Sanskrit and Tamil -- Which one is older?

[Believer]

Now you tell me by logic which should be older.

Love and best wishes

If it ignites passions and pits one Indian against another, do we really need to talk about it? In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?

In the name of your "Love and best wishes", can we make this into a non-issue?

[kallol]

If it ignites passions and pits one Indian against another, do we really need to talk about it? In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?

In the name of your "Love and best wishes", can we make this into a non-issue?

Thanks Believer,

Yes this is a non issue for today.

Unfortunately this theory of "non issue" prevents us to know ourselves better. Thus we become dependent of other's version of our history. And without history, we lose our spiritual base, which has been the strength of India.

Neither I am from south nor from north. But as a scientist I see it from common sense and the discoveries.

Anyway I would not extend my views in this thread.

Love and best wishes

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: The Sinhalese and Tamils have been debating "Who got to this island first?" for a long time, and look at that outcome. Of course, neither is correct, as the Veddas were the aboriginals.

Such arguments aren't at all necessary or wise.

Aum namasivaya

[renuka]

The eternal word is AUM and creation came into being.
what more we need to say.
see the very fact that we Hindus of any origin right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari are showered with Sanskrit words right from conception till death shows that Sanskrit is in our very breath(incidently even our breath SOHAM is made up of Sa and Aham) Sa(He) Aham(I)
Anyway for those who disagree on the status of Sanskrit being the Jaganmata of languages..just remember that in the Sound of Silence is the Voice of God.
So no language needed.

[Rationalist]

I have been reading a little on the origin of the languages and it seems to me that the undeciphered script from the Indus Valley Civilization is apparently a 'Dravidian' script which means it was an early form of Tamil (?).

The archeological findings in the IVC show that the language used then was some Dravidian language and not Sanskrit. This is one of the major weapons the anti-Hindu/anti-Indian 'scholars' (i.e.Witzel) use to insist that Sanskrit was not indigenous to geographical 'India'; and therefore validating the Aryan Invasion Theory. Sanskrit was obviously a major part of Aryavarta and although that may have included regions currently outside geographical 'India', it was still an integral part of the Subcontinent.

The current explanations and 'scholarly' works are so inadequate and rather marred with blatant eurocentricity that getting a definitive answer seems out of the question. They (western 'scholars') link Sanskrit to some "indo-european" (how convenient) family of languages that apparently pre-dates Sanskrit. Some sources claim that the earliest written source of Sanskrit was ~1500 BCE.

This is the date given to the Rig Veda which seems absolutely ridiculous! Now I've read that Sage Agastya codified both Sanskrit and Tamil and since both share no direct relation to each other, it is quite interesting to probe into their origins. Also, the Sumerian script seems to be closely related to the (early) Tamil script so perhaps there was some connection (?) between the civilizations.

Anyway, do the scriptures talk about the origins of either language? If so, what do they say (infer)? The dating of anything to do with the History of Aryavarta is so aggravating since they never kept any records; or those records were destroyed by the marauding muslims and christians. Tamil Nadu is the only state where education in Hindi is not enforced. In fact, the Tamil Nadu govt., run by dalits, is so anti-Sanskrit that they wanted the priests in the temples to recite the shlokas in tamil! Of course, that was out of the question but it certainly is interesting that both Tamil & Sanskrit gave birth to all the other languages in India.

The question of ages comes into concern here and has always bugged me. According to the scriptures, the first Manvantara of Svayambhuva Manu is supposed to have existed almost 2 BILLION (solar) years ago! Is that even remotely true/possible? That human beings, quite advanced I might add, existed on earth almost 2 billion years ago? And they must have spoken Sanskrit because they had the Vedas etc. Any further speculation on this?

As some of my Tamil friends used to say, "Agastya codified Tamil in the morning and Sanskrit in the evening; thus Tamil is superior"! HAHAHAH.

Subham.

Who cares about what is older? Its all Indian and we should be proud that regardless of whether Sanskrit or Tamil are proven to be older than the other.

[realdemigod]

Tamil is one of the oldest languages for sure but it can't be compared to Sanskrit. The theory of Proto-Dravidian language which gave birth to all Dravidian languages and became obsolete..is a rational way of thinking but unless disproved nobody can claim the supremacy of one Dravidian language over others. If early kings of South India chose to patron Tamil while ignoring other languages and made that language official doesn't mean it's the oldest language which gave birth to all languages..and it is sheer foolishness to think so. I even had arguments with some of my Tamil friends who made up their mind that Sanskrit evolved from Tamil.

Sanskrit is timeless as most advanced studies related to science, cosmos were done in Sanskrit but not Tamil but as it comes down to one's ego.. most Tamil people will always be of the opinion that their language is superior of all.

[Sahasranama]

The self proclaimed dalits from TN can be really arrogant about Tamil supremacy and even go as far as burning themselves on the stake to protest against Hindi/Sanskrit. The Tamils have been very manipulative in extorting the government to recognise their language as "classical," even before that honour was given to Sanskrit. This has only caused government funds to be pulled away from promoting and researching Sanskrit and Hindi. I agree with Tamil politician Subramaniam Swamy from the Janata Party that Hindi in its highly Sanskritised form should be the national language of India, otherwise English is the only realistic alternative for Indians to talk to each other.

