Regarding recent discussions...

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste Atanu,

Please note the it is mentioned that even devatAs rarely get this vishvarUpa darshana. I am citing again:

manyase yadi tachchhakyaM mayA draShTumiti prabho .
yogeshvara tato me tva.n darshayAtmAnamavyayam.h (11.4)

Note the word 'avyayaM' in the request of Arjuna. It means Arjuna desires to see the complete form of Ishvara. This vision is a special one, not available to most Yogis on earth.

sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH (11.52)

The word 'sudurdarshamidaM' shows that the vision is extremely rare. And it also mentions that even devatAs( devA api) rarely get to see this form of Ishvara. You must be aware that devatAs are known as jnAnins and have much more knowledge about God than humans ( not necessarily the highest though)

na tu mA.n shakyase draShTumanenaiva svachakShuShA .
divya.n dadAmi te chakShuH pashya me yogamaishvaram.h (11.8)

Arjuna is given divya chakshuH to experience this form of Ishvara.

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h .
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdya.n
yanme tvadanyena na dR^iShTapUrvam.h (11.47)

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara.( which should be taken in the sense that it is very rare, and even devatas cannot get this vision easily)

Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'. Atma darshana will automatically follow from the vishvarUpa darshana for obvious reasons that you have been graced fully by the Lord. How often do you think Lord goes in rounds offering his cosmic vision to people? It is an extremely rare vision as mentioned in the Gita itself.

You have failed to explain why this is such a rare vision especially when Arjuna has requested the Lord to show his avyaya rUpa. ( full form).

You are still thinking of the dualty within the rUpaM as an indicator of lesser realization. But if no dualty were present, then how do you think Advaitin realized gurus ever recognize their disciples or teach them? So, there is always dualty within any non dual realization until videha mukti. Dualty will be known for what it truly is for a self realized sage - something that has lesser reality than Atma.

Didn't Sri Krishna have the highest realization? Then how was he teaching Arjuna if he saw only non dualty? So even in such vishvarUpa, there will be dualty within non dualty - vishvarUpa may span many states of consciousness and may be the reason it is mentioned to be very difficult to obtain - only in the deepest samAdhi.( equivalent of getting the jnAna chaxus)

~RL

[atanu]

It states that no one prior to Arjuna had experienced such a form of Ishvara.( which should be taken in the sense that it is very rare, and even devatas cannot get this vision easily)

Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'.

Namaste RL,

As usual. I had asked for a citation to show that Visvarupa is Anandamaya Brahman and except that citation all other things are there including an accusation. Please be a little thoughtful. What vested interest I can have? Is it not uncalled for, at least from you?

Actually it is you who mis-represented Ramana, not me.

I had answered your question as to why no one prior to Arjuna had seen the particular Visvarupa and why it has to be rare, but since you are stuck with your view you did not see it. My Agni-Vaisvanaro Darshana will not be same as yours and yours will not be same as Sarabhanga's. It is not a constant view and so it cannot be real (basic premise of Advaita).

An American will have a different view of Agni-Vaisvanaro and a Chinese different. So, no one had seen earlier exactly what Arjuna saw.

The darshana you are speaking about is not of the ultimate truth since it was fraught with fear. And since Krishna said: "See what you wish to see".

Visvarupa is definitely a illumined view of Visva Atman (Agni-Vaisvanaro) and that is certainly a truth of a Pada.


And I am surprised now when you say "Unless you have some vested interests, you cannot dismiss this vision as 'not nearly the highest realization'. Whereas, just in previous post you said: " ---vishvarUpa is not the ultimate."

Namaste Atanu,
You have failed to explain why this is such a rare vision especially when Arjuna has requested the Lord to show his avyaya rUpa. ( full form).
~RL

Thank you again for pointing out my failures. I hope you can see yours and accept them.

