Namaste,
I can almost follow this debate - I love it when y'all talk turkey, so to speak.
Thanks!
ZN
Namaste,
I can almost follow this debate - I love it when y'all talk turkey, so to speak.
Thanks!
ZN
yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .
It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.
Namaste ZN,
Yeh. There is no debate, therefore your failure.
For sake of record and in reverence to what Devotee, Sarabhanga, and RL have said I will jot down a few points.
I have not said anywhere that Arjuna had mere prakR^iti darshana. Though it is true. It is not possible to have darshana of Self as another since, the Self itself is the Seer/Cogniser. How can the knower know the knower, as Brihadaraynaka queries? Yet, darshana is of the self alone since it is "Not Two" -- Prakriti is also of the self.
Brahma is ONE -- the Seer as well as the Seen. But Brahma Sakshatkara may be infinite. When I see a cat, I see its life force and intelligence, I see manifestation of Satya and Satya of Satya. The Vayu that is Sutra, which connects all jivas is nothing but Brahman. The space in which this Vayu resides is Brahman. The Ether (so called void) in which space exists is Brahman. And the intelligence in the Samaan ether is Brahman. It is the indescribable Self.
From Dvaita and VA views, the Visvarupa Darshan is the ultimate Darshana and it is correct as far as Dvaita and VA go. So, RL is correct.
Yet I (and most Advaitins) think otherwise. avyayam is imperishable and is not synonymous to complete. Neither does Yoga Vasista say anywhere that Brahman is of form. And Yoga Vasista, in the Chapter on Arjuna, does not describe Visvarupam (as far as I remember). On the contrary, it shows Krishna teaching that Brahman has no form.
As the name itself suggests, Visvarupa Darshana is Visva Atman Darshana and till one can realise that Atman is ONE, it is not the ultimate sakshatkara.
Shruti says: There is no difference here. Self-Brahman is called as the indescribable thing abiding in the Samaan. One who sees any diffference here goes from death to death. But Arjuna saw Death Himself. (Shri Krishna said: Fear Not. And this 'Fear Not' is the truth. 'Fear Not', is the Jnana Upadesha that there is 'Not two', that Arjuna should fear).
Prajna-Iswara is dense bliss and not dual. It is the door to duality of two planes of Taijjassa and Vaisvanaro. So, a view which involves multiplicities and does not evoke bliss cannot be true Iswara Darshana.
God says "I am Kalosmi". With our solid brick like views we say kala is Sun-Agni. But does Kala have a form? Yes it has form called limited form of Prajapati. Being limited it is perishable. Yet, there is Prajapati undefined.
Arjuna was asked "--See also that which you desire to see." Brahman is not dependent on wish of an individual. Though all wishes are granted, since consciousness makes the wish and grants them.
---------------------------------
These are not for entering into a fresh argument but a summary of MY views, which may be taken or discarded. And I feel that these may be the view of Advaita knowers as well.
I have never said that Visvarupa Darshana is not Brahman Darshana but I only say that it is Darshana of Visva Atman (Agni-Vaisvanaro) pada of Brahman.
Pranam to all
Om
Last edited by atanu; 24 January 2008 at 02:28 AM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Some of the problems to me seem to stem from the fact VishvarUpa is not considered as Atma darshana because the word darshana is used. But the word darshana by itself does not mean, anything external to oneself was seen by Arjuna at that time.
Can anyone talk and give commentary on his experiences in the higher planes like Arjuna did? Is vishvarUpa darshana a spatial vision? If vishvarUpa were a kind of external vision as people think, then Arjuna must have seen himself inside the vishvarUpa, and Krishna must be showing a vishvarUpa inside that, and Arjuna inside that, and it becomes an infinitely nested vishvarUpa darshana. This is not the way to look at vishvarUpa darshana at all.
That is the significance of the divya chaxus given to Arjuna, which completely does away with indirya/manas perception, and gives crystal clear picture of reality. Arjuna sees the virAt purusha which shows the fearful form of the gross elements of mAyA - he gets afraid, so to speak. Time is associated with death and a such a vision is always extraoinary and fearsome for someone experiencing it. Then Arjuna sees hiraNyagraba form, i.e the subtle form of Atma, in which various spiritual visions are seen.( i.e those not belonging to this visible universe).
Arjuna sees the one undivided Atma apparently divided in these two forms of Atma - in this is dualty, where emotions are expressed by Arjuna. The person standing before him is Ishvara himself. What is the reason for him not revealing his prAjna rUpa to Arjuna when Arjuna had asked him to reveal himself completely, which is pure consciousness. This was also certainly revealed though it is beyond description. Arjuna cannot describe it even if he wants to - he just says it is anantaM.
How is it known that prAjna Atma was also revealed?
