four states of 'enlightened consciousness'.( or supra awareness)

shAnta jAgrat - is also called restful wakefulness or peaceful wakefulness.
jAgrat-svapna - lucid dreaming or wakeful dreaming
jAgrat-shushupti - wakeful deepsleep
turya - Absolute non dualty.

The state of each of these have been furnished in the mANDUkya. shAnta jAgrat is the super awareness of gross nature. At its limit, it can confer on you complete knowledge of the entire physical universe called bhU loka, bhuvar loka and part of suvar loka. jAgrat-svapna is the super awareness of subtle nature, i.e the world of mind and subtle element, also known as manomaya kosha. This covers suvarloka, maharloka and janarloka. jagrat-shushupti is the super awareness of the causal( and super casual nature) , i.e vijnAnamaya kosha and Anandamaya kosha. This covers taparloka, satyaloka, and other lokas of Ishvara all up to param padaM of vishNu. turya is the indescribable Absolute. VishvarUpa darshana has been refererred to as:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs rarely get to see this form of Ishvara.

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- the higher AjJa cakra.
There is considerable dualty in the experience as anyone reading this adhyAya will find, but vishvarUpa cannot be described because it is the infinite form of Ishvara with all his infinitely manifested opulences. With all the above reasoning, we can safely conclude that vishvarUpa is the highest possible experience of mAyA. It is certainly dualistic because mAyA is characterised by dualty. Therefore, this experience is that of jAgrat-shushupti only.

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision? Also note this:

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara, and cannot be anything short of the full glory of Ishvara. Yoga vAsishTa classies Arjuna as a jIvanmukta at the asaMsakti level. Bhagavata also mentions Arjuna to be a jnAni. What vishvarUpa darshana implies is that, Arjuna has infact realized 'almost' the Self at this point, amidst the dualty - temporarily. And withdrawn due to his vAsanas. It is not turya because there is knower-known distinction in that vision. So it is a dvaitAdvaita experience of the Self( not the highest possible which is possible only in identity).

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

I have quoted your post in full because every point in it is good.

Answer to your questions are included in your post itself. When you say that there are many variants of Advaita itself, you are correct since there are many perceptions, which can be categorised into many groups.

But here is my point. Agni is one, but a person who knows Agni Dharana will say Agni is cool. I will say Agni is terrible. Some other may further distinguish Agni as cool under some circumstance and terrible under other conditions. And then infinite descriptions of Agni that is ONE will emerge. Many will fight over those descriptions.

Descriptions are inherently dualistic as they involve marriage of mind and speech. Before marriage, however, they have to be created as two.

I do not think that Prajnaghana as mentioned in Mandukya is vague at all. It is non-dual intelligence -- a pada of Self, the BEING who is the owner and revealer of this pure intelligence. Self knows itself through this intelligence but this pure intelligence will not know anything if the BEING goes absent. The being is INDHA (the fuel). Similarly, the jiva (apparently one among many) will not know oneself and others if Self with its prajnaghana goes missing.

But Prajnaghana may be percieved in many ways and these perceptions do no remain ghana any more, since perception involves parting of pure prajna by thoughts.

Thus I request you to follow just one variant of philosophy as per your Guru's dictate and get established in that. The Advaita not only includes all variants of Advaita but also VA and Dvaita, since the truest Advaita is "Not Two".

Mandukya is the greatest scientific paper written ever. And it will continue to be so, till Indha is there. You are young and I admire your wisdom. My request is to first eat/drink/chew/digest Mandukya and Gaudapada Karika. Or if you have a Guru, just follow what he teaches.