How can anyone show you your own form, which is the only true form? No one can show you your fearless rupa from outside as differences will persist. Seer is within and one has to know the Seer (Self) by the Self and not by something external to oneself. Visvarupa darshana is illumined view of Agni-Vaisvanaro. It is the truth of One Pada only.

Self is known by the Self. Where one sees even a little difference one goes from death to death.

Regards. This should be my last post on this subject.

Om

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste,

Let us go through this once again. Sorry if I have hurt your feelings. Not intentional. I beleive that vishvarUpa is a misunderstood topic. You can find people saying all sorts of things about it - some say it was just another mystic experience; some say it is the fullest of all experiences; some say that it a vision of the world; some say it is that of the vishvAtma (Atma of the world);

This is a rather complex and long post and I request you go through carefully.

Let us first find out What did arjuNa really see in the battlefield of kurukshetra, which has become famous as vishvarUpa darshana- something that seems to be unqiue in all of our scriptures? Did he see God as a dinosaur giant? Or did he see something else? The contents of this post were developed over a number of discussions with many ppl several years ago.

There were at least three occassions when Sri kR^ishhNa showed vishvarUpa; once, as a child, He was eating soil, when His mother wanted to him to open His mouth so she could take the soil out; for a second time, when He went to mediate for the pANDavas asking for five villages in the kaurava court, as duryodhana wanted to capture Him and, and for the third time to arjuna in the battlefield of kurukshetra. These visions were all different, as He told arjuna (SBG 11.47). The vishvarUpa that He showed arjuNa is the most famous one.

In chapter 13, verse 13, as Sri kR^ishhNa describes:

sarvataH pANipAdaM tat.h sarvato.akshishiromukhaM
sarvataH shrutimalloke sarvamAvR^itya tishhThati. BG 13.13

I would like to draw your attention especially to one word, sarvataH. sarvataH means 'in every'.

sarvataH pANipAdaM sarvataH akshishiromukhaM sarvataH shrutimat.h tat.h
loke sarvaM AvR^itya tishhThati.

God who is in all arms and feet, all eyes, heads and mouths, all hearing ears, is present in all the worlds covering the entire creation.

Rather than, God who has everywhere, His arms and feet, eyes and heads and mouths and hearing ears, is situated in all worlds covering all of creation. To me, it seems that this verse claims our hands and our feet and other appendages to be God's form.

This is the first misunderstanding of the vishvarUpa that people make - vishvarUpa actually wants to tell you that the universe is just a small attachment or reflection of God, and not the universe by itself.

sarvendriyaguNAbhAsaM sarvendriya vivarjitaM.
asaktaM sarvabhR^ichchaiva nirguNaM guNabhoktR^i BG 13.14

The verse says:

He who is the subtle expression (AbhAsa) of the guNas of all indriyas, bereft of all indriyas, unattached, also is alone the filler of all requirements, guNa-less, also the enjoyer of guNas.

What did then arjuNa mean by sahasrabAho vishvamurte (BG 11.46) or
thousand armed world form ?

avibhaktaJNcha bhUteshhu vibhaktamiva cha sthitaM. (SBG 13.16)

(He) although undivided, is situated as if divided. That means, His 'world form' features are 'as if' ones.

Sri kR^ishhNa Himself describes the vishvarUpa simply as :

mayA prasannena tavArjunedaM, rUpaM paraM darshitaM AtmayogAt.h
tejomayaM vishvaM anantaM AdyaM yanme tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM. (BG 11.47).


I, being pleased, have shown you this luminous (tejomaya), infinite (ananta), original (Adi), wonderful World form (paraM vishvarUpaM) by my Atmayoga. arjuNa, such has not been seen by anybody before.

Given the vivid visuals that arjuna described in this chapter, this may seem as an understatement. Let us investigate the new tool (divya-chakshu) that He gave arjuNa in order for him to see the world form. What would a person be expected to see if he had this gift?