The word vishva means whole, full, perfect etc- it is not universal form as often wrongly translated. vishvarUpa is so called because it is the whole form of God - i.e exhausts the full nature of God.
He, the Lord, is called Vishva, for being of complete nature (pUrNata) - padma purANa.
vishvarUpaM prathamato brahmA.apashyachchaturmukhaH |
tachchhatAMshena rudrastu tachchhatAMshena vAsavaH |
yathendreNa purA dR^ishhTumapashyat.h so.arjuno.api san.h |
tadanye kramayogena tachchhatAMshAdidarshanaH ||
The vishva-rUpa was first seen by the Chaturmukha-Brahma; a hundredth of that by Rudra, and a hundredth of that by the deities; as had been seen by Indra previously, so too was seen by Arjuna; other than he, according to worth, was seen a hundredth, and so forth," says the Brahmanda purANa.
So there are grades in the visvarUpa. It was not even the first time Arjuna is getting this experience, as indicated in the brahmANDa. Some people get to see only the vishva form, some the taijasa and some get the pure consciousness. The form seen by Chaturmukha-Brahma cannot be dismissed as devoid of the highest knowledge. If our creator Chaturmukha-Brahma cannot experience his oneness with the Self, what chance do others have?
vishvarUpa also includes the vaishvAnara.
sa eshha vaishvAnaro vishvarUpaH prANA.agnirudayate | (prashna up 1.7)
tvamakSharaM paramaM veditavya.n tvamasya vishvasya paraM nidhAnam.h .
tvamavyayaH shAshvatadharmagoptA sanAtanastvaM puruSho mato me 11.18
References to the vishvarUpa as axaraM, paramaM, paraM nidhAnaM, avyayaM etc rule out the visvarUpa being merely gross or subtle forms of Atma because they are neither axaraM( imperishable) nor paraM ( paraM is always sarveshvara) nor paraM nidhAnam.h ( the highest goal). Is virAt rUpa paraM nidhAnaM? Certainly not.
sudurdarshamidaM rUpaM dR^iShTavAnasi yanmama .
devA apyasya rUpasya nitya.n darshanakAN^kShiNaH 11.52
What is so special about such a vision, which even devatas cannot see? There is something more to this vision than it suggests. Devatas are always knowledgeable about virAt and hiraNyagarbha due to their higher states of conciosuness, and if what Krishna revealed to Arjuna was hard even for these devatas = it certainly means something much higher.
While I wont say that Arjuna had realized the Self with such a vision, he must have gotten very close atleast - atleast sarveshvara, the pure consciousness. The fact is also known because Arjuna is Indra himself, Arjuna is rishi nara. Arjuna is a jIvanmukta as per Yoga vAsishTa. Arjuna is a jnAni as per bhAgavata - we have to ignore all these evidences to conclude that vishvarUpa was merely a realization of dualty.
~RL
This means that vishvarUpa cannot be seen unless one is at the center of being, i.e the seer. If anyone will see vishvarUpa external to the Self, he will see infinite vishvarUpas each one nested inside the other. vishvarUpa is clearly beyond space and mind - going by this paradox.Originally Posted by RL
Namaste RL,
I hope you have not missed that the account of Visvarupa-Darshan is given in full detail in Gita, which is all visual & undoubtably there is a seer & the seen. So, how can the duality be discounted here ??
Regards
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"
By that same token Lord Krishna who is able to talk to Arjuna must be called an ajnAni too, since he *sees* Arjuna and all the warriors in the battle field. The same vishvarUpa must always be pratyaxa to Krishna too isnt it? So if you ask Krishna to describe he will also describe it the way Arjuna has. Does that mean Krishna is an ajnAni?
The visual is there because Arjuna sees world as a reflection of the Self, and the Self itself cannot be described except that Arjuna calls it anantaM, axaraM, paramaM etc( no one will call vishva and taijasa as axaraM meaning eternal). Arjuna is giving a description of dualty that he percieves in the lower states. If he describes nothing, then we would have to assume that he realized nothing. The description may also be only graphic - remember that also. Even vishva and taijasa can never be described in terms of words.
Arjuna would be able to describe only concepts that figure in the seer-seen relationship that can happen only in vishva and taijasa. Can the Absolute be described? But the visvarUpa can never be seen external to onself - this needs to be remembered as it will create a huge logical paradox as explained above.
Another thing that has to be known is that Self and mAyA are related by an equation of the form;
Self + mAyA = k
If mAyA is fully known, Self is always fully known too. If mAyA is unknown, Self is unknown too. That is how Ishvara is aware of both Self and non self all the time. This is the case with all uttama purushas. Is Arjuna an uttama purusha? Yes, say the pramANAs.