I emphasize that all categories of Prajna that you talk about are the perceptions of different jivas of ONE PADA of ONE SELF. Whatever the perception of a Jnani, the Prajna -- as Pada of the great Self remains Prajna only. I hope you comprehend this point. What is invariant principle, we color with our thoughts and then claim that only the 'concept of Prajna' is correct and miss the whole point about the 'invariant Prajna'. Similarly with the Self itself. Like a person having a title of DGM, on being promoted, says "I am not DGM, I am GM".
Regards.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sarabhanga]

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

advaita vedAnta depends on the mANDukyopaniSad and the kArikAs of gauDapAda. And the advaitavAda of shaÑkarAcArya does not disagree with the foundation laid by shrI gauDapAda. And ALL subsequent advaitavAda is a footnote to these authorities. There are many variations in the details of explanation, but the mANDUkya wisdom cannot be violated.

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu-ji,

mANDUkya is very difficult to understand. Two perspective are implied for evey state - both from the individual and the cosmic perspective. The cosmic perspective can be experienced by us only in samAdhi. prAjna is a very deceptive term as rightly pointed out by Sri Sarabhanga. It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

~RL

Dear RL,

Not only from two perspectives of individual and cosmic, but from the individual perspective alone there will be unlimited perceptions of prajnaghana.

But these perceptions will not be ghana anymore and these perceptions will not change the prajnaghana -- which remains same ever as the tool of the Self who has the perceptions.

What I am telling is also not ghana. When you become one with AUM, then and then only, through AUM, you can pass through all stages in waking itself.

It has many connotations and unless one knows all the implications of this word, mANDUkya's import will be lost.

What I say now is what my Guru says, so I will not enter into any discussion on this point. (Just go through it as a Guru's teaching and there is no need to agree or disagree). The teaching is: "There is no end to connotations. There will be as many connotations as many beings there are multiplied by as many moments they think. It is simply not possible to understand all connotations and it is not required. The only thing that is required is to know the one who has the connotations."

The being is beneath the thoughts. Simply put: Know thyself.

Om

[atanu]

Namaste Atanu-ji,

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara. divya chakshuH is nothing but the third eye of Rudra- .

~RL

Namaste RL,

I feel that a discussion should concentrate on one subject at a time. However, in case, you bring up this subject in your future discussions, you may wish to consider these two points:

First, Lord said "Arjuna see these --- and see whatever else you wish to see in me"

Second, Arjuna was afraid of the vision.

Vision of third eye of Rudra is Advaita vision which kills lust and fear.

Om

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste RL,

I feel that a discussion should concentrate on one subject at a time. However, in case, you bring up this subject in your future discussions, you may wish to consider these two points:

First, Lord said "Arjuna see these --- and see whatever else you wish to see in me"

Second, Arjuna was afraid of the vision.

Vision of third eye of Rudra is Advaita vision which kills lust and fear.

Om

Arjuna getting afraid is actually reverance to the Lord - bhaya bhakti, god fearing. When such a vision is granted for the first time, the devotee is overwhelmed with awe, he looses his own identity momentarily before being pulled out.

vishvarUpa is called avyaya rUpa or the complete form.

Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.


Quoted from Sri Ramana:


Viswarupa darshan (vision of the cosmic form) and

Viswatma darhsan (vision of the universal self) are the same.

Such darshan is not by eyesight or in any gross fashion. As
there is only Being, without a second, anything seen cannot

be real. That is the truth.


--Gems from bhagavAn

Ineffect, Arjuna became the seer momentarily and did not see any darshan externally.

See Bhagavata verse:

saubhary-utanka-shibi-devala-pippalAda-
sArasvatoddhava-parAshara-bhUrisenAH
ye.nye vibhIshaNa-hanUmad-upendradatta-
pArthArshTrisena-vidura-shrutadeva-varyAH ( 2.7.45)

includes pArthaH( arjuna) as a jnAni on the class of hanumAn.

~RL

[atanu]

vishvarUpa is called avyaya rUpa or the complete form.
Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.
Quoted from Sri Ramana:
Viswarupa darshan (vision of the cosmic form) and
Viswatma darhsan (vision of the universal self) are the same.

Namaste Rl,

You mean to say that a Christian who has a vision of the truth will see BrahmA, Vishnu, Rudra within? Or whether or not such a seer may see as per his/her orientation?