SBG verses 15.10-11 describe this:

utkrAmantaM sthitaM vApi bhuJNjAnaM vA guNAnvitaM.
vimuDA nAnupashyanti pashyanti GYAnachakshushhaH. (BG 15.10)

yatanto yoginaschainaM pashyantyAtmananyavasthitaM.
yatanto.apyakR^itAtmAno nainaM pashyantyachetasaH. (BG 15.11)

In essence, these two verses say that such a person (or yogi) endowed with GYAna-chakshu can see the jivAtman, both when It is seated in the body or when It is leaving the body. Of course, the description here is for
GYAnachakshu not divya-chakshu. But I have not found any reason to
think that they are different; it seems to me that GYAnachakshu and
divya-chakshu are the same thing. We will see the reason at the end.

If they are, it explains why arjuna described the headgears, the maces,
the wheels in verse BG 11.17. My hypothesis is, those things belonged to
the soldiers around him, in whom, because of divya-dR^ishhTi, arjuna saw
the undivided yet 'as if' divided Atman, and their war gears also appeared
as divya or all luminous . After all, the soldiers too are His Self-projections (ahaM sarvasya prabhavo BG 10.8).

Sri kR^ishhNa says that He is the One Who is present in every heart
(sarvasya chAhaM hR^idi sannivishhto SBG 15.15). I would like to think
that this is the world vision Arjuna saw as vishvarUpa; namely, he saw the One undivided in all that appears to be divided, that was as luminious as thousand suns, rather than the monstrous being. In shrI kR^ishhNa¹s own words ( SBG 11.47), it is His original, limitless, (yet) world-form. The
world is not limitless, but God is, what then, is the justification of
calling it 'world form'? It would be a contradiction of terms, unless, He
was showing his transcendent form over the universe, i.e the Atma.

arjuNa described this transcendent form in a most unusual way (SBG
11.46). When he was scared of seeing the kAla manifestation, he wanted to see Him as he had seen Him (four-armed) before. Arjuna describes (SBG 11.38) the vishvarUpa as original deva (Adideva) and the purANa purUshha( eternal being which cannot be any perishable vision), ultimate container of the world (tvam purAna purUshha, asya vishvasya paraM nidhAnaM), also as the ultimate goal which can only be Atma.
(parama dhAma), by whom the world has been elaborated (tvayA vishvaM
tataM). The next verse (SBG 11.39) describes his vision more succintly,
arjuna says, you are vAyu, yama, agni, varuna, shashAnka, prajApati
(brahmA), and the greatgrandfather (vishhNu). These descriptions would be inconsistent with God being a separate being( from oneself), and suggest that arjuNa saw Him in all these different devas. The vision of everything as vAsudeva has been described as an advanced vision, available to mahAtmAs (BG 7.19), that might be the vision arjuna had by Divine grace (BG 11.39).The next verse (SBG 11.40) is the most unique, in which, arjuna identifies His frontside, backside and all sides and says that He is present in all directions, therefore he describes Him as sarvaH
(svarUpa). He would not be sarvaH without a reference to the
multiplicity. Therefore, arjuna must have bowed to the various devas (SBG
11.39) in whom he saw Him, and bowed to them (SBG 11.40). This can be
nothing else than the sarvagata AtmA.

Compare this with the chAndogya verse, which talks about the mukta:

athaata aatmaadesha evaatmaivaadhastaadaatmoparishhTaadaatmaa
pashchaadaatmaa purastaadaatmaa dakshiNata aatmottarata
aatmaiveda\m+ sarvamiti sa vaa eshha evaM pashyannevaM manvaana evaM
vijaanannaatmaratiraatmakriiDa aatmamithuna aatmaanandaH sa
svaraaDbhavati tasya sarveshhu lokeshhu kaamachaaro bhavati
atha ye.anyathaato viduranyaraajaanaste kshayyalokaa bhavanti
teshhaa\m+ sarveshhu lokeshhvakaamachaaro bhavati || C. U 7.25.2||