[realdemigod]

The self proclaimed dalits from TN can be really arrogant about Tamil supremacy and even go as far as burning themselves on the stake to protest against Hindi/Sanskrit. The Tamils have been very manipulative in extorting the government to recognise their language as "classical," even before that honour was given to Sanskrit. This has only caused government funds to be pulled away from promoting and researching Sanskrit and Hindi. I agree with Tamil politician Subramaniam Swamy from the Janata Party that Hindi in its highly Sanskritised form should be the national language of India, otherwise English is the only realistic alternative for Indians to talk to each other.

I totally agree but most people including my flatmate who have had bad experiences when lived in North India..having encountered rude people..vehemently hates Hindi and support Tamil..just being emotional rather than being rational. Also I have noticed when you open Hindu Chennai edition it's quite often someone or other of course a Tamil archaeologist or historian will come up with something new showing the supremacy of their language.

People don't realise that when you are onto something to prove you will do everything possible even concoct new stories as history hates vacuum rather than looking at point of view of others (non Tamil historians or archaeologists).

[TatTvamAsi]

The self proclaimed dalits from TN can be really arrogant about Tamil supremacy and even go as far as burning themselves on the stake to protest against Hindi/Sanskrit. The Tamils have been very manipulative in extorting the government to recognise their language as "classical," even before that honour was given to Sanskrit. This has only caused government funds to be pulled away from promoting and researching Sanskrit and Hindi. I agree with Tamil politician Subramaniam Swamy from the Janata Party that Hindi in its highly Sanskritised form should be the national language of India, otherwise English is the only realistic alternative for Indians to talk to each other.

This is absolute bunk.

Although there were agitations against Hindi being imposed on Tamils in the 1930s and 1960s, Tamil Nadu did not "manipulate" the government to declare it a classical language. Tamil is an ancient language that has very strong literature dating back thousands of years.

Of course, as Hindus, we consider Sanskrit devabASyA so that is not of question and Tamil dalits etc. hate Hindus so they discredit Sanskrit.

But Hindi? You must be joking. Hindi is an amalgam of many different languages and has several mleccha influences (farsi, arabic etc.). It is also a MUCH younger language than Tamil. That is why there was resistance to adopting it as a "national" language. Hindi is analogous to English; a mishmash of so many languages that although it is spoken by a lot of people (only 43% of Indians speak Hindi btw), it in no way can be considered a classical language.

Sanskrit should be declared the national language and gives everyone an opportunity to connect with the ancient heritage of India. Declaring Sanskrit as the national language will make Indians more united anyway. Of course, dalits, muslims, christians, and jews will howl but who cares about them anyway?

This is the kind of arrogance that Tamil people agitated against. Hindi is a "chota" language compared to Tamil. The grammar of Tamil is highly developed and is only eclipsed by that of Sanskrit.

[Believer]

Namaste,

When a person is in the EIBF (Emotion Induced Brain Freeze) mode, all common sense goes out the door.

First of all, Hindi is not a mish-mash of 'things'. Hindustani, the street version of Hindi is a mish-mash. So, let us use the correct terminology.

Secondly, for unity, commonality has to be found and established as the rule. For language, that commonality is Hindi. Granted that there are other ancient and more respectable languages like Tamil and Sanskrit and Bengali and.... But you can't re-educate the entire population with a new language. It is just not practical. Every time I hear some well educated, smart people recommending Sanskrit as the national language, I have to search their heads. And the answer is always - if it can't be my native tongue, then I will not vote for Hindi either, so we will just pull this dream out of the air and propose Sanskrit. Guys, why don't you face the fact that Hindi, by virtue of it being the most spoken language, is the only choice. Having reservations about Hindi, or having outright hatred towards it, is couched in glowing terms as love for Sanskrit, and out pops the mantra, 'Sanskrit should be national language'. If we dismiss this pipe dream and look at the reality, there is no alternative to Hindi to unite the country. Of course, Tamil dalits would keep showing their hatred towards it, and the Tamil brahmins would oppose it because of their "love" for Tamil. It is okay to have love for ones native tongue. But that should not become hatred for everything else. Anti Hindi-ism is the only thing that brings together, the otherwise adversaries, that the Tamil brahmins and the Tamil dalits are.

Why can't educated people do some soul searching?
Why can't the smart people use common sense and realize what is practical, rather than suggesting some outlandish, non-implementable non-sense?
Why is this hatred against Hindi couched in flowery accolades for Sanskrit?
Why do we tend to think with our brains frozen?
How in the world are you going to teach Sanskrit to one billion plus people, and who would pay for that? Does economics ever enter your heads?
Are the Tamil dalits going to roll over and play dead when Sanskrit is imposed on them?

I could care less if India has a national language or not; or if it does which one is given that status, but for god's sake, shed your hatred and be practical.

Pranam.

PS This is all off-topic, as the thread was for Sanskrit/Tamil antiquity. My apologies.