~RL
Namaste Rajlakshmi,
I think we were discussing "whether Visvarupa Darshan is the ultimate Brahman Darshana or not ?". Right ? How does this logic fit here :
How is it able to prove whether Visvarupa darshan is Ultimate Brahman Darshan or not ? Do you mean to say, that a person who "talks" in duality is an Ajnani ? If that is the logic then all Jnanis will reduce to Ajnani ! You can only talk in duality. There is no "talk" possible in Non-duality. Do you mean to say that Jnani doesn't see the world in duality ever ? Doesn't he talk ?By that same token Lord Krishna who is able to talk to Arjuna must be called an ajnAni too, since he *sees* Arjuna and all the warriors in the battle field. The same vishvarUpa must always be pratyaxa to Krishna too isnt it? So if you ask Krishna to describe he will also describe it the way Arjuna has. Does that mean Krishna is an ajnAni?
Visvarupa Darshan is just an interaction in duality .... the only thing great about it is that Arjuna sees everything in the world within Lord Krishna. The Divya Chakshus are needed to see this because you can't see such a huge & "alaukik" thing with your eyes. This "alaukik" Darshan was to make Arjuna aware of the "Isavara-shakti" of Lord Krishna. Let's not forget that Arjuna is not Jnani yet i.e. he is not established in Non-duality. That is why Lord Krishna says, "You learn that Jnan from the Jnani sages i.e. the self-realised souls. By serving them, by asking them with due respect, those self realised souls will impart you the knowledge of Atma-jnan/real knowledge. Having obtained real knowledge from such a self-realized soul, you will never fall again into such illusion, for by this knowledge you will see that all living beings in Atman, not different from me."
Thw words Ananatam, axaram & paramam are used in duality as well. You can hear many bhakti songs wherein these words are used. That doesn't prove that the singer is established in Non-duality. Don't get confused by use of same words at different places. Same words at different places many a times carry different meanings.The visual is there because Arjuna sees world as a reflection of the Self, and the Self itself cannot be described except that Arjuna calls it anantaM, axaraM, paramaM etc
There is no reason for Arjuna to tell someone what he is not seeing. He is talking to Lord Krishna & to nobody else. Why will he say something which he is not seeing ? There appears absolutely no compulsion.Arjuna is giving a description of dualty that he percieves in the lower states. If he describes nothing, then we would have to assume that he realized nothing.
This logic is not correct. The Darshan is by the grace of Lord Krishna & it is dependent on what He wants to show to Arjuna (& not what our logic says) .... he keeps on saying this too in the verses. Let's not forget that Mother Yashoda too saw the entire Universe in the mouth of Lord Krishna .... with your logic this also couldn't be possible.the visvarUpa can never be seen external to onself - this needs to be remembered as it will create a huge logical paradox as explained above.
I don't agree with this equation. This shows that there exists something named as "k" which is more than SELF. This equation also shows the source of all your confusion. "Maya" is not separate from SELF.Another thing that has to be known is that Self and mAyA are related by an equation of the form;
Self + mAyA = k
Let's remember that the Visvarupa was "seen" not only by Arjuna but also by Sanjay. Shall we assume thar Sanjay too got established in Non-duality ?
Again, this Visvarupa was not permanent but had been aquired by Lord Krishna for a special purpose ..... "Kaalosmi lok kshaykritpravriddho ....". So, when the rupa (i.e. form) was not permanent but temporary & subject to change then how it could it be "Darshan" of the Absolute ? By definition, the Absolute is what never changes whereas the World is what keeps on changing its form. Changes are possible only in the World/ in duality & not in the absolute.
Regards
Last edited by devotee; 25 January 2008 at 12:24 PM. Reason: spelling corrections
"Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"
*pats cat and listens to purring*
yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .
It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste devotee, RL, atanu ZN, (et.al)
As atanu suggested earlier this may not be a debate...
for those that follow along and are trying to comprehend the subject at hand , perhaps adding definitions of words or of at least the core-hub words that make your posts a conversation such as:
Visvarupa Darshan - if we take some of the components:
viSNu + rUpa
viSNu = all pervading some say all pervader.
rUPa = form, shape , figure; formed or composed of
So Visvarupa is the All Pervading Form.. we call this/Him Visnu (viSNu).
And Darshan ( some write darSana) is sight or vision It is associated with auspicious sight or vision, no less.
So this key term that has been at the crux of the conversation for the last few posts at least is Visvarupa Darshan, the vision or sight of the All pervading form ( a blessing no doubt to behold).
[ BG, note no bold letters were used! ]
HDF Members, this was one of the requests we recieved from the group-at-large that added value to an HDF post i.e. defining terms.
Many appreciate the wisdom, POV, and the time you folks take to think the posts through; adding a few seconds more on definitions will enrich the experience.
Perhaps with the definitions, we can ask satay or I will be glad to assist to 'vacuum up' the definitions and at them to our lexicon. Perhaps that is a prudent activity too.
pranams
यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
because you are identical with śiva
_
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