This is narrated by R^ishhi Atreya to R^ishhi agnivesha( in chakara saMhita) as he describes the passage of jivAtman.

bhutaischaturbhiH sahitaH sa sukshmairmanojabo dehamupaiti dehAt.h
karmAtmakatvAnnatu tasya dR^ishyaM divyaM vinA darshanamasti rUpaM.

sa sarvagaH sarvasharIrabhR^ichcha sa vishvakarmA sa cha vishvarUpaH
sa chetanAdhAturatIndriyascha sa nityayuk.h sAnushayaH sa eva.

jivAtman, because of picking up karma (karmAtmakatva), goes from one body to another with the four sukshmabhutas by the speed of mind. That sight is not seeable with any other sight than divyadR^ishhTi.

That Atman is sarvagata, the provider of all bodies, He is vishvakarmA,
vishvarUpa, chetanA-dhAtu, atIndriya. He is always connected with body,
therefore is following (karma).

In these verses, divya-dR^ishhTi and GYAna-dR^ishhTi are equated and also, the vishvarUpa is ascribed to the jivAtman. Thus it appears that inspite of the grand visual description given in the vishvarUpa( for the sake of describing something), it only appears to be Arjuna's vision of Atma, along with the world which is its reflection. Read 11-31 through 11-37 to get the more complete picture. There seems to be a lot of variety because Arjuna wades through several layers of higher awareness and we can only guess what was his highest experience.

To summarize :

avibhakta.n cha bhUteShu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam.h .
bhUtabhartR^i cha tajGYeyaM grasiShNu prabhaviShNu cha

This vision of the Atma which is undivided yet appears divided seems to be what vishvarUpa us.

Note that Yoga-vAshishTa has devoted a separate chapter for Arjuna and classified him as a jIvanmukta( I can give the exact quote if you need) - this cannot be a simple boast. Bhagavata also calls Arjuna a jnAni.



~RL

[atanu]

Namaste,

Let us go through this once again. Sorry if I have hurt your feelings. Not intentional. I beleive that vishvarUpa is a misunderstood topic. -
~RL

Namaste RL,

I have no interest, my friend. Any amount of citation will not be able to convince me that a darshana which evokes fear and which view is dependent on the wishes of a person is the final truth. And it is not my wish to convert you.

I am a bit surprised that even after saying "visvarupa is not the ultimate --", you are still intent upon hair splitting. Since that is my only point.

I say that Prajna Iswara is non-dual ( but with sleep as Avidya). Duality begins from Taijjassa and becomes solidified in Visvam. Bhagawan Krishna is great that He showed the common thread of life and death in Viswam. Yet, the view of Death was scary, which cannot be the ultimate view towards liberation, which is immortality.

I have said all that I had to. Regards and Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Rajalakshmi]

I have no interest, my friend. Any amount of citation will not be able to convince me that a darshana which evokes fear and which view is dependent on the wishes of a person is the final truth. And it is not my wish to convert you.

I am a bit surprised that even after saying "visvarupa is not the ultimate --", you are still intent upon hair splitting. Since that is my only point.

I say that Prajna Iswara is non-dual ( but with sleep as Avidya). Duality begins from Taijjassa and becomes solidified in Visvam. Bhagawan Krishna is great that He showed the common thread of life and death in Viswam. Yet, the view of Death was scary, which cannot be the ultimate view towards liberation, which is immortality.

I have said all that I had to. Regards and Best Wishes.