I do not deny that vision of Kala-Death form of Lord is without bhakti; yet it is not the ultimate. It is the Agni-Vaisvanara vision. Vision of Samaan that lights up everything including the Sun, is the final one.

Can you give the full text and full context of what Shri Ramana said? You are distorting Ramana and that is not acceptable. Ramana has pointed out that Shri Krishna said: "Arjuna see these --- and also see what you wish to see". Ramana emphasized that any vision is of the nature of experience and is controlled by predilection of the visionary. Yet the Seer having the vision is constant and Samaan.

True that visvarupa darshan is the ultimate knowledge when one knows "I am the seer and the seen".


When one sees any difference here one goes from death to death.
------------------------

We may agree to disagree here because this will be futile, until you comprehend the Samaan. Ultimately, the Seer is to be known and not the seen. Darshan of Agni-Vaisvanaro is one step. Yes you are speaking of darshan of Ishwara as Death and I am talking of Ishwara as one who bestows immoratlity.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya

[atanu]

Vedas teach: Truth and only Truth.

The Nellore Professor asked about visvarupa darsana.

M.: Visvatma darsana is visvarupa darsana i.e., the universal Self of the cosmic Self is the cosmos. Sri Krishna started the discourse in Chapter II, saying, “I have no form”. In Chapter XI, He says, “See my form as the Universe”. Is it consistent? Again he says, “I transcend the three worlds”, but Arjuna sees the three worlds in Him. Sri Krishna says, “I cannot be seen by men, Gods, etc.”; yet Arjuna sees himself and the Gods in Him. No one could see and yet Arjuna was endowed with divine sight to see Him. Does it not look a maze of contradictions?

The answer is that the understanding is wrong. Sthula dristi on the physical plane is absurd. Jnana dristi (subtle understanding) is necessary. That is why Arjuna was given divya chakshuh (divine sight). Can such sight be gross? Will such interpretation lead you to a right understanding?

Sri Krishna says Kalosmi, ‘I am Time’. Does Time have shape? Again if the universe be His form should it not be one and unchanging? Why does He say to Arjuna, “See in me whatever you desire to see?” That means that His form is according to the desires of the seer. They speak of ‘divine sight’ and yet paint the scene, each according to his own view. There is the seer also in the seen. What is all this? Even a mesmerist can make you see strange scenes. You call this a trick, whereas the other you call divine. Why this difference? Anything seen cannot be real. That is the truth.


M.: People have read of Vivekananda having asked Sri Ramakrishna, “Have you seen God?” and imitate him now. They also ask, “Have you realised God?”

I ask what is realization? Realisation implies perfection. When you are limited, your perception also is limited. Your knowledge is thus imperfect. Of what value is that imperfect knowledge?
In Visvarupa Darsan, Arjuna is told to see whatever he desired and not what was presented before him. How can that darsan be real?
-------------------------------

I request that before chewing/eating/digesting Mandukya no attempt should be made to correlate and equate an Experience with the Experiencer.

Visvatma darsana is visvarupa darsana . The Atman that is in Visva is Atman, that must be known stripped of the Visva, which is Atman's fire and light. Then automatically one will know visvaatma, taijjassaatma, Prajnaatma.


Regards

Om

Om is the truth

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste Rl,

You mean to say that a Christian who has a vision of the truth will see BrahmA, Vishnu, Rudra within? Or whether or not such a seer may see as per his/her orientation?

I do not deny that vision of Kala-Death form of Lord is without bhakti; yet it is not the ultimate. It is the Agni-Vaisvanara vision. Vision of Samaan that lights up everything including the Sun, is the final one.

Can you give the full text and full context of what Shri Ramana said? You are distorting Ramana and that is not acceptable. Ramana has pointed out that Shri Krishna said: "Arjuna see these --- and also see what you wish to see". Ramana emphasized that any vision is of the nature of experience and is controlled by predilection of the visionary. Yet the Seer having the vision is constant and Samaan.

