Originally Posted by
atanu
Namaste RL and readers,
My only point in this long and winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate (from Advaita view) and neither it is darshan of Ishwara – who is Advaita and non-different from Brahman. This point was agreed upon gingerly but you brought in fantastic new claims, which kept on increasing the futile discussion.
You claimed Agni-Vaisvanaro darshan is Anadamaya Brahman Darshan (no proof). You claimed falsely that Ramana has said that there is almost nothing beyond Visvarupa darshan. The most fantastic claim is: “Jagrat Shushupti is Visvarupa darshana.”
So you conclude that Arjuna had mere prakR^iti darshana after all? What is so meritorious about it? And why it so hard for even devatAs to get this vision? You seem to think that the jnAni just disappears into a void with enlightenment - in such a case not a single testimony for advaita will be there.
Originally Posted by
atanu
Do you contemplate ever? Do you know yourself how blissful, stress free, infinite, world free, ego less state that Shushupti is? Add to that the knowledge of Mandukya – that it is dense with bliss. Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake.
jAgrat shushupti is world free? In that case Ishvara himself may not know about the world at all. jAgrat shushupti is a great samAdhi where the Yogi is all knowing. Yes, it is blissful, and he is full of wisdom.
Now read what Arjuna says of the Visvarupa:
On seeing Thee (the Cosmic Form) touching the sky, shining in many colours, with mouths wide open, with large, fiery eyes, I am terrified at heart and find neither courage nor peace, O Vishnu!
If you insist that this is Jagrat Shushupti then please carry on with your self-willed concept.
Best Wishes, Om
You have clearly misunderstood vishvarUpa. Lord has blessed Arjuna so much, and how can it cause fear? It must be understood from the context.
Have you read this?
If hundreds of thousands of suns were to rise at once into the sky, their radiance might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.
You are without origin, middle or end. Your glory is unlimited. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are Your eyes. I see You with blazing fire coming forth from Your mouth, burning this entire universe by Your own radiance.
All these are symbolic descriptions of the indescribable, just like Mundaka says rukmavarNaM for the Lord.
O great one, greater even than Brahma, You are the original creator. Why then should they not offer their respectful obeisances unto You? O limitless one, God of gods, refuge of the universe! You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation.
How does Arjuna know about Lord being the cause of all causes by just knowing an insignicant portion of it?
O best of the Kuru warriors, no one before you has ever seen this universal form of Mine, for neither by studying the Vedas, nor by performing sacrifices, nor by charity, nor by pious activities, nor by severe penances can I be seen in this form in the material world.
Yet you think that it is just another experience! You cannot hope to realize it through the most difficult samAdhis - is what the Lord is saying.
The Lord said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the gods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear.
If a form induces fear as you have described, why would gods be ever seeking an opportunity to see that form? So your objections are totally invalid. The first time experience stunned Arjuna that he was stupefied at what he saw. He was not expecting that much - those used only to the finite are thrown out of gear when they encounter the infinite the first time.
The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am.
My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.
Note that bhagavAn has dismissed all notions that such an experience Arjuna had, cannot be achieved by any ordinary means. Specially note that he said Arjuna has seen him 'Me as I am'. (i.e the true nature)
Arjuna is a special jIva and an incarnation of Indra. Anyone who reads the kaushitaki brAhmaNa upanishad will know that Indra is a jnAni. Read the pratardana adhikaraNa of Shankara's BSB to know more about it. Arjuna is no less than the uttama purusha even when he incarnated on earth. Why will he experience anything less than the highest truth? There are bouts of BMI identifications for jnAnins that is why Arjuna is not always in the awakened state. You must be knowing that Arjuna is the rishi nara and Krishna is nArAyaNa, both are foremost of rishis as explained in the mahAbhAratha. Arjuna is a rishi, you know that right? He is a jnAni even before he incarnates as Arjuna, and just participates in bhagavAn's leela for the destruction of the wicked.
So with the evidence that
1. Arjuna is Indra himself.
2. Arjuna is one of the foremost of rishis, nara.
3. Arjuna is a jIvanmukta of the asaMsakti stage as mentioned in the Yoga vAsishTa. ( I will give you the exact quote)
4. bhAgavata has classifed Arjuna as a jnAni.
it is hopeless to conclude that Arjuna was overcome with fear and all that. Arjuna is a realized soul even before the darshana and even before he was born as Arjuna, and anyone who knows that will realize the great heights of Arjuna's vishvarUpa darshana. It is also well known that Arjuna had realized Lord Shiva during vanaparva and even obtained pAshupata astra from him. We even have purANas telling us that vishNu was afraid of Shiva's form or that Shiva was afraid to see Vishnu etc - they mean nothing. Going by your explanations, if Lord offers his darshan we must say no because we will experience fear. And if a bhakta wants to see the true form of the Lord (asked by Arjuna) he instead reveals a half truth that induces fear!
With all this evidence, if you conclude that Arjuna did not get very close to the truth ( or realized the truth itself) it is only your predilections. Let us wind up this topic and let us agree to disagree.
~RL
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