Om Namah Shivaya

You did not realize that Arjuna's consciousness must have spanned all of vishva, taijasa, prAjna ( and perhaps turIya too) , and it was only in the waking state that he expressed fear - do you speak in the turIya state? Krishna himself has frequently run away from jarAsandha in the waking state? How many times Lord Rama has cried in the waking state? How many times Sita Devi has been terrified at Ravana's appearance? parashurAma has been defeated by Bhisma in the waking state. And you use the waking state 'fear' to conclude that it was not a valid experience? Does anyone ever have fear in a God vision? Then what use is that? The fear he expresses is when the vision is gradually terminated - bringing him into ground realities of the waking state. Some people imagine that Krishna simply became a big person in the battle field and showed that to Arjuna - this is very incorrect. Arjuna must be completelely absorbed for the time being to be able to experience the 6-29, 6-30 kind of experience. He is just giving comments from the waking state, as if somebody can describe the higher states from the waking state!

Arjuna is possibly a jIvanmukta by that experience( actually certified by yogavAsishTa and bhAgavata so it is not a guess from my side), and anything that follows may only be a leela. Why I am not willing to accept with you is because it has been described to be anantaM in 11.47, which is true only of the Atma. The world vision by any stretch of imagination cannot be anantaM. It is the turIya darshana which has been described as anantaM. Words like tejomaya and various divine forms used in 11.47 are clearly that of prAjna. Both vishva and taijasa are percieved by Arjuna too as effects of the sarvagata Atma.

jIvanmukta's vyavahAra drishyA has been well described in the Gita too:

sarvabhUtasthamAtmAnaM sarvabhUtAni chAtmani .
IkShate yogayuktAtmA sarvatra samadarshanaH .. 6\-29..
yo mAM pashyati sarvatra sarva.n cha mayi pashyati .
tasyAhaM na praNashyAmi sa cha me na praNashyati .. 6\-30..

A true yogi observes Me in all beings and also sees every being in Me. Indeed, the self−realized person sees Me, the same Supreme Lord, everywhere.

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.

Dont you think Arjuna had these during his experiences?

I can establish with even more strong pramANas that Arjuna( you must be knowing that Arjuna is sAxAt indrAvatAra and not an ordinary human being right?) is a full blown jnAni - since you are already convinced in your conclusions, I am stopping here.

If you are convinced that Arjuna was still an ignorant lot, and gained virtually nothing after all that except momentary happiness, let us stop this topic. Arjuna was a born aparoxin, who suffered from aparoxa tirodAna frequently due to prArabdha karma - this can be easily established.

~RL

[atanu]

Namaste RL,

Just a few points that remained untouched.

Why I am not willing to accept with you is because it has been described to be anantaM in 11.47,---

I am not asking you to accept anything. But to pause and contemplate. Of course Agni-Vaisvanaro is Anantam – else why would Mandukya explain it? And Life-Death is Satya and eternal. It needs no shruti to know that.I have already said that the Padas are invariant. Yet one Pada is not the Self. The anantam nature of states derive directly from Self, which is Anadimat.

If you are convinced that Arjuna was still an ignorant lot, and gained virtually nothing after all that except momentary happiness, let us stop this topic. Arjuna was a born aparoxin, who suffered from aparoxa tirodAna frequently due to prArabdha karma - this can be easily established.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I have not said Arjuna did not gain anything.

You did not realize that Arjuna's consciousness must have spanned all of vishva, taijasa, prAjna ( and perhaps turIya too) ,---

You know what you are saying? You are very deluded. Does your consciousness not span all states but are you a Jnani?

Om

[atanu]

Namaste RL and readers,

(I am talking of Advaita and no other vada).

My only point in this long winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate Brahman Darshana (from Advaita view). This point was agreed upon gingerly but you brought in fantastic new claims, which kept on increasing the futile discussion.

You claimed Agni-Vaisvanaro darshan is Anadamaya Brahman Darshan (no proof). You claimed falsely that Ramana has said that there is almost nothing beyond Visvarupa darshan. The most fantastic claim is: “Jagrat Shushupti is Visvarupa darshana.”

Do you contemplate ever? Do you know yourself how blissful, stress free, infinite, world free, ego less state that Shushupti is? Add to that the knowledge of Mandukya – that it is dense with bliss. Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake. You are infinite and bliss and pure light of intelligence.