True that visvarupa darshan is the ultimate knowledge when one knows "I am the seer and the seen".


When one sees any difference here one goes from death to death.
------------------------

We may agree to disagree here because this will be futile, until you comprehend the Samaan. Ultimately, the Seer is to be known and not the seen. Darshan of Agni-Vaisvanaro is one step. Yes you are speaking of darshan of Ishwara as Death and I am talking of Ishwara as one who bestows immoratlity.

Regards


Om Namah Shivaya

vishvarUpa is not the ultimate. Note that I said there is 'virtually' nothing beyond it. vishvarUpa is the Anandamaya brahman. But beneath the Anandamaya Brahman is the very source - Ananda itself. Ananda, the seer is the ultimate. This is why I classified it in 'waking deepsleep' and not turya.

You must realize that vision of this Anandamaya brahman is the penultimate step to the final Atma darshana, otherwise it will not be said that it is very rare or that Arjuna was the first person( which is some kind of arthavAda to eulogize the difficulty in getting to this stage)

Ramana has said that vishvarUpa is vishvAtma because crossing over from vishvarUpa to turya is only a simple processs for someone who has progressed to that stage. If an advaitin with mere bookish knowledge knows what to expect as the final truth, such a truth is easily known to the Yogi who comprehends the vishvarUpa.

There is probably no guidance needed for the Yogi after getting the initial visions because Self itself is the greatest guide. There is always the inner voice of Ishvara that guides you on and on, until absorption is complete.

Meditation should be done to get the first vision of God - it is always external to oneself. No one would go from purely ignorant to realize Advaita overnight. Once this first vision is achieved, rest is easy because you have a guide who knows the reality.


~RL

[atanu]

Namaste Rajalakshmi,

You have been alluding to Prajnaghana as a non-dual state, including Ishwara at the head with prajas; and confused the issue by drawing in the example of visvarupa darshana. This is my main point of disagreement. I have maintained that Prajnaghana is non-dual but in lower states Ishwara is known in duality. I have specifically said that multitude of bodies can exist in Taijjassa and Vaisvanro only.

But a illumined sadhaka will know the reality of these two states as all bodies as part of either Agni- Vaisvanaro or Taijjasso. Yet, the non-dual experience of Ishwara as pure intelligence is lacking. I insisted that Visvarupa darshana is of Agni-Vaisvanaro.

Now, let us not digress.Earlier you said:

Can you classify vishvarUpa as vishva or taijasa, which can hardly be classifed as the complete, most difficult to see, third eye vision?

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Ramana Maharishi has clarified that there is virtually nothing beyond vishvarUpa darshana.

We have seen what Ramana said. And now you say:

vishvarUpa is not the ultimate.
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Ramana has said that vishvarUpa is vishvAtma because crossing over from vishvarUpa to turya is only a simple processs for someone who has progressed to that stage.

Where did Ramana say that? Or is it your interpretation? Ramana actually said: In Visvarupa Darsan, Arjuna is told to see whatever he desired and not what was presented before him. How can that darsan be real?

vishvarUpa is the Anandamaya brahman. --- You must realize that vision of this Anandamaya brahman is the penultimate step to the final Atma darshana,

Can you cite a reference that says that visvarupa is Anandamaya Brahman and visvarupa darshana is Anandamaya brahman? I am perplexed about these correlations. A darshana, which evokes fear, can hardly be called darshana of Anadamaya Brahman.

Meditation should be done to get the first vision of God - it is always external to oneself. No one would go from purely ignorant to realize Advaita overnight. Once this first vision is achieved, rest is easy because you have a guide who knows the reality.

Very good. Thank you for the advice.

I am glad that you accept that Visvarupa darshana is visvaAtman darshana, which is Agni-Vaisvanaro darshana. Agni Vaisvanaro is Pratham. Surya-Agni is the birth, death, and existence of all embodied beings.

Regards,

Om