Now read what Arjuna says of the Visvarupa:

On seeing Thee (the Cosmic Form) touching the sky, shining in many colours, with mouths wide open, with large, fiery eyes, I am terrified at heart and find neither courage nor peace, O Vishnu!



If you insist that this is Jagrat Shushupti then please carry on with your self-willed concept.


Best Wishes, Om

[Rajalakshmi]

Namaste RL and readers,

My only point in this long and winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate (from Advaita view) and neither it is darshan of Ishwara – who is Advaita and non-different from Brahman. This point was agreed upon gingerly but you brought in fantastic new claims, which kept on increasing the futile discussion.

You claimed Agni-Vaisvanaro darshan is Anadamaya Brahman Darshan (no proof). You claimed falsely that Ramana has said that there is almost nothing beyond Visvarupa darshan. The most fantastic claim is: “Jagrat Shushupti is Visvarupa darshana.”

So you conclude that Arjuna had mere prakR^iti darshana after all? What is so meritorious about it? And why it so hard for even devatAs to get this vision? You seem to think that the jnAni just disappears into a void with enlightenment - in such a case not a single testimony for advaita will be there.

Do you contemplate ever? Do you know yourself how blissful, stress free, infinite, world free, ego less state that Shushupti is? Add to that the knowledge of Mandukya – that it is dense with bliss. Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake.

jAgrat shushupti is world free? In that case Ishvara himself may not know about the world at all. jAgrat shushupti is a great samAdhi where the Yogi is all knowing. Yes, it is blissful, and he is full of wisdom.

Now read what Arjuna says of the Visvarupa:
On seeing Thee (the Cosmic Form) touching the sky, shining in many colours, with mouths wide open, with large, fiery eyes, I am terrified at heart and find neither courage nor peace, O Vishnu!


If you insist that this is Jagrat Shushupti then please carry on with your self-willed concept.


Best Wishes, Om

You have clearly misunderstood vishvarUpa. Lord has blessed Arjuna so much, and how can it cause fear? It must be understood from the context.

Have you read this?

If hundreds of thousands of suns were to rise at once into the sky, their radiance might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.

You are without origin, middle or end. Your glory is unlimited. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are Your eyes. I see You with blazing fire coming forth from Your mouth, burning this entire universe by Your own radiance.

All these are symbolic descriptions of the indescribable, just like Mundaka says rukmavarNaM for the Lord.

O great one, greater even than Brahma, You are the original creator. Why then should they not offer their respectful obeisances unto You? O limitless one, God of gods, refuge of the universe! You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation.

How does Arjuna know about Lord being the cause of all causes by just knowing an insignicant portion of it?

O best of the Kuru warriors, no one before you has ever seen this universal form of Mine, for neither by studying the Vedas, nor by performing sacrifices, nor by charity, nor by pious activities, nor by severe penances can I be seen in this form in the material world.

Yet you think that it is just another experience! You cannot hope to realize it through the most difficult samAdhis - is what the Lord is saying.

The Lord said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the gods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear.

If a form induces fear as you have described, why would gods be ever seeking an opportunity to see that form? So your objections are totally invalid. The first time experience stunned Arjuna that he was stupefied at what he saw. He was not expecting that much - those used only to the finite are thrown out of gear when they encounter the infinite the first time.

The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am.

My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.

Note that bhagavAn has dismissed all notions that such an experience Arjuna had, cannot be achieved by any ordinary means. Specially note that he said Arjuna has seen him 'Me as I am'. (i.e the true nature)

Arjuna is a special jIva and an incarnation of Indra. Anyone who reads the kaushitaki brAhmaNa upanishad will know that Indra is a jnAni. Read the pratardana adhikaraNa of Shankara's BSB to know more about it. Arjuna is no less than the uttama purusha even when he incarnated on earth. Why will he experience anything less than the highest truth? There are bouts of BMI identifications for jnAnins that is why Arjuna is not always in the awakened state. You must be knowing that Arjuna is the rishi nara and Krishna is nArAyaNa, both are foremost of rishis as explained in the mahAbhAratha. Arjuna is a rishi, you know that right? He is a jnAni even before he incarnates as Arjuna, and just participates in bhagavAn's leela for the destruction of the wicked.

So with the evidence that

1. Arjuna is Indra himself.
2. Arjuna is one of the foremost of rishis, nara.
3. Arjuna is a jIvanmukta of the asaMsakti stage as mentioned in the Yoga vAsishTa. ( I will give you the exact quote)
4. bhAgavata has classifed Arjuna as a jnAni.

it is hopeless to conclude that Arjuna was overcome with fear and all that. Arjuna is a realized soul even before the darshana and even before he was born as Arjuna, and anyone who knows that will realize the great heights of Arjuna's vishvarUpa darshana. It is also well known that Arjuna had realized Lord Shiva during vanaparva and even obtained pAshupata astra from him. We even have purANas telling us that vishNu was afraid of Shiva's form or that Shiva was afraid to see Vishnu etc - they mean nothing. Going by your explanations, if Lord offers his darshan we must say no because we will experience fear. And if a bhakta wants to see the true form of the Lord (asked by Arjuna) he instead reveals a half truth that induces fear!

With all this evidence, if you conclude that Arjuna did not get very close to the truth ( or realized the truth itself) it is only your predilections. Let us wind up this topic and let us agree to disagree.

~RL

[sarabhanga]

Namaste,

Quite simply,

nara = ekapadam = arUpa
nArAyaNa = sahasrapAda = vishvarUpa

The vishvarUpa of nArAyaNa is expressed in every degree of consciousness, and the initial meeting may seem frightful, but that is only mAyA, and (once the realization is comfortably seated) all fear is quickly dissolved.

nara = sahasrAram = turya = hara
naranArAyaNau = AjñA = prAjña = harihare
nArAyaNa = hRdayam = taijasa = hari
nAra = maNipUram = vaishvAnara = hAra

[devotee]

My only point in this long winded discussion was that Visva Atman darshana is not the ultimate Brahman Darshana (from Advaita view). ................ Now contemplate that state as if you are fully awake. You are infinite and bliss and pure light of intelligence.

Namaste Atanu & RL,

I fully agree that Visva Atman Darshan is not Brahman Darshana & I have no doubts on it. In fact, no Darshan can be Brahman Darshana. Darshana of Brahman is an impossibility. All darshans are creations within mind, within duality, they are just illusions.

I think this discussion has got stuck in the jungle of words .... under quotations / counter-quotations of who said what & what is written where. This approach lands us always into such types of situations. Words don't convey exactly what is really intended by the speaker ..... the listener doesn't exactly grasp what is expressed in words. As the words keep on changing their meanings with time, even use of etimology (going to the roots of the words) doesn't help understand the things in right perspective unless you have access to semantics of the words at the particular time when the word was used.

IMHO, The right approach is :

i) Choose the undeniable Truth
ii) Try to find the agreement of all sources with the Undeniable Truth. If something is not in agreement, then must be a contamination due to problem in understanding of the statements.

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Are we not of one opinion that :

a) SELF is just One ?
b)That Mind turned inward is SELF, turned outwards, it becomes "ego" & all the world ?

If these two statements are taken as the Undeniable Truth, the understanding becomes very clear & easy. Lets ask these questions & also try to answer :

Is Visva Atman Darshan Brahman Darshana ?

How can it be ? For any Darshan, mind must be present, duality must be there .... there must be a seer different from the seen. In other words, Brahman darshan tries to propose that the Brahman is different from the seer. ..... And thus it violates the Undeniable Truth of "Non-duality" & hence is impossible.

IMO, once we understand those two statements without doubt, there won't be any doubt over questions on Non-duality.

Regards